The Bible - The first obstacle

Sean5151 · Jul 24, 2020

I recently just got back into Christianity after losing faith for some time. I know it is going to be a struggle for me, but I'm determined to stick to my faith and hopefully grow spiritually.
I went and got myself a new bible several days ago and have started reading the bible again.
There are some questions I need answers to though which I never got answers to before,
then again I never really asked. My hope is that I can find the answers on this forum.

The first to be found is in the Old Testament - Book of Genesis

God said that Adam and Eve could eat of every tree in the Garden of Eden, but they must not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, or they would surely die. The serpent however said that they would not die if they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They did of course eat of this tree, and as the serpent said they did not die.

Looking at this story it is clear that God told a lie, and in fact rather than being crafty and sly the serpent actually told the truth. God then cursed Adam and Eve, and he said ''Behold, the man has become like us in knowing good and evil. Now lest he reach out his hand and take also of the Tree of Life and, live for ever. Then God banished him out of the Garden of Eden, and placed Cherubim and Flaming Sword that turned every way to guard the way to the Tree of Life.

I hate to say this but there is a fundamental flaw here, and it is one that I have struggled with in regard to the Old Testament, because The bible says this in regard to lies.

Proverbs 12:22 – The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.

Luke 16:10 Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.

Proverbs 10:9 – Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out.

Philippians 4: 25-27 & 29 – Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. In your anger do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

1 Peter 3:10-12 – For whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer.
God Tells Us Not to Lie

Exodus 20:16 (From the 10 Commandments) – You must not lie.

Proverbs 6:12-13 – Let me describe for you a worthless and a wicked man; first, he is a constant liar; he signals his true intentions to his friends with eyes and feet and fingers.

Proverbs 6:16-19 – For there are six things the Lord hates—no, seven: haughtiness, lying, murdering, plotting evil, eagerness to do wrong, a false witness, sowing discord among brothers.

Proverbs 19:9 – A false witness shall be punished, and a liar shall be caught.

Proverbs 21:6 & 8 – A fortune made by people who tell lies amounts to nothing and leads to death. …But the conduct of those who are not guilty is honest.

Luke 8:17 – For all that is secret will eventually be brought into the open, and everything that is concealed will be brought to light and made known to all.

Psalm 12:2-6 – Everyone deceives and flatters and lies. There is no sincerity left. But the Lord will not deal gently with people who act like that; he will destroy those proud liars who say, “We will lie to our heart’s content. Our lips are our own; who can stop us? The Lord replies, “I will arise and defend the oppressed, the poor, the needy. I will rescue them as they have longed for me to do.” The Lord’s promise is sure. He speaks no careless word; all he says is purest truth, like silver seven times refined.
Satan – The Father of All Lies

John 8:44 – For you are the children of your father the devil and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning and a hater of truth—there is not an iota of truth in him. When he lies, it is perfectly normal; for he is the father of liars.

So can you see my point, the God of the Old Testament is supposedly the same as the God of the New Testament, yet I can see contradictions and cruelty in the ways of God in the Old Testament, while in the New Testament God is clearly loving and forgiving, and there is no sign of untruth.

Should we not as Christians completely abandon the Old Testament?
After all a lot of it is not relevant to todays times, and I don't think it paints God in a good way
I wonder whether it is even that accurate, I think it may have come from the lips of educated men that really just wanted to have control over less educated people. Scare them into submission.

As a Christian I can accept the New Testament, but I am certainly struggling when it comes to the Old Testament. Am I the only Christian on this forum that feels this way?
I think it is important that we do not just accept everything in the bible without questioning it.
I don't have a reasonable answer to the question I have posed, but maybe someone else does, and I would be interested to know what everyone thinks on this.

Tolworth John · Jul 24, 2020

Sean5151 said:
is clear that God told a lie,

No you do not realise there are various ways of understanding the Hebrew.
One way is that the death was a spiritual death. Read further and you see there fear when they realize that God is coming.
Why did they fear? One explanation is that in breaking God's clear instruction they also broke there relationship with God and went instantly from being a friend to an enemy.

Rachel20 · Jul 24, 2020

I've heard some say the language meant that Adam would "begin" to die in that day. Personally, I believe God meant "day" as a day in his sight (see below). If so, Adam certainly did die in that day.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Psalms 90:4

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. Genesis 5:5

Tolworth John · Jul 24, 2020

Sean5151 said:
the God of the Old Testament is supposedly the same as the God of the New Testament, yet I can see contradictions and cruelty in the ways of God in the Old Testament, while in the New Testament God is clearly loving and forgiving, and there is no sign of untruth.

Really so God saying he shows love to a thousand generations who keep his commandments is a God of cruelty. See Deut 5:10+7:9 Exodus 20:6.
You are aware that God promises Jesus in Genesis, that without an OT there is no N T.
You will have read in acts that various disciples debated with the Jews proving from the scripture ( Old Testament ) that Jesus was the Messiah..
On the road to ensure when Jesus walked with two disappointed followers he showed them from the scriptures ( Old Testament ) that he had to suffer.
There is only one God and we find him in the Bible, yes we see different aspects of his character in different bits.
But learn from this God is Holy as holy as you see in the OT where people died because they did not follow his instructions. That same God sent Jesus to save those who will accept him.
All who will not accept him will face an eternal punishment.

Bobber · Jul 24, 2020

Sean5151 said:
I recently just got back into Christianity after losing faith for some time. I know it is going to be a struggle for me, but I'm determined to stick to my faith and hopefully grow spiritually.
I went and got myself a new bible several days ago and have started reading the bible again.
There are some questions I need answers to though which I never got answers to before,
then again I never really asked. My hope is that I can find the answers on this forum.

The first to be found is in the Old Testament - Book of Genesis

God said that Adam and Eve could eat of every tree in the Garden of Eden, but they must not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, or they would surely die. The serpent however said that they would not die if they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They did of course eat of this tree, and as the serpent said they did not die.

Looking at this story it is clear that God told a lie, and in fact rather than being crafty and sly the serpent actually told the truth.

No God DIDN'T lie for they DID die. You need to study what they Bible describes as spiritual death. Spiritual death means one's spirit is out of fellowship with God. It doesn't mean a cessation of consciousness or not to be aware of physical things. Jesus told Nicodemus Jn 3:3 that Man's number one primary need was to be BORN again.....in other words a spiritual regeneration which causes one to pass over from DEATH to LIFE.

God then cursed Adam and Eve, and he said ''Behold, the man has become like us in knowing good and evil.

God knew what evil was from the standpoint of seeing it experienced through the fall of Satan and a smaller percentage of angels in times past. Now MAN was going to KNOW evil by experience as well.....which didn't have to . And God didn't say that by experience man wouldn't know good and evil. What God said was the moment they'd sin they'd die, meaning their spirits would not have the glory and life of God within them. That's spiritual death.

Now lest he reach out his hand and take also of the Tree of Life and, live for ever. Then God banished him out of the Garden of Eden, and placed Cherubim and Flaming Sword that turned every way to guard the way to the Tree of Life.

But that was a blessing to them. You must understand if they partook now of the Tree of Life experiencing physical immortality with spiritual death still lodged in their spirits there would be no way of getting rid of the curse. So imagine just about every disease known to man placed in a body....and yet....it never would die. God knew he had to take spiritual death out of man's spirit by a recreation of the spirit....what happens when one is born again. 2 Cor 5:17 And we have the Tree of Life now as a future promise when it really is the time to have it. Rev 2:7

As a Christian I can accept the New Testament, but I am certainly struggling when it comes to the Old Testament.

I think a lot of your concerns would be alleviated if you understood the fullness of what really happened and why.

I think it is important that we do not just accept everything in the bible without questioning it.

I'd say it all depends on what you mean "without questioning it". I think we can ask for ex, when was Jesus born of a virgin?.....where was he born of a virgin?.....why was he born of a virgin? but do we have a right to ask was he born of a virgin? I think not. That draws into question the integrity of the revelation of God to man. And there may be times he'll tell us certain things are none of our business to ask.....as Peter asked the Lord what about John's future. Jn 21:21 And there may be questions God won't answer for he'd say I want you to focus on other things right now.....as in when they asked him in Acts 1:6 if he was going to now set up his kingdom.

Sean5151 · Jul 25, 2020

Tolworth John said:
No you do not realise there are various ways of understanding the Hebrew.
One way is that the death was a spiritual death. Read further and you see there fear when they realize that God is coming.
Why did they fear? One explanation is that in breaking God's clear instruction they also broke there relationship with God and went instantly from being a friend to an enemy.

Thankyou Tolworth John, you are surely blessed for God used you to give me the answer in simple ways I could understand. I can now move past this obstacle that was put before me blinding my sight.

Just the other week I asked God a question, and I found myself compelled to turn on Premier Christian radio. It was a pastor speaking who was half way through his surmon, and at the exact moment I had turned the radio station on the pastor gave me the answer in the first sentence I heard him speak.

I'm learning to listen now, I know how God chooses to speak to me, and I have a message for someone on this forum, or maybe it is some people I don't know, but I know I felt compelled to post it, and I truly believe God spoke to me and wanted me to pass the message on, it is taken from the bible.

For we wrestle not against flesh and
blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of
the darkness of this world, against
spiritual wickedness in high places
(Ephesians 6:12)

I believe I know what this means, but it is not for me to try to interpret, it is for the person or persons it is meant for to try to understand.

God bless everyone of you, and thankyou all for your answers to my question. I can now move forward with my bible study.

Tolworth John · Jul 25, 2020

Sean5151 said:
. I can now move forward with my bible study.

Glad you thought It helpped, may I suggest checking out the Christianity explored web site for churches in your area and check out whether they have online services etc.

Sean5151 · Jul 25, 2020

Tolworth John said:
Glad you thought It helpped, may I suggest checking out the Christianity explored web site for churches in your area and check out whether they have online services etc.

Thankyou, I shall check that out later.

RickardoHolmes · Aug 2, 2020

Sean, you chose the Title of the thread to read
The Bible - The first obstacle
That brings about more than a "Freudian slip" but it hints to a problem you may be experiencing, one which has sadly, caused numerous problems for many.

The Bible is an obstacle to God when anyone replaces God with the Bible. I have noted many people here have a great relationship with a book, but not with a God.
Here are some things to remember.

The Bible, especially the Old testament, is of stories (fables) which the Jewish people used to preserve and educate generations about the Jewish history and faith. It is not all inclusive, nor is it complete. It is useful to understand what certain people might have believed some 3,000 years ago.
But a few other things to remember. It is not science. It is not very accurate. and it is not to ever be taken literally. It is theology. It is NOT God...but parts of it may point the way to God. In the end, one must find God on one's own terms, not through or in a book, but in life and reality. Parts of it may have been inspired by some who were close to God (some more than others) yet people seem to confuse the concepts of scripture with the concepts of Biblianism, and sadly, few Biblians really even know from whence the Bible came, and how it became scripture. (Spoiler alert, NO it did not fall out of the sky and NO "God" did not write it)

It is scripture, and it has some uses, but at some time, must move on from it, as mentioned by the writer of
Hebrews
13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply you.” 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise.

The promise fulfilled by God, in His radiant Glory and Love, is His SON, not a book.

Some will argue that Paul wrote
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Then try to use that as a basis for Sola Scriptura, which is a prime example of the Bible AS a barrier to God. Any intelligent person would understand that the "scripture" of which Paul spoke would have referred to ancient writing's probably specifically the Torah, and that the Bible did not even exist in Paul's time. (Mine lacks most of Paul's writings but that is another story)

We must look to the Source of ALL being and when we do, we find His Works all around in the Beauty of his creation, in the expressions of Love in our works and the Good Fruits which are the by-products of our faith.
Amen

Sean5151 · Aug 3, 2020

RickardoHolmes said:
Sean, you chose the Title of the thread to read
The Bible - The first obstacle
That brings about more than a "Freudian slip" but it hints to a problem you may be experiencing, one which has sadly, caused numerous problems for many.

The Bible is an obstacle to God when anyone replaces God with the Bible. I have noted many people here have a great relationship with a book, but not with a God.
Here are some things to remember.

The Bible, especially the Old testament, is of stories (fables) which the Jewish people used to preserve and educate generations about the Jewish history and faith. It is not all inclusive, nor is it complete. It is useful to understand what certain people might have believed some 3,000 years ago.
But a few other things to remember. It is not science. It is not very accurate. and it is not to ever be taken literally. It is theology. It is NOT God...but parts of it may point the way to God. In the end, one must find God on one's own terms, not through or in a book, but in life and reality. Parts of it may have been inspired by some who were close to God (some more than others) yet people seem to confuse the concepts of scripture with the concepts of Biblianism, and sadly, few Biblians really even know from whence the Bible came, and how it became scripture. (Spoiler alert, NO it did not fall out of the sky and NO "God" did not write it)

It is scripture, and it has some uses, but at some time, must move on from it, as mentioned by the writer of
Hebrews
13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply you.” 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise.

The promise fulfilled by God, in His radiant Glory and Love, is His SON, not a book.

Some will argue that Paul wrote
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Then try to use that as a basis for Sola Scriptura, which is a prime example of the Bible AS a barrier to God. Any intelligent person would understand that the "scripture" of which Paul spoke would have referred to ancient writing's probably specifically the Torah, and that the Bible did not even exist in Paul's time. (Mine lacks most of Paul's writings but that is another story)

We must look to the Source of ALL being and when we do, we find His Works all around in the Beauty of his creation, in the expressions of Love in our works and the Good Fruits which are the by-products of our faith.
Amen

Isaiah 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!

Proverbs 26:12
Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Luke 16:15
And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:16
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight.

Proverbs 25:27
It is not good to eat much honey, nor is it glorious to seek one's own glory.

2 Corinthians 10:18
For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

Obadiah 1:3
The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rock, in your lofty dwelling, who say in your heart, “Who will bring me down to the ground?”

Jeremiah 9:23
Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches,

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze

Proverbs 21:24
“Scoffer” is the name of the arrogant, haughty man who acts with arrogant pride.

Philippians 2:2-4
Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Galatians 6:3
For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

Isaiah 16:6
We have heard of the pride of Moab— how proud he is!— of his arrogance, his pride, and his insolence; in his idle boasting he is not right.

Daniel 5:20
But when his heart was lifted up and his spirit was hardened so that he dealt proudly, he was brought down from his kingly throne, and his glory was taken from him.

James 4:6
But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Isaiah 2:11
The haughty looks of man shall be brought low, and the lofty pride of men shall be humbled, and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Philippians 2:4
Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Proverbs 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.

Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 16:5
Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

Galatians 6:4
But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.

Proverbs 29:23
One's pride will bring him low, but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

Luke 18:9-14
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ ...

Matthew 7:1-2
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Luke 1:51
He has shown strength with his arm; he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;

Proverbs 18:12
Before destruction a man's heart is haughty, but humility comes before honor.

Psalm 138:6
For though the Lord is high, he regards the lowly, but the haughty he knows from afar.

Proverbs 27:2
Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.

1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant.

Matthew 23:12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Psalm 59:12
For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips, let them be trapped in their pride. For the cursing and lies that they utter,

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure

Proverbs 21:4
Haughty eyes and a proud heart, the lamp of the wicked, are sin.

Ezekiel 28:17
Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.

Psalm 101:5
Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly I will destroy. Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure.

Proverbs 16:19
It is better to be of a lowly spirit with the poor than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Proverbs 3:34
Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor.

Revelation 3:17
For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

Luke 14:11
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Isaiah 2:12
For the Lord of hosts has a day against all that is proud and lofty, against all that is lifted up—and it shall be brought low;

Colossians 3:12
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

2 Corinthians 5:12
We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart.

1 Corinthians 13:4-5
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

Jeremiah 9:23-24
Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”

Isaiah 66:2
All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be, declares the Lord. But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word.

Isaiah 23:9
The Lord of hosts has purposed it, to defile the pompous pride of all glory, to dishonor all the honored of the earth.

Isaiah 13:11
I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.

Ecclesiastes 7:8
Better is the end of a thing than its beginning, and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.

Proverbs 27:1
Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring.

2 Chronicles 26:16
But when he was strong, he grew proud, to his destruction. For he was unfaithful to the Lord his God and entered the temple of the Lord to burn incense on the altar of incense.

Zephaniah 3:11
“On that day you shall not be put to shame because of the deeds by which you have rebelled against me; for then I will remove from your midst your proudly exultant ones, and you shall no longer be haughty in my holy mountain.

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Scott Husted · Aug 11, 2020

Sean5151 said:
I recently just got back into Christianity after losing faith for some time. I know it is going to be a struggle for me, but I'm determined to stick to my faith and hopefully grow spiritually.
I went and got myself a new bible several days ago and have started reading the bible again.
There are some questions I need answers to though which I never got answers to before,
then again I never really asked. My hope is that I can find the answers on this forum.

The first to be found is in the Old Testament - Book of Genesis

God said that Adam and Eve could eat of every tree in the Garden of Eden, but they must not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, or they would surely die. The serpent however said that they would not die if they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They did of course eat of this tree, and as the serpent said they did not die.

Looking at this story it is clear that God told a lie, and in fact rather than being crafty and sly the serpent actually told the truth. God then cursed Adam and Eve, and he said ''Behold, the man has become like us in knowing good and evil. Now lest he reach out his hand and take also of the Tree of Life and, live for ever. Then God banished him out of the Garden of Eden, and placed Cherubim and Flaming Sword that turned every way to guard the way to the Tree of Life.

I hate to say this but there is a fundamental flaw here, and it is one that I have struggled with in regard to the Old Testament, because The bible says this in regard to lies.

Proverbs 12:22 – The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.

Luke 16:10 Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.

Proverbs 10:9 – Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out.

Philippians 4: 25-27 & 29 – Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. In your anger do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

1 Peter 3:10-12 – For whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer.
God Tells Us Not to Lie

Exodus 20:16 (From the 10 Commandments) – You must not lie.

Proverbs 6:12-13 – Let me describe for you a worthless and a wicked man; first, he is a constant liar; he signals his true intentions to his friends with eyes and feet and fingers.

Proverbs 6:16-19 – For there are six things the Lord hates—no, seven: haughtiness, lying, murdering, plotting evil, eagerness to do wrong, a false witness, sowing discord among brothers.

Proverbs 19:9 – A false witness shall be punished, and a liar shall be caught.

Proverbs 21:6 & 8 – A fortune made by people who tell lies amounts to nothing and leads to death. …But the conduct of those who are not guilty is honest.

Luke 8:17 – For all that is secret will eventually be brought into the open, and everything that is concealed will be brought to light and made known to all.

Psalm 12:2-6 – Everyone deceives and flatters and lies. There is no sincerity left. But the Lord will not deal gently with people who act like that; he will destroy those proud liars who say, “We will lie to our heart’s content. Our lips are our own; who can stop us? The Lord replies, “I will arise and defend the oppressed, the poor, the needy. I will rescue them as they have longed for me to do.” The Lord’s promise is sure. He speaks no careless word; all he says is purest truth, like silver seven times refined.
Satan – The Father of All Lies

John 8:44 – For you are the children of your father the devil and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning and a hater of truth—there is not an iota of truth in him. When he lies, it is perfectly normal; for he is the father of liars.

So can you see my point, the God of the Old Testament is supposedly the same as the God of the New Testament, yet I can see contradictions and cruelty in the ways of God in the Old Testament, while in the New Testament God is clearly loving and forgiving, and there is no sign of untruth.

Should we not as Christians completely abandon the Old Testament?
After all a lot of it is not relevant to todays times, and I don't think it paints God in a good way
I wonder whether it is even that accurate, I think it may have come from the lips of educated men that really just wanted to have control over less educated people. Scare them into submission.

As a Christian I can accept the New Testament, but I am certainly struggling when it comes to the Old Testament. Am I the only Christian on this forum that feels this way?
I think it is important that we do not just accept everything in the bible without questioning it.
I don't have a reasonable answer to the question I have posed, but maybe someone else does, and I would be interested to know what everyone thinks on this.

The Bible from beginning to end is a perception in progress ...

The symbolism found in the Bible is much more detailed, and the more you behold it so to speak the deeper it becomes in relationship to us.

The tree of knowledge yields its fruit by not eating of it; through obedience.

Radagast · Aug 11, 2020

Sean5151 said:
They did of course eat of this tree, and as the serpent said they did not die.

They both died. First spiritually, and later physically.

Sean5151 said:
Looking at this story it is clear that God told a lie

That is false blasphemous.

Sean5151 · Aug 11, 2020

Radagast, if you had read the thread properly you have understood I was asking for an explanation about those verses, to try to understand what they meant. In actual fact they have already been explained to my satifaction by those who posted answers before you. I would agree that my comment might of seemed blasphemous but it was not intended that way. However as God reads the hearts of men and understands what I truely was asking being with no intention to blaspheme, I would hope that I am forgiven for that. Thankyou for bringing it to my attention anyway, as I will now pray for forgiveness.

HelenScot · Aug 19, 2020

Sean5151 said:
I recently just got back into Christianity after losing faith for some time. I know it is going to be a struggle for me, but I'm determined to stick to my faith and hopefully grow spiritually.
I went and got myself a new bible several days ago and have started reading the bible again.
There are some questions I need answers to though which I never got answers to before,
then again I never really asked. My hope is that I can find the answers on this forum.

The first to be found is in the Old Testament - Book of Genesis

God said that Adam and Eve could eat of every tree in the Garden of Eden, but they must not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, or they would surely die. The serpent however said that they would not die if they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They did of course eat of this tree, and as the serpent said they did not die.

Looking at this story it is clear that God told a lie, and in fact rather than being crafty and sly the serpent actually told the truth. God then cursed Adam and Eve, and he said ''Behold, the man has become like us in knowing good and evil. Now lest he reach out his hand and take also of the Tree of Life and, live for ever. Then God banished him out of the Garden of Eden, and placed Cherubim and Flaming Sword that turned every way to guard the way to the Tree of Life.

I hate to say this but there is a fundamental flaw here, and it is one that I have struggled with in regard to the Old Testament, because The bible says this in regard to lies.

Proverbs 12:22 – The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.

Luke 16:10 Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.

Proverbs 10:9 – Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out.

Philippians 4: 25-27 & 29 – Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. In your anger do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

1 Peter 3:10-12 – For whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer.
God Tells Us Not to Lie

Exodus 20:16 (From the 10 Commandments) – You must not lie.

Proverbs 6:12-13 – Let me describe for you a worthless and a wicked man; first, he is a constant liar; he signals his true intentions to his friends with eyes and feet and fingers.

Proverbs 6:16-19 – For there are six things the Lord hates—no, seven: haughtiness, lying, murdering, plotting evil, eagerness to do wrong, a false witness, sowing discord among brothers.

Proverbs 19:9 – A false witness shall be punished, and a liar shall be caught.

Proverbs 21:6 & 8 – A fortune made by people who tell lies amounts to nothing and leads to death. …But the conduct of those who are not guilty is honest.

Luke 8:17 – For all that is secret will eventually be brought into the open, and everything that is concealed will be brought to light and made known to all.

Psalm 12:2-6 – Everyone deceives and flatters and lies. There is no sincerity left. But the Lord will not deal gently with people who act like that; he will destroy those proud liars who say, “We will lie to our heart’s content. Our lips are our own; who can stop us? The Lord replies, “I will arise and defend the oppressed, the poor, the needy. I will rescue them as they have longed for me to do.” The Lord’s promise is sure. He speaks no careless word; all he says is purest truth, like silver seven times refined.
Satan – The Father of All Lies

John 8:44 – For you are the children of your father the devil and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning and a hater of truth—there is not an iota of truth in him. When he lies, it is perfectly normal; for he is the father of liars.

So can you see my point, the God of the Old Testament is supposedly the same as the God of the New Testament, yet I can see contradictions and cruelty in the ways of God in the Old Testament, while in the New Testament God is clearly loving and forgiving, and there is no sign of untruth.

Should we not as Christians completely abandon the Old Testament?
After all a lot of it is not relevant to todays times, and I don't think it paints God in a good way
I wonder whether it is even that accurate, I think it may have come from the lips of educated men that really just wanted to have control over less educated people. Scare them into submission.

As a Christian I can accept the New Testament, but I am certainly struggling when it comes to the Old Testament. Am I the only Christian on this forum that feels this way?
I think it is important that we do not just accept everything in the bible without questioning it.
I don't have a reasonable answer to the question I have posed, but maybe someone else does, and I would be interested to know what everyone thinks on this.

God is incapable of telling lies as he is perfect and holy.
They did die: they died spiritually and lost communion with God. At that point sin came in to the world and put a wall between them and God.
However, God sent Jesus to break down that wall of sin and open a way of redemption. Hallelujah!

My advice to you is to find a church that will give sound preaching and full expositions of God’s word from both the Old and New Testament. Only a preacher who has a sound knowledge of Greek and Hebrew will be able to explain in depth the meaning of God’s Word.

The Bible - The first obstacle

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