Is God doubt-tolerant?

Beanieboy said:

Thomas had one of the strongest faiths of the disciples because he questioned, he doubted. I find that most people who don't doubt don't think that much about spiritual matters. If something is true, one should be able to question without the truth changing.

I would rather doubt a little than just believe anything I'm told from my church. After a while, your doubts are answered.

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True as if a person never doubted then they wouldn't constantly be wanting to make their faith stronger.

Here's a beautiful song that I really love.

Hmmm! said:

Wow, powerful story. By "died" do you mean that you died to your old self and had a born-again experience? And your scream of horror because of a realisation that it was you who had been keeping yourself from God all along by doubting - what was it you were doubting, His existence or that He loves you or something else?

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Yes i died being a doubter. i had agonised God's existence for years and did not find Him in my suffering life therefore. When i perished in my doubt faith in His love could begin to grow without being torn down all the time by my unbelief.

Simply analyse doubting God. When we doubt God He isn't there for us, only in faith can we be touched by Him. To doubt sinful people is fine but to doubt God is lethal to our faith.

i wrote a poem about my struggle with doubting God i would like to share.

Peace.


Unbelief.

Your voice turned me utterly insane,
believing your suggestions
thinking there is no God.
For you betrayed my Good Life,
pushing me into that bottomless pit,
into fiery Hell for years on end.

Flying right through my reality,
your miserable voice dividing
myself against myself,
your taunts attacking faithful self,
hopelessness cutting me up,
your lies barring access to true Life!

No faith feeding my starving soul,
instead doubt, confusion and terror,
false evidence locking my hopes away,
devoid from true self or any good thing,
torturing me in those dark dungeons,
you only ever set out to murder me!

Beanieboy said:

Thomas had one of the strongest faiths of the disciples because he questioned, he doubted.

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According to who? Certainly not according to scripture.

As we think about doubting Thomas’ lack of faith, we must consider the rest of the story. Church history tells us that some years later, Thomas remained a faithful follower of Jesus. He was taken into captivity for preaching the gospel of Christ and asked to recant. When he refused to recant, tradition and history tells us that they drove pine spikes through his body trying to get him to deny Jesus, but he refused. They took glowing red plates and placed them on his body, and even under the singeing of human flesh, he refused to recant. Because Thomas was resolved that Jesus is Lord and that the proof rests in His resurrection from the dead, he refused to recant. Therefore, they took him and burned him because he refused to deny Jesus.

While we often criticize Thomas as the doubter, we must consider how he finished life. He was tortured for his faith, and refused to recant. Why? Because Jesus had appeared to him in the flesh and Thomas understood this one truth – Jesus is LORD God.

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Doubting Thomas and His Strong Faith

As the articles, we have to consider the whole story, and what happened to each of the disciples is part of Church history. Granted, he doubted and wanted proof, and Christ gave it to him at the resurrection, believed, and had a very strong faith afterwards, so I think it unfair to refer to him as "doubting Thomas."

In my walk, I have learned that God will tolerate you having doubts and telling him so, and he offers proof. He tolerates you getting angry at him, being mad at him, questioning if you can trust him, if he is listening, understands...

The only thing that is difficult is apathy, because at that point, communication stops, and you no longer engage.

but there are times when you will doubt because your faith is being tested to make it stronger. It's not that you won't have doubt, but that you will trust despite the doubt.

Hmmm! said:

we can't really know anything about God other than what He chooses to reveal to us?

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But that is knowing a lot about Him already i reckon.

i think with faith it has to do with how much it pays. If you ask your god for a fish but The Truth instead hands you a snake then doubt will soon begin to set in about your god. God has made it to be so on purpose so that faith in idols can be undermined for all to see. While faith in the Truth of God is always true. God does as He says. Always true to be. To believe otherwise will only harvest bad life in the end.

Peace.

Hmmm! said:

I don't think "doubt-tolerant" is an actual word but it's a word writer Philip Yancey used in an interview I've just read that he gave on the subject of faith and doubt.

In the interview he said that he often challenges students to find a single argument against God in the older agnostics (Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations and how he has respect for a God who not only gives us the freedom to reject him, but also includes the arguments we can use in the Bible.

My first experience of church was that asking questions was tantamount to a sin and I was basically told just to believe. I left in a state of some disgrace and this put me off church for some years until I decided to try a different church where I had a better experience.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand. The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith. So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Edited to note that Christopher Hitchens died in 2011

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Everything in the universe in one form or another operates on the underlying principle or dichotomy of polar opposites, it's the narrative of the soul; the process found in reasoning with God.

zippy2006 said:

According to who? Certainly not according to scripture.

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Yeah! Great example.

How about Abraham? Is he not probably our prime example How may of us would bound our kid on an altar and get ready to slit his throat when God told us to do it? Here's the proper list. And also, the word of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul?.. Fiction? That's what the devil wants you to believe.

God is doubt tolerant. But He would rather we did not doubt, but obey. Mostly it's obey for our own good, like children-because we know better and what is right.

Very few are tested like the hero's of the faith. But the Bible says one day, the whole world will be tested with life or death (Rev 13), and it could be closer think we think. How will we stand if we doubt God now? We all need to grow up for what is coming.


◄ Hebrews 11 ►
New American Standard Bible Par ▾
The Triumphs of Faith

1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the men of old gained approval.
3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Hmmm! said:

Is it as a question of growing up? It isn't that doubt is a comforting childish thing that we're holding onto. Quite the opposite in fact. It takes honesty and courage to examine your faith and acknowledge that you don't understand everything.

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There is a difference in between doubting and saying I don't understand. It takes more courage to say i don't know how God will do this, trust God, and obey no mater what. It takes honesty & humility to say I don't understand. It takes faith to say I will obey even when I don't understand.

Doubt in Gods word was contained in the test in the garden. It will be contained in the world wide test when the beast is revealed. If you doubt then, your fate will be sealed. No second chances.

And just think if people of the beast say bow down and worship the beast and his image or I will torture & kill your children. Will you have the faith to not worship the beast? I mean if you don't know, and don't think it won't be a big deal, your doubt will have serious consequence.

So doubting is a matter of not growing in the faith, and not doing what God says. They are two sides to the same coin. Doubting is the first step to unbelief, the first trap Satan lays for us.

Hebrews is all about faith contrasted with unbelief.


18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.


11Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Hmmm! said:

I don't think "doubt-tolerant" is an actual word but it's a word writer Philip Yancey used in an interview I've just read that he gave on the subject of faith and doubt.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand.

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There is no strength in doubt. They do not go hand in hand. Jesus said that when you intend to believe then do not doubt in your heart.

The only good time to use doubt is when satan lies to you. Then say "I doubt it." If only Adam or/both Eve had said that to satan when he lied to them.

But of course you won't know that satan lies if you don't know the truth. Doubt is many times all that satan needs to get someone to make a mistake or sin. Whichever would be worse in any given situation.

The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again.

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Faith in God and His word is a certainty. The apostle Peter compared his actual experience of the transfigured Christ versus the Word of God. He said that "We have a more sure Word."

Why? Because what is written in the Bible never changes. While one's thoughts can be here one minute and change to something else the next minute. One's memories of spectacular things can fade or become uncertain in it's events.

(or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith.

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To say that there would be anytime that we would not need faith is to say that in such times we would not need God's Word. But that is absurd. That's like saying that we would not need God.

And that would be atheistic.

For the Christian, faith is always exercised even in certainties. It's faith that causes certainty to spring forth. Certainties only come through God's Word for God by His Word created all natural things, plants, animals, rock, dirt, humans, insects, all things.

It's through these things that there is no excuse as to whether there is a God.

So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

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You are sense-minded to welcome doubt as a friend and helper to you. But all the while doubt is a faith-killer. But if and when you feed your faith you starve your doubts to death. You should arrange for a grave for that so called friend of yours before it puts you in one.

Is it true that you'd rather accept doubt as something healthy just because you want to avoid feeling guilty?

When all the while what you call guilt is your own Christian sense of conviction that tells you when you've gone down the wrong road and need to turn around and get back on the right road. Before you get completely lost.

Being on the doubt road is still going the wrong way.

Anyone can seek Him through God's Word, the Bible, when their eyes are opened and their hearts sensitive to discern the greater things in the Spirit realm. (Acts 26:18) That scripture says that the devil controls them but another verse (2 Cor.4:4) says that they often aren't aware that they're being controlled or manipulated, or influenced or enticed.

Doubt occurs when a person relies more on what they academically know and their physical senses. There's no surety in either of those because they both are limited to this world while God and His Word reveal the expanded and Most High reality. The Bible says "He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him." (Heb.11:6)

God's only healthy way to stop that conviction is to repent for wrongs done. That includes the wrong of making doubt your bosom buddy.

Accept Jesus as your very successful lawyer who will get you out of the trouble that you've gotten yourself in by canceling your mistakes. As if you never did them. (1 Jhn.2:1, 1:9)

Put an immediate evict order against that invader (doubt) and get lawyered up quickly.

How's that for avoiding guilt?

Rose2020 said:

I've said this before but I think that doubt and unbelief are two entirely different things. As a Christian I really want to believe, but sometimes I question my faith. However, an unbeliever usually rejects Christ and doesn't want to have anything to do with Him and a Christian can never do that. Just like a Christian can never commit the unpardonable sin.

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Never mind, I guess that's basically the same thing.

Hmmm! said:

I don't think "doubt-tolerant" is an actual word but it's a word writer Philip Yancey used in an interview I've just read that he gave on the subject of faith and doubt.

In the interview he said that he often challenges students to find a single argument against God in the older agnostics (Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations and how he has respect for a God who not only gives us the freedom to reject him, but also includes the arguments we can use in the Bible.

My first experience of church was that asking questions was tantamount to a sin and I was basically told just to believe. I left in a state of some disgrace and this put me off church for some years until I decided to try a different church where I had a better experience.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand. The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith. So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Edited to note that Christopher Hitchens died in 2011

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Welcome to the Forum Hmmm! Hope you find it a place where you are challenged to grow in your relationship with Jesus! It can deinitely be a place where iron sharpens iron (sparks can fly).

But to your question. There are two kind of doubts! The cynical and the unsure but willing (my words.) They are best exemplified by Mary and Zecharias (John the Baptists dad).

Zecharias' doubt was unbelief which God is not tolerant of!

Mary's after Gabriels announcement was one of simply not knowing!

God always has compassion on the tender heart, but the hardened brittle heart- He will crush it to either soften them or at the end to suffer the consequences of their willing doubt!

Hope this helps.

Hmmm! said:

Wasn't that a lack of obedience rather than doubt? Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden of Eden so I'm sure could have asked for clarification if required.



tbh, in those circumstances I would probably pretend to worship the Beast if that would save my children's lives. If that means I go to hell by the real God, ah well.



How can you grow if you already know everything? We all have some doubts, at least at times, and if our attitude is "Don't doubt, just believe" then we're never going to resolve them.

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I think you proved my point. You need to get on the faith train instead of the doubt train. We all need to. Faith has to be put in action. Faith without action is a dead faith. We have to put our money where are mouth is, so to say. We have to believe without doubting that God will do what He says He will. We have to trust that He is good and we are not, and He knows best without question.

We got to "work out" your faith like you would work out at a gym. The protein powder and weights is the word of God that will enable you to become like Arnold! No protein powder, no working out with weights, you'll stay a 96lb. weakling, and eventually you will quit the gym because you are seeing no results-and then blame God. Why? Because we did it our way, not Gods.

fwGod has some great stuff up there! ^


And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.


5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.


21Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. 22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.



1“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

13“But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19“For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Hmmm! said:

...I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength?...

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I think it can be weakness, but it is understandable. However, I don’t think it is necessary bad, because:

Instead, test everything. Hold on to what is good, but keep away from every kind of evil.
First Epistle to the Thessalonians 5:21