Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

BABerean2 · Aug 3, 2020

Choose Wisely said:
Once a person comes to understand that God keeps his promises and the nation of Israel has been re-established as was prophesied in Hosea 6:1-3 and Ezekiel 37......among many places, the fallacy of Replacement Theology falls apart. Additionally when one comes to understand that there are two raptures, one for the Church and one for the 12 tribes as can be seen in Luke 21: 22-29.....among other places......all the arguments against Dispensationalism and a Pretribulation Rapture are like dust in the wind.

In the video below Jacob Rothschild reveals how his family created the modern State of Israel. Rothschild did not give any of the credit to God.

Who are the people found in Revelation 2:9, and Revelation 3:9, based on what Paul said below.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

.

JulieB67 · Aug 3, 2020

Here what other translations have. It looks as if two could agree with you, the rest, not so much. Certainly there can be errors in translation...........however.......the vast majority seem to agree with the plural. I'm pretty sure that those that are learned and skilled in translation of the Greek are more qualified than you and I. I'll go with the experts.

It doesn't matter if it's "times and seasons", it's still talking about one day, it doesn't prove multiple comings. Quite the opposite,

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

If Paul was talking about multiple comings, he would have laid them out. He's telling you right there in 5:2 the event he just described in 4:17. That's context and simple reading comprehension. (no offense) These are based on letters that Paul wrote.

And because this very letter confused them. He wrote a second letter to not be confused or shaken in mind that the day was at hand (imminent). It's not. He says that day shall not happen....

Christ comes back at the Lord's Day. The prophets declared it and the NT declares it.

Choose Wisely · Aug 3, 2020

JulieB67 said:
It's actually Luke 21:36

Well, at least you're not one of them that says Christ's teaching's here was for a select group and not the rest.

Actually, it's for three groups........the Church.....the 12 tribes across the earth...........and the Nation of Israel.

JulieB67 said:
Having said that though, Christ was not teaching about a pretrib rapture in any of the gospels.

Then why did He tell exactly when He is coming and then toss out this nugget?
Matt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

JulieB67 said:
Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all teach about Christ's return and what must happen before that. In Luke 21, he say's

Luke 21:8 "And He said, "Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My name saying, `I am Christ;' and the time draweth near": go ye not therefore after them."

If a pretrib were to happen, Christ and later Paul would not have given warnings about not being deceived. That's what the tribulation is all about. The deception of Antichrist/Satan.

Well, the Church will be gone before the tribulation happens...........hence pretrib. However, the twelve tribes across the earth and the nation of Israel will be here and the instruction is for them.

JulieB67 said:
If a pretrib rapture were true, salvation would be the more important the issue, not deception and warnings about not being deceived. Quite a bit of Christ's teachings have to do with this issue, the 10 virgins, etc.

The warnings are for those that are here after the Church is gone. He starts us off with:
Matt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
The warning matches up perfectly with the rider on the white horse in Rev 6. This is the 7th king, AN Antichrist.
The we get an additional warning.
Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
Then the eighth king, THE Antichrist, will come.

JulieB67 said:
This is also why Paul says we must move past "salvation" issues and get into the meat of God's word. End times being part of that.

Christ goes on and lays out the signs as he does in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. He says later on in the chapter

Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

This snare is the tribulation of Antichrist and what we need to escape from. How do we do it? With the entire armour as Paul taught. That's why the entire bible needs to be taken as a whole.

Absolutely incorrect. The snare is the wrath of God. The tribulation, the 70th week of Daniel is over before the wrath of God begins.

JulieB67 said:
How will we be accounted worthy to escape to stand before the Son of God?

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Ephesians 6:14 "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;"

Ephesians 6:16 "Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Ephesians 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

Ephesians 6:18 "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints,"

You seem to be attempting to equate the standing before the Son of God in heaven with the standing on earth when attacked. Please.........these are two completely separate things. Need I say more?

JulieB67 said:
We are talking all saints, there is no label of "church"

The church will be gone shortly after, when we see ALL THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS. The 12 tribes will have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes to pass.

JulieB67 said:
And just what do you think the "evil day" is that Paul is so earnestly teaching about?

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night." So we see here this is the very subject of 1st 4:17

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Matthew 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Just a bunch of verse with no context.

JulieB67 said:
Many Christians today believe he will be here before the tribulation.

Luke 21:27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

He's talking literally during the tribulation.

The verses in Matthew 24 line up with the 6 seals. The Church will be gone shortly after we see these things begin to come to pass. The will be before the tribulation, which is the 1st 6 seals. We are told we can escape ALL THESE THINGS.............The false Christ starting with the rider on the white horse, the wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famine and pestilence. Those things are the tribulation period, the 70th week of Daniel. Then Christ comes and there will be a rapture, the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. The nation of Israel will remain on earth during the wrath of God in the place that was prepared.

Choose Wisely · Aug 3, 2020

JulieB67 said:
If Paul was talking about multiple comings, he would have laid them out. He's telling you right there in 5:2 the event he just described in 4:17. .

He did lay them out.
One coming the Lord himself will come at the trump of God.
Another coming He will send His angels to gather the elect at the last trump.

BABerean2 · Aug 3, 2020

Choose Wisely said:
Well, the Church will be gone before the tribulation happens...........hence pretrib. However, the twelve tribes across the earth and the nation of Israel will be here and the instruction is for them.

Either you are confused, or James was confused when he addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in the passage below.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Who was James talking to above?

I have never heard a Bible scholar who said the Book of James was not addressed to the Church.

Your attempts to separate faithful Israel from the Church fall apart here.
.

JulieB67 · Aug 3, 2020

Choose Wisely said:
Then why did He tell exactly when He is coming and then toss out this nugget?
Matt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Because of these verses,

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I don't know about you but if I'm feeling peace and safety and then sudden destruction comes I'm going to be pretty shocked.

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People.

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

This is the snare that comes upon the whole world. And most of the world (including those in the falling away that Paul teaches) will worship him. They will be thinking peace and safety because that's what he brings and then bam, destruction and God's wrath.

But to answer your question, what hour will people be not expecting him? When people think he is already here. That's the deception and it's God that sends the strong delusion.

Choose Wisely said:
Absolutely incorrect. The snare is the wrath of God. The tribulation, the 70th week of Daniel is over before the wrath of God begins.

No, do you know what a snare is, it's a trap. The Greek says trap and when used fig, it means a trick or strategem (temptation) That's Satan's mo, not God's. That's what the entire tribulation is about. You actually think God's wrath is about tricks and strategies? When this Greek word (pagis) for snare is used in a couple of other places in the NT, it's talking about the devil. God doesn't need to snare anyone. His wrath will be straight to the point.

Choose Wisely said:
Just a bunch of verse with no context.

Ok.... Even though they were all pertaining to praying and watching so that the day would not overtake anyone as a thief.

I'll leave just one question again then. What "evil day" is Paul talking about that we need to "stand for"?

Choose Wisely said:
The verses in Matthew 24 line up with the 6 seals.

This I do agree with. And I already posted in another post to someone that the first rider was antichrist. But where is the rapture taught in Matthew 24?

Choose Wisely said:
One coming the Lord himself will come at the trump of God.
Another coming He will send His angels to gather the elect at the last trump.

See, this is what I don't understand. Do people really not believe that the tump of God would be the 7th and last trump?? All throughout the bible, we see the number 7 has the most significance. And if you pair Christ's teachings with all of these verses, plus the ones in 1st Corinthians and Revelation they all fit together. There is no secret, there is noise, shout, etc.

So you're "trump of God coming". This means a rapture for you?

So you really don't believe what Paul says in 5:1 and 2? and that he is talking about 1st Thes 4:16-18. You don't read those verses that way even though the manuscripts had no chapters. When you're studying the bible, you just stop before certain books are done?

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Air in this vese does not mean sky, it means to breath. In that instant we will be in our breath of life, spiritual bodies at the point.
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

And again, John is telling the churches in chapter 1, every eye will see him.

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

Timtofly · Aug 3, 2020

Choose Wisely said:
Ok great....... The 144,000 is an ascension. They are before the throne and are the 1st fruits of a harvest. AFTER that, there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. This harvest will occur at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God.
I know it's not the Church.......the Church is in heaven in Revelation 5. They are in heaven before the seals are opened.......pretribulation rapture. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured pre wrath.

The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened...........Pretribulation rapture. See Revelation 5. The 1st 6 seal are the 70th week of Daniel. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured at the pre wrath rapture. The Nation of Israel remains on earth. Those that flee are in protection as they have a place prepared for them.

Can you explain what is happening in these verses?
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Nope. The 144k are disciples. They are doing the harvesting, like the original 12 and the 70 in the first 3.5 year ministry of Jesus. It is the separation of the sheep and goats, wheat and tares. The two sickles is the litiral harvest. This harvest is not the gathering of living flesh. It is killing the human body. At the end the souls will be resurrected to Death and damnation, or resurrected to reign with Christ for the next 1000 years. Except for those raptured of the church, and the 144K doing the harvesting, all 7.7+ billion current humans will literally die in the next 6+ years. That is the interpretation of Revelation 14.

Timtofly · Aug 3, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

Jeremiah 31:31-34, was fulfilled in Christ, the covenant promised to Abraham, Hebrews 11:8-12. Hebrews 8 applies to physical Israel, because the church is not spiritual Israel. The church is the new covenant, this is true. In Christ the church is complete. However physical Israel is under the same covenant, but only physically. Hebrews 10:14-18, proves the difference between the spiritual and physical covenant in repeating the OT promise given in chapter 8. Physical Israel is a subset of the spiritual church. 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 also confirms the spiritual component of the covenant includes a small physical group, and the proof is Revelation 7:1-8. Hebrews 12:22-24, Revelation 6 is proof the rapture happens before Israel receives the physical portion of the covenant. The church CANNOT partake in the physical part. The church is ONLY spiritual.

This refutation against being here for physical death is absurd. These verses prove the church will remain in the spiritual and never subjected to the physical again. Even the physical Israel will pass through the valley of the shadow of death, but still come out on the other side as physical. God confirmed the covenant with Abraham by Himself being the Atonement. The Law was just a temporary physical kingdom promise, but did not free Israel from Adam's disobedience. The new physical covenant with physical Israel will remain on earth, free from Adam's punishment. We are at the end of both the spiritual gathering of the church, and Adam's punishment. Peter says, failing to understand this, is being willfully ignorant.

BABerean2 · Aug 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34, was fulfilled in Christ, the covenant promised to Abraham, Hebrews 11:8-12. Hebrews 8 applies to physical Israel, because the church is not spiritual Israel. The church is the new covenant, this is true. In Christ the church is complete. However physical Israel is under the same covenant, but only physically. Hebrews 10:14-18, proves the difference between the spiritual and physical covenant in repeating the OT promise given in chapter 8. Physical Israel is a subset of the spiritual church. 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 also confirms the spiritual component of the covenant includes a small physical group, and the proof is Revelation 7:1-8. Hebrews 12:22-24, Revelation 6 is proof the rapture happens before Israel receives the physical portion of the covenant. The church CANNOT partake in the physical part. The church is ONLY spiritual.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

.

Davy · Aug 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34, was fulfilled in Christ, the covenant promised to Abraham, Hebrews 11:8-12. Hebrews 8 applies to physical Israel, because the church is not spiritual Israel.

Christ's Church IS... GOD's Israel. Apostle Paul was specific in Romans 9 that GOD's Israel is represented by those in Faith on the Promise, that Promise involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

Who do you think you are? You cannot change what Apostle Paul said there! He was emphatic that ONLY those in The Faith (that "promise" there) on Jesus Christ are COUNTED FOR THE SEED OF ISRAEL.

Like Paul also said in Galatians 3:22, the Scripture has concluded ALL under sin so that the PROMISE by Faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe! That is the same PROMISE Paul is talking about there in Romans 9, and you don't even realize it.

Per Galatians 3 also, Paul taught that those of Faith have believed the SAME FAITH as what Abraham believed, and thus have become the children of Abraham. That Faith is about the Gospel Promise of Jesus Christ. So The Gospel was always FIRST, prior to the giving of the law, and prior to the existence of the children of Israel.

The Promise continued through Isaac, and then to Jacob whom God gave the new name of Israel to represent The Gospel. Jacob overcame with God's help, which is the meaning of the name 'Israel'. That name Israel is the Salvation name through Christ Jesus, The Gospel. That is what it actually represents. So if flesh born Israelites want to be part of God's Salvation Plan fulfilled like He put forth through Abraham, Isaac, and then Jacob, then Israelites better get on board as to what God ordained His Israel for! And that is to be ambassadors to the nations in preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Choose Wisely · Aug 3, 2020

keras said:
What is solid is the Words of Jesus:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

Please note that it does not say "No one WILL go up to heaven"
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Suppose someone said in 1950........No one hath broken the four minute mile. That does not mean that no one will break the 4 minute mile...........and it was broken in 1954........so that is not solid.

keras said:
John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

Certainly an unbelieving Jew cannot go where He goes as no one can go to the Father but by Jesus. So this verse will not apply to a believer. Again not too solid.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Of course they can't go where He is going........... verses 8:21 and 8:24 tell you why they can't go where He is. They are in sin and are do not believe that He is the Messiah. Those that accept Jesus as the Messiah can go where he is going. Nothing you are saying is solid.

John 8:21 21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

keras said:
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

Rev 19:19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
You say people will not go to heaven, but the scripture says they will. Your claims are unscriptural.

keras said:
John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians.

Jesus is talking about the disciples. Of course they cannot come out of the world because they must spread the Gospel. Once the Gospel has been spread across the world, then people can come out of the world as we know that and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[QUOTE="keras, post: 75225639, member: 324545"]
Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.
[/QUOTE]
Yep, but I have already shown people in heaven in Rev 19. And there are plenty of other places, so what you are saying does not agree with scripture.
QUOTE="keras, post: 75225639, member: 324545"]
Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11 [/QUOTE]
Here we see 24 elders in heaven.........so........what you claim is incorrect.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Scripture proves that the things that you claim are incorrect. Here we see the great multitude BEFORE THE THRONE.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

I can't figure out why you are wasting your life posting things that can easily proven to be incorrect. What's the purpose? Where did all this come from? Can't you see that I have dis-proven every point you made? I'm sure others have done the same. Why are you doing this?............as it is obvious that you are incorrect. What do you need to see the truth?

Choose Wisely · Aug 3, 2020

keras said:
What is solid is the Words of Jesus:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

Please note that it does not say "No one WILL go up to heaven"
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Suppose someone said in 1950........No one hath broken the four minute mile. That does not mean that no one will break the 4 minute mile...........and it was broken in 1954........so that is not solid.

keras said:
John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

Certainly an unbelieving Jew cannot go where He goes as no one can go to the Father but by Jesus. So this verse will not apply to a believer. Again not too solid.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Of course they can't go where He is going........... verses 8:21 and 8:24 tell you why they can't go where He is. They are in sin and are do not believe that He is the Messiah. Those that accept Jesus as the Messiah can go where he is going. Nothing you are saying is solid.

John 8:21 21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

keras said:
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

Rev 19:19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
You say people will not go to heaven, but the scripture says they will. Your claims are unscriptural.

keras said:
John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians.

Jesus is talking about the disciples. Of course they cannot come out of the world because they must spread the Gospel. Once the Gospel has been spread across the world, then people can come out of the world as we know that and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

keras said:
Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11

Here we see 24 elders in heaven.........so........what you claim is incorrect.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Scripture proves that the things that you claim are incorrect. Here we see the great multitude BEFORE THE THRONE.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

I can't figure out why you are wasting your life posting things that can easily proven to be incorrect. What's the purpose? Where did all this come from? Can't you see that I have dis-proven every point you made? I'm sure others have done the same. Why are you doing this?............as it is obvious that you are incorrect. What do you need to see the truth?

Timtofly · Aug 3, 2020

Davy said:
Christ's Church IS... GOD's Israel. Apostle Paul was specific in Romans 9 that GOD's Israel is represented by those in Faith on the Promise, that Promise involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

Who do you think you are? You cannot change what Apostle Paul said there! He was emphatic that ONLY those in The Faith (that "promise" there) on Jesus Christ are COUNTED FOR THE SEED OF ISRAEL.

Like Paul also said in Galatians 3:22, the Scripture has concluded ALL under sin so that the PROMISE by Faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe! That is the same PROMISE Paul is talking about there in Romans 9, and you don't even realize it.

Per Galatians 3 also, Paul taught that those of Faith have believed the SAME FAITH as what Abraham believed, and thus have become the children of Abraham. That Faith is about the Gospel Promise of Jesus Christ. So The Gospel was always FIRST, prior to the giving of the law, and prior to the existence of the children of Israel.

The Promise continued through Isaac, and then to Jacob whom God gave the new name of Israel to represent The Gospel. Jacob overcame with God's help, which is the meaning of the name 'Israel'. That name Israel is the Salvation name through Christ Jesus, The Gospel. That is what it actually represents. So if flesh born Israelites want to be part of God's Salvation Plan fulfilled like He put forth through Abraham, Isaac, and then Jacob, then Israelites better get on board as to what God ordained His Israel for! And that is to be ambassadors to the nations in preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ!

The church is the spiritual seed of Adam. Israel has spiritual seed in the church, but Israel is not spiritual. Israel is the physical seed of Adam. Paul does not forget this fact. Paul is a Jew speaking to his own people. He is also trying to bring Gentiles in but not convert them to Judaism. The church was seen as a sect of Judaism. Did Paul's reverse psychology work? We will only know when we die. I would say raptured, but that would set off an angry mob of eschatological posters.

keras · Aug 4, 2020

Choose Wisely said:
I can't figure out why you are wasting your life posting things that can easily proven to be incorrect. What's the purpose? Where did all this come from? Can't you see that I have dis-proven every point you made? I'm sure others have done the same. Why are you doing this?............as it is obvious that you are incorrect. What do you need to see the truth?

I know this: there will be no general 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.
You can misread and twist scripture to suit your beliefs, but that doesn't change God's Plan to have His people on earth in His holy Land. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where the holy people of God are present in the holy Land, when that area is conquered by the Anti-Christ. Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:12
The idea that those holy people are the Jews, is wrong, because they will be punished at the Sixth Seal event and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, +
Also according to Zechariah 12, that Jewish remnant will not acknowledge Jesus until He Returns.
What is obvious; is that you are incorrect and the 'rapture' theory is a lie from the father of lies.

BABerean2 · Aug 4, 2020

Timtofly said:
He is also trying to bring Gentiles in but not convert them to Judaism. The church was seen as a sect of Judaism.

Why are you ignoring the New Covenant?

The battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant began in Acts chapter 15 and continues to the present time. During most of that time the Judaisers have won the day.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, we can see the New Covenant is not "Judaism".

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

Timtofly · Aug 4, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Why are you ignoring the New Covenant?

The battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant began in Acts chapter 15 and continues to the present time. During most of that time the Judaisers have won the day.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, we can see the New Covenant is not "Judaism".

You are ignoring what the new covenant is. It is not to Physical Israel!! The New Covenant was to all the descendants of Adam! The physical covenant of Israel was for the Gentiles, if they became circumcised under the Law. Forget all about Judaism and Judaisers. They are the harlot religion of The Law. Forget that all may be the physical seed of Abraham. That is the carnality of religious thought. God redeemed all of Adam's fallen descendants unto Himself. That is the spiritual covenant. God chose physical Abraham as a physical covenant.

At the Second Coming, Paul claims the church, the spiritual covenant will be taken away first. The spiritual covenant will be completed. Then John claims there is going to be a short period of the physical covenant with physical Israel. See? Israel was never spiritual. Adam's descendants were the spiritual covenant!! Of course the seed of Abraham is included in the spiritual covenant, they are still descendants of Adam. Also Abraham's descendants were still the physical covenant that blessed the whole world to this day. The spiritual covenant also blessed the whole world to this day. What Jesus did on the cross, fulfilled God’s requirement for both covenants. God redeemed mankind as God promised Adam and Eve. God redeemed mankind as He promised Abraham and Jacob (Israel).

In order to see the truth, you have to clear the religious aspect of both "Christianity" and Judaism out of your thinking. God's covenant was not to any religion, theology, doctrine, or creed. That is all added human understanding, and sometimes racist at it's worse, and patronizing at best. Religion is a form of government. The Law was not a government. It was an economy. The kingdom Israel demanded, changed the law from an economy to a form of government. Constantine turned Christianity into a government and religion. The church was no longer the grace of God's covenant, but a harlot to the world.

BABerean2 · Aug 4, 2020

Timtofly said:
At the Second Coming, Paul claims the church, the spiritual covenant will be taken away first. The spiritual covenant will be completed. Then John claims there is going to be a short period of the physical covenant with physical Israel. See? Israel was never spiritual.

You are ignoring what Christ told Nicodemus about being "born again" of the Spirit of God.

Nobody can inherit the kingdom without being "born again" of the Spirit of God.
There is no Plan B for physical Israel.

Based on the way Christ talked to Nicodemus, it was something Nicodemus should have known.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Should Nicodemus have understood the verse below?

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

.

Timtofly · Aug 4, 2020

BABerean2 said:
You are ignoring what Christ told Nicodemus about being "born again" of the Spirit of God.

Nobody can inherit the kingdom without being "born again" of the Spirit of God.
There is no Plan B for physical Israel.

Based on the way Christ talked to Nicodemus, it was something Nicodemus should have known.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Should Nicodemus have understood the verse below?

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

I clearly understand the two births. Why do some force the spiritual birth where it does not belong? Enoch understood clearly, and he did not have any of God’s Word. Why do those who do have God’s Word not understand? It is not complicated. It is not rocket science. It is not evolution. It is people thinking they know better than God, who make it so difficult, that it takes a 4 year degree, of false teaching to figure it all out.

It is only through the Holy Spirit who opens the hearts and eyes of the blind so they can see through the human education that has blinded them. Satan has offered the world knowledge since Eve, who was his first pupil. It has not always worked out for the best, since history has been fraught with horrible examples, of those who thought Satan had given them truthful information.

Davy · Aug 5, 2020

Timtofly said:
The church is the spiritual seed of Adam. Israel has spiritual seed in the church, but Israel is not spiritual. Israel is the physical seed of Adam. Paul does not forget this fact. Paul is a Jew speaking to his own people. He is also trying to bring Gentiles in but not convert them to Judaism. The church was seen as a sect of Judaism. Did Paul's reverse psychology work? We will only know when we die. I would say raptured, but that would set off an angry mob of eschatological posters.

That's another working that is busy making up one's own religious philosophy. That's what most preachers today in the pulpits teach their members, which strays from the simplicity of God's written Word.

The name 'Israel' represents the overcomers in Christ Jesus. That is actually what the name means, to prevail with God.

Gen 32:24-28
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, "Let me go, for the day breaketh." And he said, "I will not let thee go, except thou bless me."
27 And he said unto him, "What is thy name?" And he said, "Jacob."
28 And he said, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."
KJV

And Apostle Paul in Romans 9 was speaking to ROMAN GENTILE believers on Christ Jesus, not just Jews.

Timtofly · Aug 5, 2020

Davy said:
That's another working that is busy making up one's own religious philosophy. That's what most preachers today in the pulpits teach their members, which strays from the simplicity of God's written Word.

The name 'Israel' represents the overcomers in Christ Jesus. That is actually what the name means, to prevail with God.

Gen 32:24-28
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, "Let me go, for the day breaketh." And he said, "I will not let thee go, except thou bless me."
27 And he said unto him, "What is thy name?" And he said, "Jacob."
28 And he said, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."
KJV

And Apostle Paul in Romans 9 was speaking to ROMAN GENTILE believers on Christ Jesus, not just Jews.

Are you accusing Paul of being too complicated?

Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Forgiven

Forgiven

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Forgiven

Forgiven

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads