Does going to an institutionalized chirch actually hinder our relationship with Christ?

ByTheSpirit

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What I mean is, we go to this gathering that is Pastor-centric and run completely on the dictations of a Pastor (who may or may not believe in the Holy Spirit's leading). We are spoon fed sermons and teachings that may sound good and appeal to our senses, but thats not discipleship. Such places, a normal parishioner would be lucky to get 10 seconds of the pastors pastors time. Sure, there will be others who can "be in training" or pastors of something or another, made up positions that bring manmade structure into Gods body. So people can fall into this trap of I dont need to read or pray because Im going to get a sermon on Sunday and Ill have prayer time in church, or even worse "unless Im in church I cant pray". These are all things Ive heard before no joke.

So thus my question, do institutionalized churches actually hinder our walk with Christ? Because no real discipleship can happen and people look to the pastor for leadership and guidance instead of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Dave L

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What I mean is, we go to this gathering that is Pastor-centric and run completely on the dictations of a Pastor (who may or may not believe in the Holy Spirit's leading). We are spoon fed sermons and teachings that may sound good and appeal to our senses, but thats not discipleship. Such places, a normal parishioner would be lucky to get 10 seconds of the pastors pastors time. Sure, there will be others who can "be in training" or pastors of something or another, made up positions that bring manmade structure into Gods body. So people can fall into this trap of I dont need to read or pray because Im going to get a sermon on Sunday and Ill have prayer time in church, or even worse "unless Im in church I cant pray". These are all things Ive heard before no joke.

So thus my question, do institutionalized churches actually hinder our walk with Christ? Because no real discipleship can happen and people look to the pastor for leadership and guidance instead of the Holy Spirit.
Doubts about denominations
 
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eleos1954

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What I mean is, we go to this gathering that is Pastor-centric and run completely on the dictations of a Pastor (who may or may not believe in the Holy Spirit's leading). We are spoon fed sermons and teachings that may sound good and appeal to our senses, but thats not discipleship. Such places, a normal parishioner would be lucky to get 10 seconds of the pastors pastors time. Sure, there will be others who can "be in training" or pastors of something or another, made up positions that bring manmade structure into Gods body. So people can fall into this trap of I dont need to read or pray because Im going to get a sermon on Sunday and Ill have prayer time in church, or even worse "unless Im in church I cant pray". These are all things Ive heard before no joke.

So thus my question, do institutionalized churches actually hinder our walk with Christ? Because no real discipleship can happen and people look to the pastor for leadership and guidance instead of the Holy Spirit.

Bible does teach there are wolves among the sheep ... false teachers etc.

Everyone should be noble like the Bereans ... no matter where the teachings are coming from ... get in His Word ... stay in His Word .... study continuously ... delight in His truth.


Acts 17:11
Berean Study Bible
Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

Psalm 119-105

104 I gain understanding from Your precepts; therefore I hate every false way. 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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What I mean is, we go to this gathering that is Pastor-centric and run completely on the dictations of a Pastor (who may or may not believe in the Holy Spirit's leading). We are spoon fed sermons and teachings that may sound good and appeal to our senses, but thats not discipleship. Such places, a normal parishioner would be lucky to get 10 seconds of the pastors pastors time. Sure, there will be others who can "be in training" or pastors of something or another, made up positions that bring manmade structure into Gods body. So people can fall into this trap of I dont need to read or pray because Im going to get a sermon on Sunday and Ill have prayer time in church, or even worse "unless Im in church I cant pray". These are all things Ive heard before no joke.

So thus my question, do institutionalized churches actually hinder our walk with Christ? Because no real discipleship can happen and people look to the pastor for leadership and guidance instead of the Holy Spirit.

If there are 100 church goers they will likely hear 100 different sermons on any given Sunday.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Simply put, no!

Some won't hear a sermon at all. Some miss key points in the sermon. A bunch of us used to discuss the sermons at lunch after church. I was always amazed by those who asked, "When did he say that?"
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Simply put, no!

Thats fair, and my statement is certainly not a be all fit all. I know some churches that are quite good at discipleship and such. But those are usually smaller and certainly not in the majority.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Some won't hear a sermon at all. Some miss key points in the sermon. A bunch of us used to discuss the sermons at lunch after church. I was always amazed by those who asked, "When did he say that?"

I like your statements. Theres truth to the statement of a single sermon can be heard and understood many different ways, but that is also my point to an extent. I suppose its up to the individual Christian at the end of the day, I just think churches aid those who are lazy by give ng them an easy out. And as I said to another, the larger the church gets the more dangerous it gets for a believers faith. They can easily start to cater to popular opinion thus compromising truth. Discipleship can be forgotten or lost in the mix.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Bible does teach there are wolves among the sheep ... false teachers etc.

Everyone should be noble like the Bereans ... no matter where the teachings are coming from ... get in His Word ... stay in His Word .... study continuously ... delight in His truth.


Acts 17:11
Berean Study Bible
Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

Psalm 119-105

104 I gain understanding from Your precepts; therefore I hate every false way. 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
Yes, personal accountsbility is certainly the key. But thats the purpose of my post, largef churches make it easy for people to just creep in and out. They become social hangouts instead of places where the Holy Spirit is honored and obeyed. Truth is compromised because sometimes truth is inconvenient to popular opinion. etc. Just as the Bereans, all should be vigilant and persistent in the Word.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I like your statements. Theres truth to the statement of a single sermon can be heard and understood many different ways, but that is also my point to an extent. I suppose its up to the individual Christian at the end of the day, I just think churches aid those who are lazy by give ng them an easy out. And as I said to another, the larger the church gets the more dangerous it gets for a believers faith. They can easily start to cater to popular opinion thus compromising truth. Discipleship can be forgotten or lost in the mix.

Truth seems to be anathema to the human mind. Even Christians have a hard time with it early on.
 
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AbbaLove

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... and people look to the pastor for leadership and guidance instead of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:26 describes the orderly use of the Spiritual Gifts among the *ekklesia (called out ones) from the world, by God. The translation of “called out ones” is referred to today as the church.

The "called out ones" from the world by God are more likely (but not always) to be of some Pentecostal/charismatic persuasion whose *Spirit-Led followers are more likely found worshiping in "non-denominational" fellowships.
 
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com7fy8

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Such places, a normal parishioner would be lucky to get 10 seconds of the pastors pastors time.
A pastor can be a source of spoon-fed attention. And people with personality problems can hook on to ministers they feel they can obligate to give them the attention they want. Instead, they need to be seeking and finding how to relate in love with various people, get strong so they can't get hurt, or sabotage relationships because of their temper and anger and mouth problems.

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (in James 1:19)

I have gotten very active during our church services, as a floor hospitality person. I could get to talking with and helping people before and all through a service, in one way or another. Then the COVID-19 thing came along. And I note with interest how no one seems to last more than a few minutes talking with me, on the phone or Zoom . . . except two people.

And I see I may be on time out. Possibly, I was making myself more and more the face of the church . . . too much for one person, anyway. So, this could be time for me to get a clue.

Because I am certain the real church can not be shut down by any sort of problem or persecution. It is reported how persecution can send the church underground where the church grows more than while it was accepted. So, my opinion is that now God's church has kept right on growing, while Sunday only and Wednesday-maybe items have been having issues.

I have read, over and over, how so-and-so misses everyone; but anyone could easily hold a service of five to ten or maybe more people in one's back yard, any time of the week, especially since more people now are not working; of course, they might be busy with their children being home.

Even so, how could that be harder than having a pick-up baseball game with ones distanced on seven positions of a baseball field? Ones all over the field have no problem communicating with one another; yet, ones have a major issue about being six or even twelve feet from each other.

And sports players have no problem being told to put on a mask. But they get what they want, from that.

Of course, people might not be able to afford the gas to go to other people's gatherings. But, then, where I am . . . I find it interesting how now members of our church are indeed some distance from each other. I can walk around, where I am, and not see one person I know from our church. And ones of my church and I do not even call each other, even though we are in the same town. I would say, that though we go to the same church, we never developed a relationship of ready access to each other.

But I have my lady friend and a guy I helped to trust in Jesus. So, I give them my attention as well as I can obey God guiding me. And I appreciate our sharing here in Christian Forums.

So, I consider God has arranged for us to deal more with what He wants each of us to do, versus depending on Sunday stuff to do everything. We can pray now and do all God has us do now.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I believe Church is for fellowship, and yes if you have a Godly pastor you can learn something from him but learning about HaShem and growing in faith is still personal.

I agree growing is personal but thats partly what my OP is about. I dont honestly think many leave church and have it in mind to do any more scripture study or prayer until the next service. And I feel that is because chruches now are geared to not press people. Seriously, I cant remember the last time I was in a church where the preacher seriously admonished the congregation on prayer and Bible Study. Not that those things are the end all be all of growing in Christ but they are a big part. So yes, faith and growing is personal but if a persons church isnt challenging them to do these things in increasing measures and giving tools and helps then they need to find someone who will, discipleship. It happens more in smaller groups
 
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1watchman

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That is often why I am impressed with the small Bible-only house meetings, where each saint can minister thoughts as of a "holy" and "royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2: 5 and 9). That kind of fellowship is explained quite well at the Biblecounsel.net web site, which helps me a lot.
 
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Our Lord is STILL WORKING TO SANCTIFY THE CHURCH. [ Ephesians 5:26 ; Hebrew 7:25 ]

When we cannot bear those who CALL THEMSELVES PASTORS AND ARE NOT because they don’t follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit and that their sermons and teachings only sound good and only appeal to senses or self indulgence, just like the teachings of Nicolatans and Balaam. The Lord KNOW OUR PATIENT ENDURANCE that we cannot bear with those who are EVIL.

Those who CALL THEMSELVES PASTORS AND ARE NOT but are just building a false church and imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

We have been foretold :
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. -2 Timothy 4:3-4

What are we to do?

He must HOLD FIRM to the TRUSTWORTHY WORD AS TAUGHT, so that he may be able to GIVE INSTRUCTION in SOUND DOCTRINE and also to REBUKE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT it. -Titus 1:9

I appeal to you, brothers, to WATCH OUT for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; AVOID THEM. -Romans 16:17

What our Lord would say to those who call themselves pastors and are not :

And He said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." -Mark 7:6-8

What are we called to do?

Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled.
Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. Titus 2:6-8

What should strive in our relationships with Christ?

until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
so that we may
NO LONGER BE children,
TOSSED TO AND FRO BY THE WAVES AND CARRIED ABOUT BY EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE,
BY HUMAN CUNNING,
BY CRAFTINESS IN DECEITFUL SCHEMES.
Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ,
FROM WHOM THE WHOLE BODY, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, WHEN EACH PART IS WORKING PROPERLY, MAKES THE BODY GROW so that it builds itself up in love. -Ephesians 4:13-16

Let us REMEMBER that we are no longer strangers and aliens but we are fellow citizens with God’s people and members of the family of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom THE WHOLE STRUCTURE, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Christ we also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Let us be THANKFUL that
in Christ, ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER.
[ Colossians 1:7]
Amen
 
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Tony B

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What I mean is, we go to this gathering that is Pastor-centric and run completely on the dictations of a Pastor (who may or may not believe in the Holy Spirit's leading). We are spoon fed sermons and teachings that may sound good and appeal to our senses, but thats not discipleship. Such places, a normal parishioner would be lucky to get 10 seconds of the pastors pastors time. Sure, there will be others who can "be in training" or pastors of something or another, made up positions that bring manmade structure into Gods body. So people can fall into this trap of I dont need to read or pray because Im going to get a sermon on Sunday and Ill have prayer time in church, or even worse "unless Im in church I cant pray". These are all things Ive heard before no joke.

So thus my question, do institutionalized churches actually hinder our walk with Christ? Because no real discipleship can happen and people look to the pastor for leadership and guidance instead of the Holy Spirit.

Yes.
 
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ChristServant

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What I mean is, we go to this gathering that is Pastor-centric and run completely on the dictations of a Pastor (who may or may not believe in the Holy Spirit's leading). We are spoon fed sermons and teachings that may sound good and appeal to our senses, but thats not discipleship. Such places, a normal parishioner would be lucky to get 10 seconds of the pastors pastors time. Sure, there will be others who can "be in training" or pastors of something or another, made up positions that bring manmade structure into Gods body. So people can fall into this trap of I dont need to read or pray because Im going to get a sermon on Sunday and Ill have prayer time in church, or even worse "unless Im in church I cant pray". These are all things Ive heard before no joke.

So thus my question, do institutionalized churches actually hinder our walk with Christ? Because no real discipleship can happen and people look to the pastor for leadership and guidance instead of the Holy Spirit.

100%. Yes an institutionalized church can actually hinder our relationship with Christ. Why do you think so many fall away when they accept Christ within certain church organizations. They go looking for truth and real Christianity and find people the same as their neighbors. Gossips, back biters, unloving, lovers of money and worldly, not following what scripture tells them and hating other Christians because they have a different doctrinal stance.

I have been to many churches when I was searching and seen many of these things. Doctrinal Christians I've seen and spoken to believe they have special knowledge or a special connection to GOD that others do not, which makes them haughty and self righteous amongst other things, just as the Pharisees Christ spoke of.


We no longer look to be served. We look to serve and give our lives for others. No longer fight for privilege, influence and status. We esteem others better than ourselves and put their interests above our own.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him

Peace be with all those in the body of Christ
 
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grasping the after wind

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What I mean is, we go to this gathering that is Pastor-centric and run completely on the dictations of a Pastor (who may or may not believe in the Holy Spirit's leading). We are spoon fed sermons and teachings that may sound good and appeal to our senses, but thats not discipleship. Such places, a normal parishioner would be lucky to get 10 seconds of the pastors pastors time. Sure, there will be others who can "be in training" or pastors of something or another, made up positions that bring manmade structure into Gods body. So people can fall into this trap of I dont need to read or pray because Im going to get a sermon on Sunday and Ill have prayer time in church, or even worse "unless Im in church I cant pray". These are all things Ive heard before no joke.

So thus my question, do institutionalized churches actually hinder our walk with Christ? Because no real discipleship can happen and people look to the pastor for leadership and guidance instead of the Holy Spirit.

They can be a stumbling block . All depends upon the congregation and the individual. In my experience there are many people attending a church service who are not necessarily very committed to the faith. I do not know if that would change under other circumstances .
 
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