Pre-Trib Only My New End Times Chronology

Paul absolutely teaches Pre-trib removal of the Church before the Tribulation.
The Church absolutely does not go through the Tribulation.
Why? Because it isn't for us . It is for a rejecting world and for God to focus on Israel.
Not the Bride/Church of Christ.
As far as witnessing goes you have the two powerful witnesses, the 144,000 virgin male Jews 12,000 from each tribe sealed by God so they cannot be harmed , and the angel that goes forth with the gospel as well.
And it isn't a matter of assuming as you are doing , but rather 100% Scriptural.
Nor is about playing harps as you so stated in a snarky manner.
If you study a little harder you would know this.
And even if it were true or not , it doesn't matter if more people don't believe in the pre-trib Rapture.
All that tells me is the majority of the people misunderstand what the Scriptures teach about the obvious pre-trib Rapture.
This a pre-trib thread by way.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 13 happened after the Second Coming.

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Well, the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ has not... happened yet to this day!

ItIsFinished! said:

You seem rather hostile. And it would be wise for you not to falsely accuse one of the brethren.
Regardless if you strategically place a question mark at the end.
Anyone who studies the Scriptures knows Paul taught a Pre-trib removal of the Church before the Tribulation. This Bible 101 friend.
No Scriptural gymnastics here friend, unlike your theory.
The truth is clear and cut.
Oh, the Anti-Christ isn't revealed until after the pre-trib Rapture. Once again Bible 101.
You are intertwining the Rapture and The Second Coming of Christ. Two seperate and distinct events.
Not intertwined.

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I am hostile, to the false doctrine of a pre-tribulational rapture which is not Biblical. That false doctrine is going to cause many brethren to fall right into Satan's den when he comes as The Antichrist to Jerusalem to be setup as king of the world for the tribulation. They will 'fly away' to him, thinking he will be our Lord Jesus.

Those devils who keep pushing the pre-trib rapture lie don't know anymore what God's Word actually states than a man in the moon, simply because they don't follow God's Word about the events leading up to Christ's return, but instead follow a doctrine first taught in a Church in 1830's Great Britain (Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby).

And the early Church fathers NEVER... taught a pre-trib rapture. That is a Revisionist lie that some pre-tribulationalists have started. The 1st time the doctrine was taught in a Christian Church was 1830's Great Britain. The pre-trib scholars have ever since been trying to establish a fake authenticity prior to that. For over 1,800 years, the Christian Church taught Christ's coming to gather His Church after... the tribulation, which is actually what Jesus Himself taught...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That example of the gathering of the saints from end of heaven to the other is about the 'asleep' saints that had already died which Apostle Paul said Jesus will bring with Him per 1 Thessalonians 4. The Mark 13:24-27 example shows about the saints still alive on earth being gathered, which Paul also taught of in 1 Thess.4. Thus it is impossible to say those events already happened, and anyone that does say that is blatantly telling a LIE against God's Word, even blasphemy.

Davy said:

I am hostile, to the false doctrine of a pre-tribulational rapture which is not Biblical. That false doctrine is going to cause many brethren to fall right into Satan's den when he comes as The Antichrist to Jerusalem to be setup as king of the world for the tribulation. They will 'fly away' to him, thinking he will be our Lord Jesus.

Those devils who keep pushing the pre-trib rapture lie don't know anymore what God's Word actually states than a man in the moon, simply because they don't follow God's Word about the events leading up to Christ's return, but instead follow a doctrine first taught in a Church in 1830's Great Britain (Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby).

And the early Church fathers NEVER... taught a pre-trib rapture. That is a Revisionist lie that some pre-tribulationalists have started. The 1st time the doctrine was taught in a Christian Church was 1830's Great Britain. The pre-trib scholars have ever since been trying to establish a fake authenticity prior to that. For over 1,800 years, the Christian Church taught Christ's coming to gather His Church after... the tribulation, which is actually what Jesus Himself taught...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That example of the gathering of the saints from end of heaven to the other is about the 'asleep' saints that had already died which Apostle Paul said Jesus will bring with Him per 1 Thessalonians 4. The Mark 13:24-27 example shows about the saints still alive on earth being gathered, which Paul also taught of in 1 Thess.4. Thus it is impossible to say those events already happened, and anyone that does say that is blatantly telling a LIE against God's Word, even blasphemy.

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The early Church fathers absolutely did teach a pre-trib Rapture.
The pre-trib Rapture is 100% Scriptural.
I would suggest you follow what The Word says about the pre-trib instead of mans commentaries.
And don't confused The Second Coming of Christ with the Rapture . They are two seperate and distinct events.
The Church WILL NOT BE HERE when the AC is revealed. The Church does not go through the Tribulation. This is Bible 101 not some man's commentaries.
Satan hates the Rapture and teaches against it.
Oh by the way , this is a pre-trib thread so maybe find another sandbox to play in and display your ravenous ways.

Davy said:

I am hostile, to the false doctrine of a pre-tribulational rapture which is not Biblical. That false doctrine is going to cause many brethren to fall right into Satan's den when he comes as The Antichrist to Jerusalem to be setup as king of the world for the tribulation. They will 'fly away' to him, thinking he will be our Lord Jesus.

Those devils who keep pushing the pre-trib rapture lie don't know anymore what God's Word actually states than a man in the moon, simply because they don't follow God's Word about the events leading up to Christ's return, but instead follow a doctrine first taught in a Church in 1830's Great Britain (Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby).

And the early Church fathers NEVER... taught a pre-trib rapture. That is a Revisionist lie that some pre-tribulationalists have started. The 1st time the doctrine was taught in a Christian Church was 1830's Great Britain. The pre-trib scholars have ever since been trying to establish a fake authenticity prior to that. For over 1,800 years, the Christian Church taught Christ's coming to gather His Church after... the tribulation, which is actually what Jesus Himself taught...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That example of the gathering of the saints from end of heaven to the other is about the 'asleep' saints that had already died which Apostle Paul said Jesus will bring with Him per 1 Thessalonians 4. The Mark 13:24-27 example shows about the saints still alive on earth being gathered, which Paul also taught of in 1 Thess.4. Thus it is impossible to say those events already happened, and anyone that does say that is blatantly telling a LIE against God's Word, even blasphemy.

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The 6th seal comes after the tribulation of those days. Read Revelation 6. Then explain that the Lamb coming to earth is not the Second Coming.

ItIsFinished! said:

The early Church fathers absolutely did teach a pre-trib Rapture.

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No, they certainly did not teach that doctrine. They taught Jesus' coming is at the end of the tribulation, and they continually warned about the coming Antichrist. Pre-tribulationalists don't warn about the Antichrist for they are told the Church will be gone before the Antichrist arrives, going directly against what Apostle Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8.

The pre-trib Rapture is 100% Scriptural.

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That's just an affirmation, which is the idea of declaring a statement as true without actually providing any proof.

I would suggest you follow what The Word says about the pre-trib instead of mans commentaries.

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I know what The Word of God says, and it does NOT teach anything about Jesus coming to rapture His Church prior to the great tribulation. Jesus specifically said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that His coming and gathering of His Church will be after the tribulation. It's a direct statement, not a metaphor that men's doctrines can play with. Men's doctrines which is added 'leaven' is what you are listening to.

And don't confused The Second Coming of Christ with the Rapture . They are two seperate and distinct events.

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There is no confusion about that in God's Word. It's clear that Jesus only returns ONE time, not several. The pre-trib doctors are lying to you. Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and that is about the "day of the Lord" that both Apostles Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night". That is... the final day of this present world. The OT prophet Zechariah also showed there are only 2 advents by Christ (see Zech.9:9-10).

The Church WILL NOT BE HERE when the AC is revealed. The Church does not go through the Tribulation. This is Bible 101 not some man's commentaries.

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Christ's Church WILL... be here through the "great tribulation", which is why Jesus gave us seven main Signs of the end in His Olivet discourse. Oh, but the Pre-trib doctors tell you Christ's Olivet discourse isn't for the Church, I forget you are taught to not study those Signs. Stay ignorant if you want, but Jesus gave them to His Church. And THIS is what is Bible 101.

Satan hates the Rapture and teaches against it.

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You're wrong there, because what is it the Pre-trib doctors teach you about being the 1st one 'taken'??? That idea is a major doctrine of pre-trib, but it is a false teaching. At the end of Luke 17, after Jesus mentioned there will be two women grinding at the mill, one taken and the other left, two men in one bed, one taken and the other left, His disciples then asked Him, "Where, Lord?". Here is what He told them...

Luke 17:35-37
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Here is the Matthew 24 version of His answer:

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

That means... those in Christ DO NOT WANT TO BE THE FIRST ONE TAKEN! Thus Satan is going to USE the pre-trib rapture to TAKE you into his camp!

There will... be a gathering of the Church by Christ though, what you call a rapture, but it will be on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord" as a thief in the night. You won't be in that gathering though, not as long as you listen to the pre-trib rapture charlatans who steal your money.

Oh by the way , this is a pre-trib thread so maybe find another sandbox to play in and display your ravenous ways.

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Sorry, I though this was a PUBLIC form. If this is a PRIVATE thread, then it should require some sort of screening to sign up for it. But alas, there is not such thing, so your complaint there isn't valid.

Timtofly said:

The 6th seal comes after the tribulation of those days. Read Revelation 6. Then explain that the Lamb coming to earth is not the Second Coming.

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I have... studied the Seals of Rev.6. They parallel the Signs in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

The 6th Seal has 2 parts. The first part is about the stars falling to the earth as untimely figs. That is about the Revelation 12:7-9 event when Satan and his angels are booted out of the heavenly down to the earth for the tribulation. Satan will be the coming Antichrist, on earth, in plain sight, with the image of man.

The 2nd part of the 6th Seal is the day of Jesus' 2nd coming when God's cup of wrath upon the wicked is poured out. It is the same event of Jesus' coming on a white horse in Rev.19. It is the same event of the 7th trumpet when all nations become those of The Father and The Son. It is the same event of the 7th Vial when it is poured out into the air.

It is a mistake to think that the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials happen in sequential sets. Jesus gave only 7 main Signs of the end, and that's what the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are. Satan comes on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, 6th Vial (666).

You should seriously go to another thread and let your rage fly there.
Your hostile nature is very unbecoming of one who claims to be a Christian.
And yes the early Church fathers taught a pre-trib Rapture.
And yes Paul CLEARLY taught a pre-trib Rapture.

Davy said:

I have... studied the Seals of Rev.6. They parallel the Signs in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

The 6th Seal has 2 parts. The first part is about the stars falling to the earth as untimely figs. That is about the Revelation 12:7-9 event when Satan and his angels are booted out of the heavenly down to the earth for the tribulation. Satan will be the coming Antichrist, on earth, in plain sight, with the image of man.

The 2nd part of the 6th Seal is the day of Jesus' 2nd coming when God's cup of wrath upon the wicked is poured out. It is the same event of Jesus' coming on a white horse in Rev.19. It is the same event of the 7th trumpet when all nations become those of The Father and The Son. It is the same event of the 7th Vial when it is poured out into the air.

It is a mistake to think that the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials happen in sequential sets. Jesus gave only 7 main Signs of the end, and that's what the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are. Satan comes on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, 6th Vial (666).

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Well Satan is not the antichrist. Satan is the second beast out of the land, who is allowed to create his own messiah, called the antichrist. The vials all 7 are poured out on Satan's earth. I am not sure why there are 4 different types of judgments, if you all think they are just one continuous stream in whatever order any human wishes to map out. Who is to say your order is better than any other human's, or the actual human who wrote it in the order he actually witnessed?

Timtofly said:

Well Satan is not the antichrist. Satan is the second beast out of the land, who is allowed to create his own messiah, called the antichrist. The vials all 7 are poured out on Satan's earth. I am not sure why there are 4 different types of judgments, if you all think they are just one continuous stream in whatever order any human wishes to map out. Who is to say your order is better than any other human's, or the actual human who wrote it in the order he actually witnessed?

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Well Satan will... be the Antichrist, you just don't know it yet, and probably won't know it until our Lord Jesus Christ comes to destroy his working of the strong delusion over all the earth at the end. Revelation 13:4-8 says the whole world will worship the "dragon", except those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Just who do you think that "dragon" is per God's Word?

Revelation 17:8 says those "...that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Davy said:

Well Satan will... be the Antichrist, you just don't know it yet, and probably won't know it until our Lord Jesus Christ comes to destroy his working of the strong delusion over all the earth at the end. Revelation 13:4-8 says the whole world will worship the "dragon", except those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Just who do you think that "dragon" is per God's Word?

Revelation 17:8 says those "...that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

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Well the beast that gets the most worship will be Satan. Do you think he would have it any other way?

Timtofly said:

Well the beast that gets the most worship will be Satan. Do you think he would have it any other way?

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The point is, literal worship of Satan on this earth, in person. That is who the Antichrist will be for the end. This is why it will be a time on earth like never before in this world, and why our Lord Jesus called it a "great tribulation".

The reason Rev.13:4-8 shows the whole world will worship Satan in place of God will be because of the great signs and miracles he will work. He is not coming with horns on his head, a goatee, and wielding a pitchfork. He is coming to play God, the role he has always wanted (per Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14). And he is coming here to earth in OUR dimension with his angels (per Rev.12:7-9).

There are 2 different beasts mentioned in Rev.13. The 2nd one is about Satan as the coming Antichrist. We are told there he will appear with two horns 'like' a lamb, which is pointing to an imitation of Jesus, but he will speak as a dragon, that "dragon" title being another one of Satan's many titles.

The majority of the world does not understand why God brought this 2nd world earth age. They do not understand what Satan did in wanting to be God in that old world when he first rebelled, drawing a third of the angels to earth with him. Most today do not understand the heavenly dimension and how the angelic can walk and live upon this earth. Thus one of the hurdles Satan's children put in the way in many pulpits is with forcing upon congregations the idea of flesh man as a required identity of the coming Antichrist. They don't remember that the image of man originates from God's Own Image per Genesis 1:26-27. Nor even do they realize that Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'.

Timtofly said:

The 6th seal comes after the tribulation of those days. Read Revelation 6. Then explain that the Lamb coming to earth is not the Second Coming.

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The prophesies about the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, make it clear that the Lord will not be seen on that terrible day. Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, He stays in heaven; sending His fiery wrath upon the earth; Jeremiah 25:30, Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1

ItIsFinished! said:

And yes Paul CLEARLY taught a pre-trib Rapture.

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Clearly means unmistakable and impossible to get wrong.
I know of no such scripture which says clearly; God will take His Church to heaven.
Such as verse isn't in the Bible.
What I do see in the Bible, is scriptures saying that we must stand firm in our faith through all that must happen and endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10, +

What Paul does clearly say; is that many will fall for false teachings and fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Davy said:

The point is, literal worship of Satan on this earth, in person. That is who the Antichrist will be for the end. This is why it will be a time on earth like never before in this world, and why our Lord Jesus called it a "great tribulation".

The reason Rev.13:4-8 shows the whole world will worship Satan in place of God will be because of the great signs and miracles he will work. He is not coming with horns on his head, a goatee, and wielding a pitchfork. He is coming to play God, the role he has always wanted (per Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14). And he is coming here to earth in OUR dimension with his angels (per Rev.12:7-9).

There are 2 different beasts mentioned in Rev.13. The 2nd one is about Satan as the coming Antichrist. We are told there he will appear with two horns 'like' a lamb, which is pointing to an imitation of Jesus, but he will speak as a dragon, that "dragon" title being another one of Satan's many titles.

The majority of the world does not understand why God brought this 2nd world earth age. They do not understand what Satan did in wanting to be God in that old world when he first rebelled, drawing a third of the angels to earth with him. Most today do not understand the heavenly dimension and how the angelic can walk and live upon this earth. Thus one of the hurdles Satan's children put in the way in many pulpits is with forcing upon congregations the idea of flesh man as a required identity of the coming Antichrist. They don't remember that the image of man originates from God's Own Image per Genesis 1:26-27. Nor even do they realize that Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'.

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The reason why Satan appears with 2 horns is because that has been his physical appearance for 2500 years, working with the Greeks, then the Romans, and hanging out at the Vatican. Well his cover is being blown and his deception will be totally revealed in the 6th seal. The church has nothing to worry about. It is all the false prophets leading people astray from their pulpits who will be in trouble.

keras said:

The prophesies about the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, make it clear that the Lord will not be seen on that terrible day. Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, He stays in heaven; sending His fiery wrath upon the earth; Jeremiah 25:30, Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1

Clearly means unmistakable and impossible to get wrong.
I know of no such scripture which says clearly; God will take His Church to heaven.
Such as verse isn't in the Bible.
What I do see in the Bible, is scriptures saying that we must stand firm in our faith through all that must happen and endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10, +

What Paul does clearly say; is that many will fall for false teachings and fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

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If God and the Lamb are not seen, why is everyone, as in everyone, afraid? If they are not seen, why does the sky roll back like a can of tuna being opened? All this tuna below will see enough to make them want to hide under the closest rock.

keras said:

The prophesies about the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, make it clear that the Lord will not be seen on that terrible day. Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, He stays in heaven; sending His fiery wrath upon the earth; Jeremiah 25:30, Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1

Clearly means unmistakable and impossible to get wrong.
I know of no such scripture which says clearly; God will take His Church to heaven.
Such as verse isn't in the Bible.
What I do see in the Bible, is scriptures saying that we must stand firm in our faith through all that must happen and endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10, +

What Paul does clearly say; is that many will fall for false teachings and fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

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Your definition of clearly is inaccurate.
Also I didn't say clearly as part of written Scripture.
But you already knew that.
I did however say that Paul CLEARLY taught a pre-trib Rapture, and he did.
And , Matthew 24:13 and Rev. 13:10 are dealing with the Tribulation Saints , not the Church.
God will not suffer His Church to wrath.
The Church is anyone in Christ from Pentacost till present.
As far as your last CLEARLY written sentence, well looks like that one is applicable to you friend.

The problem that anti-pretribbers have is they do not understand The Second Coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
The Church WILL NOT go through the Tribulation.
It isn't for us.

ItIsFinished! said:

The problem that anti-pretribbers have is they do not understand The Second Coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
The Church WILL NOT go through the Tribulation.
It isn't for us.

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Explain Revelation 12:17. And Daniel 11:35.
They say God's holy people will be tested and refined.

Your idea of 'Tribulation Saints', is false; there will be no, or very few converts during the GT. Revelation 13:3-4 & 17

keras said:

Explain Revelation 12:17. And Daniel 11:35.
They say God's holy people will be tested and refined.

Your idea of 'Tribulation Saints', is false; there will be no, or very few converts during the GT. Revelation 13:3-4 & 17

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The point is all will die. Rapture is for living people, not dead people. While people will spiritually endure, they will be physically dying.

Timtofly said:

The reason why Satan appears with 2 horns is because that has been his physical appearance for 2500 years, working with the Greeks, then the Romans, and hanging out at the Vatican.

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Sounds like a copy-cat from writings of commentators who follow the Reformers in thinking the Antichrist is a pope. That couldn't be farther from the truth, and I'm a Protestant.

In Revelation 12:7-9 we are shown about a war in heaven, with Satan and his angels being booted out of heaven, no more place found for him there. And there we are told the title of "dragon" is another name for Satan. Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 warned us about a pseudo-Christ coming to work great signs and wonders on earth that IF it were possible, would deceive even His very elect. Apostle Paul warned us about the man of sin coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped, and also that he will work lying wonders to deceive. Apostle John in Revelation 13:11-14 tells us about "another beast" that will have power to work great wonders making fire come down from heaven to the earth in the sight of men, and deceives those on earth by the miracles he had power to work.

All that reveals the endtime Antichrist is not a pope, because no pope will be able to work those great signs and miracles. ONLY a supernatural entity will have that kind of power on earth to deceive. The idea Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24:23-26 is about a singular Antichrist coming to Jerusalem to play Messiah. The Greek for KJV "false Christs" there is the word pseudochristos, made up from two Greek words, pseudo which means false, and christos which is singular for Christ.

Thus we can heed men's doctrines about a pope and be deceived, or we can heed God's Word and be aware of what's really getting ready to take place in our near future.