BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Many people quote this verse, but ignore the rest of the chapter.

Several times in the chapter Christ contrasts the Old Covenant to the New Covenant by quoting the Old Covenant and then adding, "But I say...".


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Why do people also ignore Galatians 3, and Galatians 4?

Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

In the next chapter Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".


.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟73,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
True...forgiveness was accepted prior to 30 AD....but, as Moses typified....(and as the author of Hebrews wrote) the process of the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) wasn't complete....or made perfect until 70 AD....when the High Priest Jesus (Son of Man) reappeared from the Holy of Holies.

The people were "eagerly awaiting" the reappearance of the High Priest that announced the confirmation of forgiveness of sin. Just because the destruction was literally carried out by people doesn't mean God didn't have sovereinty over the situation. This had been prophesied for centuries....even millenia...prior to it happening. The old testament is full of other examples of God judging nations through war of others.

Moses and Aaron then went into the Tent of Meeting. When they came out, they blessed the people; and the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people. Fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat portions on the altar. And when all the people saw it, they shouted for joy and fell facedown." (Leviticus 9:23-24)​
It would really be helpful if there was a book in the NT, that claims all this. There is not, and hearing it for the first time 1990 years later, just does not ring true. Sorry, but this just sounds like Internet sensationalism. Most of my post probably sound that way as well, but many are dead set in their theology. Hopefully not too dead set, when the Lamb soon returns and straightens out this eschatological mess, the church has immersed herself in.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It would really be helpful if there was a book in the NT, that claims all this
Well....the Bible isn’t a text book or manual with a table of contents......but the whole story testifies of Him.

From Jesus (recorded in New Testament):

John 5:39~ “You search the Scriptures…and it is they that bear witness about me”

.....and from Luke:
Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining from all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."
(Luke 24:27).

Here's an article that demonstrates how the book of Hebrews reveals how the temporary Levitical priesthood compares to Christ: The Day of Atonement was a Copy of Christ's Atonement
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We're experiencing a mature church. That wasn't the case from 30 AD-70 AD. The Law hadn't been removed.

Where did Paul talk about two different plans of salvation, one under the Old Covenant, and one under the New Covenant during the time between 30AD and 70 AD?

In Galatians 3:16-29 Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

In Galatians 4:24-31 Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage". At the end of the passage Paul makes it plain that an inheritance does not come through the Old Covenant.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.



The battle between the two covenants is found below.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


There is no evidence that anyone was saved without faith in Christ between 30AD and 70 AD.

.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Gup20
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Where did Paul talk about two different plans of salvation, one under the Old Covenant, and one under the New Covenant
I never posted anything about two different plans of salvation. What I did post is that salvation was a process.....and the Judeo Christian church was maturing in the first century.

The Old Covenant was only a tutor....there was never salvation under the old covenant.

Galatians 3:24 ~ Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
In Galatians 4:24-31 Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage". At the end of the passage Paul makes it plain that an inheritance does not come through the Old Covenant.
Agreed.

As i posted....the Law was a tutor....a trainer to lead them to Christ. Once Christ came in the flesh....all that the Law and prophets had spoken of was revealed more fully. They didn't need their "training wheels " any longer.....but we can see that ingrained teaching from childhood takes a while to let go (and God is gracious). Even Peter needed time to transition.

According to Bible Hub - this took place 7 years after the Cross:
Acts 10:11-16
He [Peter] saw heaven open and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, as well as birds of the air. Then a voice said to him: “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”“No, Lord!” Peter answered. “I have never eaten anything impured or unclean.”1
The voice spoke to him a second time: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” This happened three times, and all at once the sheet was taken back up into heaven.

V.27-28 ~ As Peter talked with him, he went inside and found many people gathered together. He said to them, “
You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean."

 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I said, "The Law hadn't been removed"

BABEREAN2 responded that, "Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage"

We've had this discussion a few times. Something has to be present in order to cast it out. The analogy goes back to when both of Abraham's sons were living in the same household and Sarah had urged Abraham to cast out his oldest son Ishmael (who represented a self righteous act).
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
According to Bible Hub - this took place 7 years after the Cross:
Acts 10:11-16
He [Peter] saw heaven open and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, as well as birds of the air. Then a voice said to him: “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”“No, Lord!” Peter answered. “I have never eaten anything impured or unclean.”1
The voice spoke to him a second time: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” This happened three times, and all at once the sheet was taken back up into heaven.

V.27-28 ~ As Peter talked with him, he went inside and found many people gathered together. He said to them, “
You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean."


How did Bible Hub come up with 7 years after the Cross?

We have a timeline below for Paul.

Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
How did Bible Hub come up with 7 years after the Cross?

We have a timeline below for Paul.
I'd presume the Bible Hub timeline has been formed from information historians have pieced together from bits of information revealed by writers like Luke.

The Scripture you shared isn't based on time....years. That's not a timeline. Verse
18 doesn't give a reference as to what year is meant by "three years after".

Here's another resource: Blue Letter Bible Timeline: "Acts and the Epistles Chronology - Study Resources" Acts and the Epistles Chronology - Study Resources
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Well....the Bible isn’t a text book or manual with a table of contents......but the whole story testifies of Him.

From Jesus (recorded in New Testament):

John 5:39~ “You search the Scriptures…and it is they that bear witness about me”

.....and from Luke:
Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining from all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."
(Luke 24:27).

Here's an article that demonstrates how the book of Hebrews reveals how the temporary Levitical priesthood compares to Christ: The Day of Atonement was a Copy of Christ's Atonement

I was talking about Rome and 70AD.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I was talking about Rome and 70AD.
Take a look at what Jesus had said....recorded in Luke 21. The whole context begins in v. 5

5As some of the disciples were remarking how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and consecrated gifts, Jesus said, 6As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
.....and that's tied to the completion of redemption here:

28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Josephus, the Jewish historian who gives us the clearest first hand account of Jerusalem’s fall, reports that the Jewish Christians in Judea heeded Jesus’ warning. When the city and temple fell, more than one million Jews died. But Jewish Christians, by and large, were not among them, for they had already fled the city when they saw the Romans coming. An Abomination in the Temple



 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Take a look at what Jesus had said....recorded in Luke 21. The whole context begins in v. 5

5As some of the disciples were remarking how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and consecrated gifts, Jesus said, 6As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
.....and that's tied to the completion of redemption here:

28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Josephus, the Jewish historian who gives us the clearest first hand account of Jerusalem’s fall, reports that the Jewish Christians in Judea heeded Jesus’ warning. When the city and temple fell, more than one million Jews died. But Jewish Christians, by and large, were not among them, for they had already fled the city when they saw the Romans coming. An Abomination in the Temple

Josephus was not a NT author inspired by the Holy Spirit. I am saying the church and Holy Spirit never mentioned 70AD fulfilled any prophecy. They said Jesus fulfilled many prophesies, yet they failed to declare that Rome fulfilled anything other than what Josephus claims, who was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Daniel's 10 toes had not even been fulfilled. Only until the toes are fulfilled, the time of the Gentiles will keep on going, and the same church at 70AD, is the same believers, with the same flesh and sinful nature as now 1950 years later. Believers are still being changed by the Holy Spirit quickening them into the body of Christ. Nothing has changed since Jesus' ascension in 30AD. The end of the church is very soon. Then it will be a totally different world in the next Millennium.

Adam's descendants will be free from the punishment of sin and death that Adam brought into the world. Even Satan will be bound. When Adam disobeyed, Satan was in the Garden tempting Eve. Satan will not interfere for 1000 years. This end is not just about the church. It is about all of creation groaning under the burden of sin. Why amil are so stuck on it all being about a sinful church, is unbelievable. The church is being changed and resisting Satan, with the power of the Holy Spirit. The next Millennium has nothing to do with the church.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Josephus was not a NT author inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I never claimed Josephus was. He was a historian....and historians report facts without bias or agenda.
I am saying the church and Holy Spirit never mentioned 70AD fulfilled any prophecy. They said Jesus fulfilled many prophesies, yet they failed to declare that Rome fulfilled anything other than what Josephus claims, who was not inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The church did (not a lot of modern churches...but historical churches like the Orthodox do). The Bible was authored prior to 70 AD.
 
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟73,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I never claimed Josephus was. He was a historian....and historians report facts without bias or agenda.

The church did (not a lot of modern churches...but historical churches like the Orthodox do). The Bible was authored prior to 70 AD.

According to Josephus, he was not a historian. He claimed to be a Pharisee. He joined the sect of the Pharisees at the age of 19 and was taught by the Pharisees. He was taught thier doctrines and he was taught thier beliefs.He was taught commontaries and thier interpretations of the prophets.

Do you believe the Pharisees report facts without bias?

PS, according to Josephus the pharisee, the abomination that causes desolation was a pig sacrificed in a stone temple in 167 bc.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I never claimed Josephus was. He was a historian....and historians report facts without bias or agenda.

The church did (not a lot of modern churches...but historical churches like the Orthodox do). The Bible was authored prior to 70 AD.
You quoted Josephus. Do you have any proof on the authorship and timing of the NT prior to 70AD?
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Daniel's 10 toes had not even been fulfilled
The timing of Daniel's prophecy is from this passage:

Daniel 7:13-14
I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed

Jesus said to the religious leaders just prior to the Cross:

Matthew 26:64 ~ But I say to all of you: "From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Jesus said to His disciples after His resurrection:

Matthew 28:18
Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Daniel 7:13-14
I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed
To see the significance of the term "Son of Man"....i believe this video from the Bible Project explains it well:

 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
According to Josephus, he was not a historian. He claimed to be a Pharisee. He joined the sect of the Pharisees at the age of 19 and was taught by the Pharisees. He was taught thier doctrines and he was taught thier beliefs.He was taught commontaries and thier interpretations of the prophets.

Do you believe the Pharisees report facts without bias?

PS, according to Josephus the pharisee, the abomination that causes desolation was a pig sacrificed in a stone temple in 167 bc.
Yes....Josephus was also a Pharisee....which, IMO, makes it more amazing what he reported. I believe he wrote that only God could have accomplished the destruction (using humans as His agents). IOW....Josephus witnessed these things first-hand and realized the sovereignty of God.

A Pharisee with an agenda wouldn't give the credit to God.

Fellow poster, JGR, posted this about the writing of Josephus: Daniel's 70th week

There were two temples destroyed....remember?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟73,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Yes....Josephus was also a Pharisee....which, IMO, makes it more amazing what he reported. I believe he wrote that only God could have accomplished the destruction (using humans as His agents). IOW....Josephus witnessed these things first-hand and realized the sovereignty of God.

There were two temples destroyed....remember?

What Josephus said was the abomination of desolation had nothing to do with any temple being destroyed. Remember?

According to Josephus, antiquities of the Jews, the abomination of desolation was a pig being sacrificed in 167 bc. No temple was destroyed in 167 bc.
Now if Josephus is right and reported the facts as you say then Jesus would be wrong.

Who would you think is correct about Daniels abomination of desolation, Jesus or Josephus?
 
Upvote 0