LDS The Futile Attempt by Mormons to Earn God's Grace

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Anyone can and should keep the commandments:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:2 - 5)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

There is no reason to sin and God is the judge. Jesus said sin no more and He meant it.

And everyone who claims he doesn't ever sin is sinning.
 
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He is the way

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And everyone who claims he doesn't ever sin is sinning.
Almost everyone has sinned, but everyone needs to stop sinning:

(New Testament | Romans 6:2 - 6)

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:21 - 22)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
 
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drstevej

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ViaCrucis

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Almost everyone has sinned, but everyone needs to stop sinning:

(New Testament | Romans 6:2 - 6)

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:21 - 22)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

All a leopard needs to do is lose its spots.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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People can change. Having worked at the jail for three years, I have seen it happen first hand.

Oh sure. People are pretty malleable, behavior can be modified, all very good things of course. But a sinner can no more stop sinning than a leopard can change its spots.

Sure, a sinner can stop doing certain sins. Or entirely avoid certain sins. There are a whole bunch of sins which I've never done. But what sinner has stopped sinning altogether? In thought, in word, and in deed?

I've never killed anyone, but I've been angry.
The last time I hit another person I was a child, but I've held grudges.
When someone has attacked me verbally, I may bite my tongue a lot of the time--but not every time; and I certainly still think and feel in ways which are unloving toward those who injured me.
I have remained bitter toward some people, though I have sought and prayed to be merciful, to forgive, and have begged God to give me a more compassionate heart that I might learn to give up my bitterness.

Let me know when you find a sinner who stopped sinning altogether, once you do I'll show you someone who is very good at pretending.

I've never met or known a righteous person.
I've met liars.
I've met the deluded.
I've met people who are even pretty good at hiding their sin.
But I've never met a righteous person, and the reason for that is because they don't exist. Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; there is not one who is righteous, not even one.

Now, for myself, I would rather be an honest sinner than a lying one. That I might openly profess my wretchedness before both God and man, because I am what I am. A naked and wretched beggar.

I'm a sinner. I'm a big sinner.
And so are you.
And so is everyone else.

The choice isn't between being a sinner or a non-sinner; the choice is between being an honest sinner or a lying one.

Be an honest sinner, and confess your sins to God. He is merciful and just to forgive us of all unrighteousness.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Oh sure. People are pretty malleable, behavior can be modified, all very good things of course. But a sinner can no more stop sinning than a leopard can change its spots.

Sure, a sinner can stop doing certain sins. Or entirely avoid certain sins. There are a whole bunch of sins which I've never done. But what sinner has stopped sinning altogether? In thought, in word, and in deed?

I've never killed anyone, but I've been angry.
The last time I hit another person I was a child, but I've held grudges.
When someone has attacked me verbally, I may bite my tongue a lot of the time--but not every time; and I certainly still think and feel in ways which are unloving toward those who injured me.
I have remained bitter toward some people, though I have sought and prayed to be merciful, to forgive, and have begged God to give me a more compassionate heart that I might learn to give up my bitterness.

Let me know when you find a sinner who stopped sinning altogether, once you do I'll show you someone who is very good at pretending.

I've never met or known a righteous person.
I've met liars.
I've met the deluded.
I've met people who are even pretty good at hiding their sin.
But I've never met a righteous person, and the reason for that is because they don't exist. Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; there is not one who is righteous, not even one.

Now, for myself, I would rather be an honest sinner than a lying one. That I might openly profess my wretchedness before both God and man, because I am what I am. A naked and wretched beggar.

I'm a sinner. I'm a big sinner.
And so are you.
And so is everyone else.

The choice isn't between being a sinner or a non-sinner; the choice is between being an honest sinner or a lying one.

Be an honest sinner, and confess your sins to God. He is merciful and just to forgive us of all unrighteousness.

-CryptoLutheran
Jesus expected people to stop sinning:

(New Testament | John 5:14)

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

(New Testament | John 8:11)

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Moreover Jesus was an example to everyone, He said:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:2 - 5)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(New Testament | Matthew 5:48)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Jesus really expect the impossible?
 
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Ironhold

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Be an honest sinner, and confess your sins to God. He is merciful and just to forgive us of all unrighteousness.

-CryptoLutheran

"There's no way I'm ever going to run a marathon, so I'm just going to sit on the couch and eat cheese doodles by the case load."

Sounds silly, right?

...But that's the either/or dynamic a lot of people in this thread are trying to offer us.

You see, the idea is that each of us should be trying to be better than we were before.

It's understood that no one is perfect, but it's also understood that we can't use it as an excuse to stop us from trying.

My spine may, for example, may be too messed up to let me do serious physical exertion, but I try to keep myself in at least good enough shape to where I can still work as a delivery driver as the paper needs me to. (The raw bundles of papers can be up to 50 pounds apiece, a respectable amount of weight.)
 
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ViaCrucis

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"There's no way I'm ever going to run a marathon, so I'm just going to sit on the couch and eat cheese doodles by the case load."

Sounds silly, right?

Yes, it does. It's also not even remotely an accurate comparison.

...But that's the either/or dynamic a lot of people in this thread are trying to offer us.

You see, the idea is that each of us should be trying to be better than we were before.

Define better.

It's understood that no one is perfect, but it's also understood that we can't use it as an excuse to stop us from trying.

At no point did I suggest we shouldn't try to sin less, or shouldn't try to be obedient to God.

But a proper understanding of the dichotomy between Law and Gospel ensures that we never deceive ourselves into thinking that we have somehow attained righteousness through our own efforts. Because such righteousness is not possible for sinners.

My spine may, for example, may be too messed up to let me do serious physical exertion, but I try to keep myself in at least good enough shape to where I can still work as a delivery driver as the paper needs me to. (The raw bundles of papers can be up to 50 pounds apiece, a respectable amount of weight.)

The question is not should we try to be faithful to the commandments of God, because of course we should. In fact it's not even an option, it's a command, "Do this". God doesn't ask, He commands that we love others.

The question is can we, as sinners, be righteous through our own ability as the Law commands us?

Because whenever I see people answer that question in the affirmative one several things usually happens:

1) God's Law is denied, and the commandments of God become more like helpful suggestions rather than absolute commands, I mean, sure God says I'm supposed to love my neighbor as myself, but isn't it enough that I at least make some sort of passing effort at being kinda nice to people?

2) We engage in a fun little game of cherry-picking commandments and also cherry-pick at our own sins. I mean, after all, I can't be that much of a sinner, it's not like I killed anyone.

3) Total delusion, as in, why yes I have become righteous, as long as I focus on how righteous I feel that's all that matters. And I feel pretty righteous, and anyone who is critical of my behavior or who tells me I'm sinning is an agent of the devil. I'm not sinning, I'm just making little mistakes.

4) Hopeless despair, I know I should be righteous because the Law tells me to be righteous, but I keep messing up. Why do I keep messing up? Maybe it's because I'm not saved, maybe it's because God doesn't love me, maybe it's because I haven't tried hard enough. But if nothing I do can make God love me more, if no matter how many times I try I keep failing--then what's the point? Maybe I am a hopeless lost cause and I should just give up.

Because here's something that never happens when someone thinks they can be righteous according to God's commandments--they actually become righteous. It doesn't happen.

At least number 4 starts to get us somewhere though, the first three are all pride. But at least with the fourth there's the realization that God's Law says "Do" but that I do not do it. The problem is leaving it at that. As though that's all there is: Law.

Because without the Gospel the Law is a death sentence. After all, the Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness more than light for their deeds were evil.

If we treat the Gospel as though it were just more law, then we not only don't preach the Gospel at all, but we are simply speaking more death. Death upon death, condemnation upon condemnation, sin upon sin. Preach more law, preach more death, preach more condemnation, and add sin to sin so that the sinner is even worse than he was before.

But preach the Gospel. I mean, the actual Gospel, and that's life. In fact it's eternal life.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus expected people to stop sinning:

(New Testament | John 5:14)

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

(New Testament | John 8:11)

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Moreover Jesus was an example to everyone, He said:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:2 - 5)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(New Testament | Matthew 5:48)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Jesus really expect the impossible?

So have you "sinned no more"?

And, yes, the Law demands perfect righteousness and perfect obedience. "Be perfect" is a command, anything less than that is our condemnation under the Law.

God does not say, "Oh, alright, since not murdering is so hard I guess you can murder a little bit." No, He says don't murder, and in fact, to even be angry at another person is murder. Don't even hate, not even a little bit; don't close your heart to someone, not even a little bit. The moment you set yourself against another person you have denied their humanity, closed yourself off from loving and serving them, and regard them as much as dead to you. Not only don't murder, but throw yourself away in love, abandoning yourself, giving up and laying down your life even for those who would despise you and have you nailed to a cross. That's the Law. That's what Jesus did, that's who Jesus is, that's why He is righteous and we are not. That's why He is good news, and our works are bad news.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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So have you "sinned no more"?

And, yes, the Law demands perfect righteousness and perfect obedience. "Be perfect" is a command, anything less than that is our condemnation under the Law.

God does not say, "Oh, alright, since not murdering is so hard I guess you can murder a little bit." No, He says don't murder, and in fact, to even be angry at another person is murder. Don't even hate, not even a little bit; don't close your heart to someone, not even a little bit. The moment you set yourself against another person you have denied their humanity, closed yourself off from loving and serving them, and regard them as much as dead to you. Not only don't murder, but throw yourself away in love, abandoning yourself, giving up and laying down your life even for those who would despise you and have you nailed to a cross. That's the Law. That's what Jesus did, that's who Jesus is, that's why He is righteous and we are not. That's why He is good news, and our works are bad news.

-CryptoLutheran
Bad works are bad news, good works are good news:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
 
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drstevej

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Bad works are bad news, good works are good news:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

THIS was the question:
So have you "sinned no more"?

Please answer.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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And everyone who claims he doesn't ever sin is sinning.

1 John 1:8-10
J.B. Phillips New Testament
Experience of living “in the light”
5-10 Here, then, is the message which we heard from him, and now proclaim to you: GOD IS LIGHT and no shadow of darkness can exist in him. Consequently, if we were to say that we enjoyed fellowship with him and still went on living in darkness, we should be both telling and living a lie. But if we really are living in the same light in which he eternally exists, then we have true fellowship with each other, and the blood which his Son shed for us keeps us clean from all sin. If we refuse to admit that we are sinners, then we live in a world of illusion and truth becomes a stranger to us. But if we freely admit that we have sinned, we find God utterly reliable and straightforward—he forgives our sins and makes us thoroughly clean from all that is evil. For if we take up the attitude “we have not sinned”, we flatly deny God’s diagnosis of our condition and cut ourselves off from what he has to say to us.

1 John 1:8-10
Good News Translation
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make a liar out of God, and his word is not in us.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Romans 4
GOD’S WORD Translation
We Have God’s Approval by Faith
4 What can we say that we have discovered about our ancestor Abraham? 2 If Abraham had God’s approval because of something he did, he would have had a reason to brag. But he could not brag to God about it. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and that faith was regarded as the basis of Abraham’s approval by God.”

4 When people work, their pay is not regarded as a gift but something they have earned. 5 However, when people don’t work but believe God, the one who approves ungodly people, their faith is regarded as the basis of God’s approval. 6 David says the same thing about those who are blessed: God approves of people without their earning it. David said,

7 “Blessed are those whose disobedience is forgiven
and whose sins are pardoned.
8 Blessed is the person whom the Lord no longer considers sinful.”

9 Are only the circumcised people blessed, or are uncircumcised people blessed as well? We say, “Abraham’s faith was regarded as the basis of God’s approval.” 10 How was his faith regarded as the basis of God’s approval? Was he circumcised or was he uncircumcised at that time? He had not been circumcised. 11 Abraham’s faith was the basis of his approval by God while he was still uncircumcised. The mark of circumcision is the seal of that approval. Therefore, he is the father of every believer who is not circumcised, and their faith, too, is regarded as the basis of their approval by God. 12 He is also the father of those who not only are circumcised but also are following in the footsteps of his faith. Our father Abraham had that faith before he was circumcised.

13 So it was not by obeying the laws in Moses’ Teachings that Abraham or his descendants received the promise that he would inherit the world. Rather, he received this promise through God’s approval that comes by faith. 14 If those who obey Moses’ Teachings are the heirs, then faith is useless and the promise is worthless. 15 The laws in Moses’ Teachings bring about anger. But where those laws don’t exist, they can’t be broken. 16 Therefore, the promise is based on faith so that it can be a gift.[a] Consequently, the promise is guaranteed for every descendant, not only for those who are descendants by obeying Moses’ Teachings but also for those who are descendants by believing as Abraham did. He is the father of all of us, 17 as Scripture says: “I have made you a father of many nations.”

Abraham believed when he stood in the presence of the God who gives life to dead people and calls into existence things that don’t even exist. 18 When there was nothing left to hope for, Abraham still hoped and believed. As a result, he became a father of many nations, as he had been told: “That is how many descendants you will have.” 19 Abraham didn’t weaken. Through faith he regarded the facts: His body was already as good as dead now that he was about a hundred years old, and Sarah was unable to have children. 20 He didn’t doubt God’s promise out of a lack of faith. Instead, giving honor to God for the promise, he became strong because of faith 21 and was absolutely confident that God would do what he promised. 22 That is why Abraham’s faith was regarded as the basis of his approval by God.

23 But the words “his faith was regarded as the basis of his approval by God” were written not only for him 24 but also for us. Our faith will be regarded as the basis of our approval by God—each of us who believe in the one who brought Jesus, our Lord, back to life. 25 Jesus, our Lord, was handed over to death because of our failures and was brought back to life so that we could receive God’s approval.
 
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Almost everyone has sinned, but everyone needs to stop sinning:

(New Testament | Romans 6:2 - 6)

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

And everyone who claims he doesn't ever sin is sinning.

The contraction doesn't is not past tense.

Are you always without sin?
 
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He is the way

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And everyone who claims he doesn't ever sin is sinning.

The contraction doesn't is not past tense.

Are you always without sin?
A truck driver was asked if he could drive a mile without causing an accident. He responded that he could. Then he was told that if he treated every mile he drove with the same care he would not cause any accidents. It is much the same way with sin. Can a person go an hour without willfully sinning? If that person treats every hour with the same care they can stop sinning willfully.
 
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