No Stone Age or Bronze Age in Genesis

Dale

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I'm not sure people realize in how many ways the creation story in Genesis conflicts with everything we know from every other source. We don't have to go back to the origin of the universe, to the dinosaurs or even to the Neanderthals to show that a literal reading of Genesis is incomplete.

There is massive evidence that for tens of thousands of years, the highest technology used by modern humans was stone. This was the Old Stone Age, or Paleolithic era. People were nomadic, there were no permanent dwellings. They were hunter-gatherers, which is why they had to be nomads. They followed the game animals they lived on. They did use fire. The population of the world was probably never more than about a million people.

In the New Stone Age, or Neolithic era, humans learned to make more sophisticated stone tools such as stone axes and better arrowheads.

At some point, people learned to melt copper and cast it. Some call this the Copper age, although the use of copper did not change things very much. Then tin was discovered. Early peoples did not find tin to be useful in itself, but mixing copper with a small amount of tin produces bronze. When people started making things out of bronze, the Bronze Age began. The use of iron was still in the future.

The Bronze Age meant better weapons and it coincided with ship building and travel across seas. Agriculture and domestication of animals started before the Bronze Age but the use of bronze tools helped agriculture along.

The Bronze Age lasted over two thousand years in the Middle East. It was followed by the Iron Age, which started around 1200 BC in the Middle East.

Abraham lived around 2000 BC, so Abraham lived during the Bronze Age. Camels were not domesticated at the time of Abraham although other useful animals had been.

Genesis takes no account of these ages, although the evidence that they happened is considerable. In the story of Cain and Abel, Abel is a shepherd and Cain is a farmer. The existence of agriculture and the domestication of many animals is assumed. In Genesis, these complex skills are apparently God-given.

In Genesis, towns and cities don't develop slowly, as needed. Cain founds the first city in Genesis Chapter 4. The forging of bronze and iron takes place in the same Chapter. In Genesis 4, we are already in the Iron Age. Interestingly enough, the first city is founded and bronze and iron are in use before Seth is born. Genesis gives the credit for inventing civilization to the descendants of Cain.

17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
Genesis 4:17 NIV

22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.
Genesis 4:22 NIV

25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”
Genesis 4:25 NIV
 

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I'm not sure people realize in how many ways the creation story in Genesis conflicts with everything we know from every other source. We don't have to go back to the origin of the universe, to the dinosaurs or even to the Neanderthals to show that a literal reading of Genesis is incomplete.

There is massive evidence that for tens of thousands of years, the highest technology used by modern humans was stone. This was the Old Stone Age, or Paleolithic era. People were nomadic, there were no permanent dwellings. They were hunter-gatherers, which is why they had to be nomads. They followed the game animals they lived on. They did use fire. The population of the world was probably never more than about a million people.

In the New Stone Age, or Neolithic era, humans learned to make more sophisticated stone tools such as stone axes and better arrowheads.

At some point, people learned to melt copper and cast it. Some call this the Copper age, although the use of copper did not change things very much. Then tin was discovered. Early peoples did not find tin to be useful in itself, but mixing copper with a small amount of tin produces bronze. When people started making things out of bronze, the Bronze Age began. The use of iron was still in the future.

The Bronze Age meant better weapons and it coincided with ship building and travel across seas. Agriculture and domestication of animals started before the Bronze Age but the use of bronze tools helped agriculture along.

The Bronze Age lasted over two thousand years in the Middle East. It was followed by the Iron Age, which started around 1200 BC in the Middle East.

Abraham lived around 2000 BC, so Abraham lived during the Bronze Age. Camels were not domesticated at the time of Abraham although other useful animals had been.

Genesis takes no account of these ages, although the evidence that they happened is considerable. In the story of Cain and Abel, Abel is a shepherd and Cain is a farmer. The existence of agriculture and the domestication of many animals is assumed. In Genesis, these complex skills are apparently God-given.

In Genesis, towns and cities don't develop slowly, as needed. Cain founds the first city in Genesis Chapter 4. The forging of bronze and iron takes place in the same Chapter. In Genesis 4, we are already in the Iron Age. Interestingly enough, the first city is founded and bronze and iron are in use before Seth is born. Genesis gives the credit for inventing civilization to the descendants of Cain.

17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
Genesis 4:17 NIV

22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.
Genesis 4:22 NIV

25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”
Genesis 4:25 NIV

Yes, I agree. It's not history. It's revelation. What it reveals are hints about God, humanity, and creation. Those hints point to realities that exist, but aren't necessarily discovered such as: Creator, creature, inherent goodness, sin, salvation. And yet, those non-discoverable claims have existential import. Deep calls to deep.
 
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Bumble Bee

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I'm not sure people realize in how many ways the creation story in Genesis conflicts with everything we know from every other source. We don't have to go back to the origin of the universe, to the dinosaurs or even to the Neanderthals to show that a literal reading of Genesis is incomplete.

There is massive evidence that for tens of thousands of years, the highest technology used by modern humans was stone. This was the Old Stone Age, or Paleolithic era. People were nomadic, there were no permanent dwellings. They were hunter-gatherers, which is why they had to be nomads. They followed the game animals they lived on. They did use fire. The population of the world was probably never more than about a million people.

In the New Stone Age, or Neolithic era, humans learned to make more sophisticated stone tools such as stone axes and better arrowheads.

At some point, people learned to melt copper and cast it. Some call this the Copper age, although the use of copper did not change things very much. Then tin was discovered. Early peoples did not find tin to be useful in itself, but mixing copper with a small amount of tin produces bronze. When people started making things out of bronze, the Bronze Age began. The use of iron was still in the future.

The Bronze Age meant better weapons and it coincided with ship building and travel across seas. Agriculture and domestication of animals started before the Bronze Age but the use of bronze tools helped agriculture along.

The Bronze Age lasted over two thousand years in the Middle East. It was followed by the Iron Age, which started around 1200 BC in the Middle East.

Abraham lived around 2000 BC, so Abraham lived during the Bronze Age. Camels were not domesticated at the time of Abraham although other useful animals had been.

Genesis takes no account of these ages, although the evidence that they happened is considerable. In the story of Cain and Abel, Abel is a shepherd and Cain is a farmer. The existence of agriculture and the domestication of many animals is assumed. In Genesis, these complex skills are apparently God-given.

In Genesis, towns and cities don't develop slowly, as needed. Cain founds the first city in Genesis Chapter 4. The forging of bronze and iron takes place in the same Chapter. In Genesis 4, we are already in the Iron Age. Interestingly enough, the first city is founded and bronze and iron are in use before Seth is born. Genesis gives the credit for inventing civilization to the descendants of Cain.

17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
Genesis 4:17 NIV

22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.
Genesis 4:22 NIV

25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”
Genesis 4:25 NIV

these things happened pre flood. Isn’t it possible that some of those skills were lost in the flood?
 
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coffee4u

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these things happened pre flood. Isn’t it possible that some of those skills were lost in the flood?

I think much would have been lost during the flood and again at the Tower of Babel.
Caves were not homes for 'cavemen' but homes for intelligent humans facing a harsh new world. You have no home, but there is a cave, common sense says you would use it. They didn't leave the ark and go to a fancy hotel, everything was gone. Including things like knowing how to forge tools of bronze and iron. Would anyone here know how to do that? I certainly wouldn't.

Then just as mankind thought they had it all together again God came down and confused their languages. People groups speaking the same language would have come together but who says each group had all the skills, doubtful.
I'm also sure this is why different cultures have their own creation and flood stories, they took what they knew and passed it down and like a game of whispers, it got changed and embellished by the tellers.
 
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J_B_

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I'm not sure people realize in how many ways the creation story in Genesis conflicts with everything we know from every other source. We don't have to go back to the origin of the universe, to the dinosaurs or even to the Neanderthals to show that a literal reading of Genesis is incomplete.

There is massive evidence that for tens of thousands of years, the highest technology used by modern humans was stone. This was the Old Stone Age, or Paleolithic era. People were nomadic, there were no permanent dwellings. They were hunter-gatherers, which is why they had to be nomads. They followed the game animals they lived on. They did use fire. The population of the world was probably never more than about a million people.

In the New Stone Age, or Neolithic era, humans learned to make more sophisticated stone tools such as stone axes and better arrowheads.

At some point, people learned to melt copper and cast it. Some call this the Copper age, although the use of copper did not change things very much. Then tin was discovered. Early peoples did not find tin to be useful in itself, but mixing copper with a small amount of tin produces bronze. When people started making things out of bronze, the Bronze Age began. The use of iron was still in the future.

The Bronze Age meant better weapons and it coincided with ship building and travel across seas. Agriculture and domestication of animals started before the Bronze Age but the use of bronze tools helped agriculture along.

The Bronze Age lasted over two thousand years in the Middle East. It was followed by the Iron Age, which started around 1200 BC in the Middle East.

Abraham lived around 2000 BC, so Abraham lived during the Bronze Age. Camels were not domesticated at the time of Abraham although other useful animals had been.

Genesis takes no account of these ages, although the evidence that they happened is considerable. In the story of Cain and Abel, Abel is a shepherd and Cain is a farmer. The existence of agriculture and the domestication of many animals is assumed. In Genesis, these complex skills are apparently God-given.

In Genesis, towns and cities don't develop slowly, as needed. Cain founds the first city in Genesis Chapter 4. The forging of bronze and iron takes place in the same Chapter. In Genesis 4, we are already in the Iron Age. Interestingly enough, the first city is founded and bronze and iron are in use before Seth is born. Genesis gives the credit for inventing civilization to the descendants of Cain.

17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
Genesis 4:17 NIV

22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.
Genesis 4:22 NIV

25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”
Genesis 4:25 NIV

Myths never die. These issues have been answered time and again, yet here we are. If some are of the position that God never communicated with the faithful prior to the Exile or, alternatively, the faithful prior to the Exile were too stupid to accurately record what happened, I'm sure I won't change their mind.

But it really bunches my shorts that people feel it's OK to reinterpret texts. I know the person who wrote this or that text thought it actually happened, but we are so much smarter that we know God only meant it as an allegory. Grrrrrrrr.

Professional historians make many nuanced conclusions that seem to go over people's heads. But it sure seems most should be able to grasp that you can't prove the absence of something. As such, the historian will say, "The first known occurrence of domesticated camels, the use of iron, etc. occurred in year xxxx." That it was the first known occurrence is not a claim that it never happened prior to that. In fact, the historical record is constantly updated with evidence of all types of things occurring earlier than once thought. Second, the historical record is full of embarrassing claims that such and such never happened, only for evidence that in fact it did happen to surface at a later date. And, third, the historical record is full of embarrassing examples of people saying the Bible is terribly inaccurate history because it says this wrong thing or that wrong thing ... only to later believe such a thing happened because a corroborating account is found in secular sources.

But whatever - you were discussing how we have no evidence of what "really" happened to the faithful of God prior to the Exile - only evidence of what "really" happened to the unfaithful. So, carry on.
 
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Dale

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these things happened pre flood. Isn’t it possible that some of those skills were lost in the flood?


One thing I've noticed about the early part of Genesis is that you could leave out the Flood story and wind up at the same place. Before the story of Noah, society is drifting away from God because the Sons of God are getting into foolish marriages and failing to teach their children about God. After the Flood, we have the Tower of Babel, more human arrogance and foolishness.

Someone told me on Christian Forums that God destroyed the earth in the Flood to get rid of the Nephilim. Yet the same person told me that there are still Nephilim after the Flood. By this thinking, Goliath had Nephilim ancestry, and so did other giants mentioned in the OT. So God destroys the world to get rid of the Nephilim and then clumsily allows more Nephilim to be born?

The story of Noah's flood is a parable. It is a parable about the kind of obedience that God wants. Noah and his family stay on the right path while the entire world is going the wrong way. That's the kind of obedience that God wants. God wants us to care about what is morally right a lot more than we care what other people think. That is what this story is about.

It is perfectly obvious to me that the reason that the reason the Ark lands on Mount Ararat, or the Ararat range, is that when this story was composed, the Israelites thought that Mount Ararat was the largest and tallest mountain in the world. If they had known about Mount Everest, the Ark would have landed there. The idea is that when the Flood waters recede, the peak of the tallest mountain would be the first to be exposed.

The Flood story should not be taken literally.
 
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Dale

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these things happened pre flood. Isn’t it possible that some of those skills were lost in the flood?


You mention the possibility that skills are lost when most of humanity dies in the Flood. Genesis never presents any realistic timeline for skills like making bronze or iron to develop. No one accidentally drops a rock in a fire and sees a metal ooze out or anything like that. It is simply assumed that skills like locating ores, identifying them, and making them into useful implements are there from the beginning.

The creationists who claim that the earth is only 6,000 years old say that there is only 400 years between the Flood and Abraham, or even less. I pointed this out in a previous thread. Biblehistory.com says there are only 352 years from the Flood to the time of Abraham. This is absurd, the world's population would only be a fraction of what it would have to be at the time of Abraham. It also leaves no time for a stone age, no time for the bronze age to come about.


My previous thread:
Was the Great Pyramid Built Before Noah's Flood?

Another link:
https://www.bible-history.com/timeline/timeline_2200_2100_bc.html
 
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Dale

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Some cultures were still in a nomadic, stone age late in the 18th century. No reason for the Bible to point it out.


That would be a good point except that creationists believe that the Bible is perfectly accurate as a history book. They will not admit that the Bible is not intended to be a textbook of science, geography, history or archaeology.

Besides, nobody expects the Bible to provide a detailed history of times after it was written. Nobody expects the Bible to tell us about he 18th century.
 
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KenJackson

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The Flood story should not be taken literally.
Then how do you explain the fossils that cover the earth? Surely you don't believe the evolution myth? And how do you explain the continent-scale sandstone layers that cover much of the earth? And vertical petrified trees with no roots that extend through supposedly millions of years of layers?
Someone told me on Christian Forums that God destroyed the earth in the Flood to get rid of the Nephilim.
No, God told us why in Genesis 6:5-7 :
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
 
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Dale

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Then how do you explain the fossils that cover the earth? Surely you don't believe the evolution myth? And how do you explain the continent-scale sandstone layers that cover much of the earth? And vertical petrified trees with no roots that extend through supposedly millions of years of layers?

No, God told us why in Genesis 6:5-7 :


Fossils are a problem for creationists. They aren't a problem for anyone else.

You mention sandstone, so try this. Navajo Sandstone spreads through Arizona, Colorado, Nevada and Utah. Overall, Navajo Sandstone covers about 102,300 square miles.

How did Navajo Sandstone form? From "windblown sand dunes," some "over 2,000 feet thick."

"The Navajo Sandstone is the result of the largest known sand desert in the history of our planet, which covered the area of today's Colorado Plateau and beyond."

"Groundwater containing dissolved minerals –particularly calcium carbonate –percolated through and around the sand grains below the water table, leaving behind calcium carbonate that glued the grains together—turning sand dunes into the Navajo Sandstone."

This particular form of sandstone formed in a huge, ancient desert with some help from ground water. (Not surface water.)

Links: Note: NPS is the National Park Service.

Wikizero - Navajo Sandstone
Navajo Sandstone - Zion National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
Sand Dunes to Sandstone - Zion National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
 
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KenJackson

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Fossils are a problem for creationists. They aren't a problem for anyone else.
Who is anyone else? Do you mean they're not a problem for people who have faith in evolution? Yes they are. Careful thinking about the information captured as fossils should cause everyone great doubt about evolution.

Unfortunately, fossils don't capture the molecular machinery that must have evolved into existence slowly if evolution is true. But how would a machine evolve slowly? Would one component protein evolve at a time, and be conserved even though useless until the others evolved to complete the machine? Wouldn't that be a violation of how natural selection works? But I digress.

Fossils show complete, functioning, well-designed animals, not animals in the progress of evolving. They look like a snapshot of what existed about 5000 years ago, when the sudden upheavals of the worldwide flood captured them in a heartbeat, often with necks arched back struggling to breathe.

Fossils show marine animals all over the earth, even on the tallest mountains (which weren't tall mountains at the time). And most clams are captured in the closed position, meaning they were alive when they were suddenly buried.

But the biggest problem about the evolution myth is the hypothetical process of evolution itself. Many people defend it by pointing to a modern day example of mutations breaking genes resulting in change. No one disagrees that mutations do damage that causes enough change to create new species, and even new genera. But no such damage ever created a new protein, a new molecular machine, a new membrane, a new organ or a new system. Those things had to be designed, not evolved.
 
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Dale

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Fossils are no problem for us, fossils were made mostly during the flood.


You say that fossils came out of the Flood. I hardly know where to begin with such a sweeping statement. There are different categories of fossils. There are tar pit fossils, for instance.

"Over a million fossils have been found in tar pits around the globe."

Amber fossils are another category. I haven't seen a figure on how many animals and plants have been preserved in amber but you can buy them on eBay. They seem to be common.

Link
Tar pit - Wikipedia
 
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Then how do you explain the fossils that cover the earth? Surely you don't believe the evolution myth? And how do you explain the continent-scale sandstone layers that cover much of the earth? And vertical petrified trees with no roots that extend through supposedly millions of years of layers?

No, God told us why in Genesis 6:5-7 :

Fossils can be found all around the world because animals have lived all around the world.

And, it's also important to distinguish between terrestrial strata versus marine strata. In marine strata we might find clams, squids, corals, fish, even fish feeding traces or fish corpolites etc. (but not terrestrial fossils like foot prints or nests with eggs) etc. In terrestrial strata we might find things that walked on land like reptiles, or land mammals, foot tracks, mud cracks, rain drop traces where rain hits soft mud etc. likewise we don't find marine animals in these. You won't find a shark in a bed with foot tracks for example.

In lacustrine strata we might find small fish or insects, birds etc. (But not large marine animals like sharks or plesiosaurs because these are too large for many lakes).

In ancient stream beds we might find amphibians or small fish, but we don't find deep marine life in ancient river bed strata.

So fossils cover the earth because that's where they lived. And not all fossils are found everywhere, rather they're typically found in strata that reflects their habitat. Although in some instances you can find cases where fossils of land animals might die and their bones might get buried in a lake they lived near or animals getting stuck in tar pits etc.

And there is no sandstone layer that covers the earth. There are sandstone layers of different lithologies and of varying depths in places around earth. But there is no single layer that just blankets the planet. There really is no such thing as a continent-scale layer of sandstone either.

The reason there are sandstone layers, is due to the formation of transgressive and regressive sequences.


And polystrate fossils do not cross-cut strata of millions of years. You will never find a polystrate fossil that does such a thing. Are there fossils that cross cut multiple layers. Yes. Do those layers span millions of years? No.


And Dale's response is correct too, some sandstones are aeolian, or formed by wind, particularly some of those fancy ones you see in the western US. But most predominantly I'd say are going to fall in the trans and regressive sequence realm.
 
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coffee4u

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You say that fossils came out of the Flood. I hardly know where to begin with such a sweeping statement. There are different categories of fossils. There are tar pit fossils, for instance.

"Over a million fossils have been found in tar pits around the globe."

Animals died in tar pits, so?
the La Brea pits have over three million fossils, representing more than 565 different species as well as hundreds of human artefacts.
Animals didn't just wander in and die and become fossils, fossilization requires rapid burial. There are mountains of crushed bone fragments flung every which way. sounds like a big catastrophe, wonder what that could be, perhaps a huge flood.
Lessons from the La Brea Tar Pits

Amber fossils are another category. I haven't seen a figure on how many animals and plants have been preserved in amber but you can buy them on eBay. They seem to be common.

Link
Tar pit - Wikipedia

And animals were also preserved in Amber, am I supposed to be concerned by that fact?
Amber needs lots of, guess what? Water.
Did you know a lot of aquatic organisms can be found in amber?
Lace bugs (Tingidae) still alive today look just the same as those found in Caribbean amber dated as being millions of years old. That's because they are not millions of years old and evolution didn't happen.

I have no issue with fossils, I only have issues with the assumptions people place upon them.
 
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Fossils can be found all around the world because animals have lived all around the world.
You don't seem to have even attempted to make the case that fossils imply evolution. Or do you just assume it? There are fossils, therefore they evolved?

Fossils are much better explained by the flood than by evolution. Why would there be so many fossils if there were no flood? Fossils don't normally form. But the real problem with evolution is in the details of biology.

Life is made up of complex, hierarchical, interdependent systems. Do you know what hierarchical means? It means your heart has no value by itself. It requires blood to pump. It requires your body to be laced with veins, arteries and capillaries to pump blood through. To be useful, it requires lungs, liver and kidneys to scrub the bad and add the good for distribution.

Each of these complex organs has no value by themselves. And they are each constructed of many complex components that have no value by themselves. The complexity by itself is not the issue. But it presents a big problem to natural selection. A change must have an advantage or benefit to be conserved. But the components of any complex mechanism would have to have lots and lots and lots of changes conserved over a long period before there was any benefit at all.

Errors (mutations) don't accumulate to form complex, hierarchical, interdependent systems. Life was clearly designed.
 
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