Hell question

Ann77 · Jun 30, 2020

I'm not a Lutheran, I'm somewhat in-between Lutheran and Reformed. I'm interested in your take on this.

Does God create people to send to hell and then still calls for them to repent when they're unable to? Would this make God responsible for evil? I’ve been told this by many Calvinists. It's frightening me. I've seen many verses like Roman's 9:11 to support this.

Gregorikos · Jun 30, 2020

Ann77 said:
I'm not a Lutheran, I'm somewhat in-between Lutheran and Reformed. I'm interested in your take on this.

Does God create people to send to hell and then still calls for them to repent when they're unable to? Would this make God responsible for evil? Someone told me this. It's frightening me. I've seen many verses like Roman's 9:11 to support this.

God didn't make hell for people. He made it for the devil. Matthew 25:41

And his will is that everyone be saved. 2 Peter 3:9

Ann77 · Jun 30, 2020

Gregorikos said:
God didn't make hell for people. He made it for the devil. Matthew 25:41

And his will is that everyone be saved. 2 Peter 3:9

How do you deal with Proverbs 16:4 and Romans 9:11?

Daniel9v9 · Jul 1, 2020

The Lutheran understanding of salvation and damnation is this:

Salvation, from beginning to end, is entirely of God. Damnation, however, from beginning to end, is entirely of man. So, God is not the source of evil; He does not create, bestow or impute sin upon man, nor create people for damnation, but anyone who resists God's grace, namely, the person and works of Jesus Christ, through the message of the Gospel, brought by the Holy Spirit, are already condemned.

As Scriptures plainly says, whoever believes will be saved, but whoever does not believe is already condemned. John 3:16-18 Mark 16:16

I think what you're referring to is the teaching of High Calvinism, which the Lutheran Church emphatically rejects.

Simply explained: Calvinists rightly teaches that salvation is entirely by God's grace (monergism), but are in error in their (various) teachings of election for damnation, or God passing over people. That's not what Romans 9 teaches. The Gospel is for everyone, not just the elect. Arminians, on the other hand, a counter-reaction movement to Calvinism, rightly teaches that damnation is by the will and work of man, but wrongly attribute free will in matters of salvation (synergism), as if a dead person can will himself to life. That is, our will is not the instrument of conversion, it's the object of conversion. God makes willing out of the unwilling; He makes the dead alive.

So, both the Calvinistic system and the Arminian system are logical in their own right, but not entirely Biblical, and regrettably, they ultimately both can be the source of confusion and doubt. The Lutheran view embraces the paradox as an article of faith, as it is recognised that there are many mysteries in Scripture we cannot fully understand, yet we uphold it as true.

klutedavid · Jul 1, 2020

Ann77 said:
How do you deal with Proverbs 16:4 and Romans 9:11?

This is what Paul has been arguing through the letter to the Romans.

Romans 9:30:31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

Paul is explaining that it is God's call, God's election, through and in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the law.

Faith not works, faith and not man's will.

Now with this in mind, i.e., God's purpose; that faith is the platform of salvation, not works of the law.

Romans 9:11-12
For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God's is choosing the lineage of Jacob for His ultimate purpose, the gift of the Christ. The important phrase 'so that God’s purpose'.

Choosing Jacob is not about election to salvation but His purpose through Jacob, ultimately the Christ.

Andrewn · Jul 1, 2020

I agree with all the above comments and would like to add the following notes:

Ann77 said:
Does God create people to send to hell and then still calls for them to repent when they're unable to? Would this make God responsible for evil? Someone told me this. It's frightening me. I've seen many verses like Roman's 9:11 to support this.

This passage is not about personal salvation but about the selection of a nation / Israel which is now surpassed by the selection of Gentiles to be the Church of God. We know this to be the case from comparing Gen 12:3 and Mal 1:2-3 and from Paul's arguments in Rom 9 and other chapters. Reformed are wrong. Stick with Lutherans.

Ann77 said:
How do you deal with Proverbs 16:4 and Romans 9:11?

In Pro 16:4, God doesn't make people wicked but He destines the wicked to punishment.

Ann77 · Jul 1, 2020

Thanks everyone for your response.

Since both hyper and High Calvinism reject the permissive will of God, is it true that they think God can't know anything unless He decreed every choice and thought in His creation? I hear from them that not even our thoughts are our own

Wouldn't this mean, in the book of Job, when God is talking to satan, He would be really having a one-on-one conversation with Himself since God put the thoughts in satan's mind via a decree?

That sounds blasphemous. I don't understand how this makes any sense.

Andrewn · Jul 1, 2020

Ann77 said:
Since both hyper and High Calvinism reject the permissive will of God, is it true that they think God can't know anything unless He decreed every choice and thought in His creation? I hear from them that not even our thoughts are our own

Wouldn't this mean, in the book of Job, when God is talking to satan, He would be really having a one-on-one conversation with Himself since God put the thoughts in satan's mind via a decree?

That sounds blasphemous. I don't understand how this makes any sense.

There are several Calvinist forums, perhaps someone there can comment about this. I attended a Reformed church for over 2 years and never heard anything that I would disagree with. But reading about their theology, there are incorrect beliefs.

J_B_ · Jul 10, 2020

Ann77 said:
Thanks everyone for your response.

Since both hyper and High Calvinism reject the permissive will of God, is it true that they think God can't know anything unless He decreed every choice and thought in His creation? I hear from them that not even our thoughts are our own

Wouldn't this mean, in the book of Job, when God is talking to satan, He would be really having a one-on-one conversation with Himself since God put the thoughts in satan's mind via a decree?

That sounds blasphemous. I don't understand how this makes any sense.

Since Lutherans don't subscribe to a Reformed theology, they don't agree with these sorts of things. You're right. It doesn't make sense.

Silverback · Aug 5, 2020

Gregorikos said:
God didn't make hell for people. He made it for the devil. Matthew 25:41

And his will is that everyone be saved. 2 Peter 3:9

I respect your opiniom, but only the elect will be saved, whose names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world .

Ann77 · Aug 12, 2020

@Daniel9v9 would be possible to PM you?

Daniel9v9 · Aug 12, 2020

Ann77 said:
@Daniel9v9 would be possible to PM you?

Sure, you can!

Ann77 · Aug 13, 2020

Does anyone understand Jude 1:4? It's kinda causing me a bit of heartache.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Emphasis added

Andrewn · Aug 14, 2020

Ann77 said:
Does anyone understand Jude 1:4? It's kinda causing me a bit of heartache.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Emphasis added

Jud 1:4 is about false teachers who build their multi-million dollar empires.

tampasteve · Aug 14, 2020

Andrewn said:
Jud 1:4 is about false teachers who build their multi-million dollar empires.

But that doesn't happen in Christianity!

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 15, 2020

Ann77 said:
Thanks everyone for your response.

Since both hyper and High Calvinism reject the permissive will of God, is it true that they think God can't know anything unless He decreed every choice and thought in His creation? I hear from them that not even our thoughts are our own

Wouldn't this mean, in the book of Job, when God is talking to satan, He would be really having a one-on-one conversation with Himself since God put the thoughts in satan's mind via a decree?

That sounds blasphemous. I don't understand how this makes any sense.

The Calvinist position of double predestination does not make sense. Think about it; God created us in His image; this includes free will. Jesus died of all; God desires that all are saved; many, however, chose through their "free will" to defy God, reject the Holy Spirit, and remain unrepentant. While we can not chose to believe, we can chose not to. Our salvation is of God, if we are damned, that is on us, not on God.

Andrewn · Aug 15, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
The Calvinist position of double predestination does not make sense.

does the Lutheran single predestination make more sense?

Ann77 · Aug 15, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
The Calvinist position of double predestination does not make sense. Think about it; God created us in His image; this includes free will. Jesus died of all; God desires that all are saved; many, however, chose through their "free will" to defy God, reject the Holy Spirit, and remain unrepentant. While we can not chose to believe, we can chose not to. Our salvation is of God, if we are damned, that is on us, not on God.

So is it when the Holy Spirit is drawing, you are able to deny or respond? I know The Calvinist would define Free-will differently. God Has free will and yet at the same time, He is incapable of sinning. Ugh, this one is a tough one to flush out for me.

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 16, 2020

Andrewn said:
does the Lutheran single predestination make more sense?

Yes; because with double predestination; there is not hope; we don't know.

Ann77 said:
So is it when the Holy Spirit is drawing, you are able to deny or respond? I know The Calvinist would define Free-will differently. God Has free will and yet at the same time, He is incapable of sinning. Ugh, this one is a tough one to flush out for me.

Prodigal Son. He, like we are already Gods; he made us, we are His children. Like the son, we to can turn away and become estranged from God. After we fall away, we can repent; when we repent, even though we wasted the Grace God had given to us, He had infinite grace, and graciously imparts it on the penitent, regardless of how badly and completely we had previously rejected Him and his gifts.

Andrewn · Aug 16, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Yes; because with double predestination; there is not hope; we don't know.

This is what I don't understand, how does single Predestination give hope to the unelect? Can they get saved? If they can, then that is Arminianism.

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