Saved by faith alone

Bible Highlighter said:

That was the early church. Do we still go around in the same clothes as they did? Do we still travel with staffs? Again, as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man. You either that, or you don't. The choice is yours.

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Are you and your 3-man work church going to build and ark and start collecting animals?

Side Note

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Oh, and speaking about what the Bible actually says: I also do not see anything in the Bible about praying to the saints, confessing sins to a priest, and bowing and kissing statues, and or uplifting one believer as an infallible pope.

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Read it again.

Have a nice day.

Swag365 said:

Are you and your 3-man work church going to build and ark and start collecting animals?

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I was quoting Scripture.

“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Matthew 24:37).

You said:

Read it again.

Have a nice day.

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If these traditions are clearly not talked about in the early church then they do not exist. I am not hunting to find a verse that sort of could be read as the RCC traditions when it doesn't read that way at all. Such things should clearly be spelled out clearly in Scripture because they conflict with other teachings in Scripture. It's the same with Faith Alone. While somebody can obviously twist Scripture to read it that way, we both know that Scripture has to be read as a whole and it talks about how we are also saved by the Sanctification Process (after having been saved by God's grace). Those who preach against the Sanctification Process double talk because they say you need Sanctification, too. Well, their version of Sanctifiation is not the one described in the Bible. For they seek to turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level because they don't believe salvation can be lost if one sins and does not confess of it to the Lord Jesus Christ. Many of them will say that a believer generally lives a holy life, but if a believer happens to die in one or two unconfessed sins of lying, or lusting, they are still saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. Therefore, sin is not treated as a danger for what it is. One can think they could sin and still be saved because they believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder.

Bible Highlighter said:

I am not hunting to find a verse that sort of could be read the RCC traditions that and yet it doesn't read that way at all. Such things should clearly be spelled out clearly in Scripture because they conflict with other teachings in Scripture. It's the same with Faith Alone. While somebody can obviously twist Scripture to read it that way, we both know that Scripture has to be read as a whole and it talks about how we are also saved by the Sanctification Process (after having been saved by God's grace).

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More "type 2 works salvation." From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works, regardless of whether you are still a babe in Christ or mature in Christ. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification (sinless perfection) in this life (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Salvation is through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Believers understand this. Unbelievers refuse to accept it.

Those who preach against the Sanctification Process double talk because they say you need Sanctification, too. Well, their version of Sanctifiation is not the one described in the Bible. For they seek to turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level because they don't believe salvation can be lost if one sins and does not confess of it to the Lord Jesus Christ.

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After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).


#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).


#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).


#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).


#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Bible Highlighter said:

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

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You continuously misinterpret Scripture in your efforts to promote (performance based) "type 2 works salvation" and there is a reason for that.

Eternal Security folk or Belief Alone Proponents may try to change or reinterpret these verses above in post #644 to fit their belief, but I just read these verses plainly and believe them. Anyone who is honest in reading what a text says will simply believe these verses and they will not speak against them in order to make a more comforting belief true.

Bible Highlighter said:

Eternal Security folk or Belief Alone Proponents may try to change or reinterpret these verses above to fit their belief, but I just read these verses plainly and believe them. Anyone who is honest in reading what a text says will simply believe these verses and they will not speak against them in order to make a more comforting belief true.

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Eternal IN-securists folk and works-salvationists read these verses above out of context and fail to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine and end up trying to force these verses to "conform" to their biased church doctrine. For such people, their message is not seasoned with grace, but only fear and bondage to IN-security and works righteousness.

Bible Highlighter said:

I was quoting Scripture.

“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Matthew 24:37).

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Yes, I know.

If these traditions are clearly not talked about in the early church then they do not exist. I am not hunting to find a verse that sort of could be read as the RCC traditions when it doesn't read that way at all. Such things should clearly be spelled out clearly in Scripture because they conflict with other teachings in Scripture. It's the same with Faith Alone. While somebody can obviously twist Scripture to read it that way, we both know that Scripture has to be read as a whole and it talks about how we are also saved by the Sanctification Process (after having been saved by God's grace). Those who preach against the Sanctification Process double talk because they say you need Sanctification, too. Well, their version of Sanctifiation is not the one described in the Bible. For they seek to turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level because they don't believe salvation can be lost if one sins and does not confess of it to the Lord Jesus Christ. Many of them will say that a believer generally lives a holy life, but if a believer happens to die in one or two unconfessed sins of lying, or lusting, they are still saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. Therefore, sin is not treated as a danger for what it is. One can think they could sin and still be saved because they believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder.

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Have a nice day.

Danthemailman said:

Salvation is through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

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"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

I'll stick with the Bible on that one.

Swag365 said:

Yes, I know.

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If so, then how do you see this verse as being fulfilled in the last days?

You said:

Have a nice day.

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You, as well.

Swag365 said:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

I'll stick with the Bible on that one.

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I'll stick with the Bible on that one as well ACCORDING TO THE CONTEXT and after PROPERLY HARMONIZING SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was said to be "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. CONTEXT - James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is shown to be authentic, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Swag365 said:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

I'll stick with the Bible on that one.

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On this verse we agree. We just disagree on what works are required. I believe the only works we are to do are the only ones specifically mentioned in the Bible.

To all:

The Bible appears to teach at first glance “Belief Alone-ism” in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5. But what these verses are saying is that we are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and not by “Works Alone” without God's grace. Many other places in the Bible clearly teach we need to obey as a part of salvation (after we are saved by God's grace).

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).
    

Danthemailman said:

I'll stick with the Bible on that one as well ACCORDING TO THE CONTEXT and after PROPERLY HARMONIZING SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was said to be "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. CONTEXT - James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is shown to be authentic, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

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Oh that's right. "Justification" does not mean "justification" although the very first question that James asks is "Can faith save him?"

It takes a whole lot of cutting, pasting, and jumping through hoops, to make the Bible falsely teach exactly the opposite of what it states:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

I'll stick with the Bible.

Have a nice day.

To all:

Many in the Belief Alone camp teach that you will automatically be changed to live holy (even though they really don't believe that because they believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder). But the Bible doesn't teach that we will automatically be changed to live that holy life against our own free will.

We are told:



We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So things are not as they say. My encouragement for all is to read and believe your Bible plainly and do not listen to a more comforting message that you would prefer to hear (or that you want to be true).

Swag365 said:

Oh that's right. "Justification" does not mean "justification" although the very first question that James asks is "Can faith save him"?

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In the first place, James asked the question in James 2:14, "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" What kind of faith is that? *Empty profession of faith/dead faith. Secondly, the term "justified" (depending on the context) can have different meanings, as I already shared with you.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You are ignoring the context in an effort to accommodate your biased church doctrine. I gave you three examples in Scripture (Matthew 11:19; 12:37; Luke 7:29) in which the term "justified" is used to mean "shown to be righteous" instead of accounted as righteous. It's the same in (James 2:21,24) unless you are into contradictions in Scripture. (Romans 4:2-3)

It takes a whole lot of cutting, pasting, and jumping through hoops, to make the Bible teach exactly the opposite of what it states:

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It takes reading that verse in CONTEXT and properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

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"Faith only" here IN CONTEXT is in reference to an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith, (James 2:14) which is not to be confused with faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. Saved through faith, not works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) What part of says/claims to have faith in James 2:14 did you not understand?

I'll stick with the Bible.

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You mean you will stick with your biased interpretation of James 2:24 in order to accommodate your biased church doctrine.

Have a nice day.

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You as well. I'm definitely having a nice day! It's my 3 day weekend!

Danthemailman said:

In the first place, James asked the question in James 2:14, "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" What kind of faith is that? *Empty profession of faith/dead faith. Secondly, the term "justified" (depending on the context) can have different meanings, as I already shared with you.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You are ignoring the context in an effort to accommodate your biased church doctrine. I gave you three examples in Scripture (Matthew 11:19; 12:37; Luke 7:29) in which the term "justified" is used to mean "shown to be righteous" instead of accounted as righteous. It's the same in (James 2:21,24) unless you are into contradictions in Scripture. (Romans 4:2-3)

It takes reading that verse in CONTEXT and properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

"Faith only" here IN CONTEXT is in reference to an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith, (James 2:14) which is not to be confused with faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. Saved through faith, not works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) What part of says/claims to have faith in James 2:14 did you not understand?

You mean you will stick with your biased interpretation of James 2:24 in order to accommodate your biased church doctrine.

You as well. I'm definitely having a nice day! It's my 3 day weekend!

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That's all well and good. I'm not going back and forth with you endlessly on the proper interpretation of the text. That interpretation of Scripture has been refuted on this forum a thousand times and elsewhere.

The undisputed facts are that the Bible does not state anywhere that salvation is by "faith only." The most important doctrine in all of Protestantism, not taught anywhere in the Bible, even one single time!

And the Bible clearly states that justification is "not by faith only." But "justification" means "vindicate before men" although it was God who tested Abraham on the mountain. The alleged "context" makes no sense whatsoever. Abraham was not trying to vindicate himself before men by going up to the mountain to offer his son as a sacrifice. Nor was Rahab trying to vindicate herself before men. How about you? Are you trying to vindicate yourself before men? Is that a major concern of yours when it comes to your salvation? Whether or not men think you are saved? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Did the Holy Spirit somehow forget the word "alone"? Was the word "alone" missing from St. Paul's dictionary? I suppose it was too much work for St. Paul to have added the word "alone" after "faith."

So "faith" in the text means "dead faith"? If that is the case then the text should read as follows:

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also dead faith apart from works is dead."

"Dead faith apart from works is dead"? That's like saying "A dead man is dead". Duh. Your interpretation makes the text of the chapter nonsensical.

The text means exactly what it states. You don't like that so you have to come up with all kinds of fanciful interpretations and contortions to make it teach exactly the opposite of what it states.

Have a nice day.

Swag365 said:

That's all well and good. I'm not going back and forth with you endlessly on the proper interpretation of the text. That interpretation of Scripture has been refuted on this forum a thousand times and elsewhere

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In other words, you are very satisfied with what you already believe and don't want to be confused with the facts.

The undisputed facts are that the Bible does not state anywhere that salvation is by "faith only." The most important doctrine in all of Protestantism, not taught anywhere in the Bible, even one single time!

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Again, "faith only" in James 2:24 is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14-17) and not authentic faith, so your argument is moot.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of Scripture that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" or "only" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of Scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

And the Bible clearly states that justification is "not by faith only."

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CONTEXT. Not by an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's dead. Again, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3). Now carefully and prayerfully meditate on these Scriptures and allow some time for the Holy Spirit to convict your heart and for the truth to sink in.

But "justification" means "vindicate before men" although it was God who tested Abraham on the mountain. The alleged "context" makes no sense whatsoever. Abraham was not trying to vindicate himself before men by going up to the mountain to offer his son as a sacrifice. Nor was Rahab trying to vindicate herself before men. How about you? Are you trying to vindicate yourself before men? Is that a major concern of yours when it comes to your salvation? Whether or not men think you are saved? It makes no sense whatsoever.

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So you are now admitting that the term "justified" can also mean shown to be righteous? as it does in James 2:21,24.

*In James 2:21, notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Did the Holy Spirit somehow forget the word "alone"? Was the word "alone" missing from St. Paul's dictionary? I suppose it was too much work for St. Paul to have added the word "alone" after "faith."

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Once again, you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in multiple passages of scripture that clearly teach we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modification." The words "belief/faith" clearly stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation in those multiple passages of Scripture. Do those multiple passages of Scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

So "faith" in the text means "dead faith"? If that is the case then the text should read as follows:

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"SAYS/CLAIMS" to have faith, but has no works (James 2:14) is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. It amazes how you just can't see that.

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also dead faith apart from works is dead."

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The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

"Dead faith apart from works is dead"? That's like saying "A dead man is dead". Duh. Your interpretation makes the text of the chapter nonsensical.

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You just don't get it and the source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10). An empty profession of faith that claims to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's dead is what James is talking about in James 2:14. James did not say what good it is if someone "actually has authentic faith," but just has not "yet" produced works as if we are saved by faith AND works, yet that's how works-salvationists end up (mis)interpreting James 2:14-24.

The text means exactly what it states. You don't like that so you have to come up with all kinds of fanciful interpretations and contortions to make it teach exactly the opposite of what it states.

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The text means exactly what it states when properly read in CONTEXT, yet you refuse to take the time and read it in CONTEXT in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine, because the truth (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) does not harmonize with your biased church doctrine of salvation by faith AND WORKS.

Danthemailman said:

In other words, you are very satisfied with what you already believe and don't want to be confused with the facts.

Again, "faith only" in James 2:24 is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14-17) and not authentic faith, so your argument is moot.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of Scripture that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" or "only" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of Scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

CONTEXT. Not by an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's dead. Again, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3). Now carefully and prayerfully meditate on these Scriptures and allow some time for the Holy Spirit to convict your heart and for the truth to sink in.

So you are now admitting that the term "justified" can also mean shown to be righteous? as it does in James 2:21,24.

*In James 2:21, notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Once again, you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in multiple passages of scripture that clearly teach we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modification." The words "belief/faith" clearly stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation in those multiple passages of Scripture. Do those multiple passages of Scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

"SAYS/CLAIMS" to have faith, but has no works (James 2:14) is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. It amazes how you just can't see that.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

You just don't get it and the source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10). An empty profession of faith that claims to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's dead is what James is talking about in James 2:14. James did not say what good it is if someone "actually has authentic faith," but just has not "yet" produced works as if we are saved by faith AND works, yet that's how works-salvationists end up (mis)interpreting James 2:14-24.

The text means exactly what it states when properly read in CONTEXT, yet you refuse to take the time and read it in CONTEXT in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine, because the truth (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) does not harmonize with your biased church doctrine of salvation by faith AND WORKS.

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First, the Catholic Church does not teach "salvation by faith and works." That can mean many different things depending on who says it. I have not said that, and you will not find that language anywhere in an official document promulgated by the Catholic Church.

Secondly, your interpretations and contortions of Scripture are not "the facts". The facts are that (1) the bible nowhere states that salvation is by "faith alone"; and (2) the Bible explicitly states that "justification is not by faith only".

Third, I already refuted you with Romans 11 previously in this thread, and you did not respond to my last comment with respect to that chapter. Were you "very satisfied" with that? As for the rest of your arguments with respect to James, I'll go through them later and show where they err. But I will not debate you until the end of time.

Have a nice day.

Swag365 said:

First, the Catholic Church does not teach "salvation by faith and works." That can mean many different things depending on who says it. I have not said that, and you will not find that language anywhere in an official document promulgated by the Catholic Church.

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Hmm.. I was just recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic on a different Christian forum site and he had this to say, and I quote: We are saved by faith and obedience of faith. Faith = Belief/Trust + Works/Obedience. In what universe does that not equate to salvation by faith AND WORKS? He actually corrected me when I said the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works (as if I was implying the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works apart from any kind of faith whatsoever) then he clearly stated that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS and it's no secret that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

Secondly, your interpretations and contortions of Scripture are not "the facts".

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Reading Scripture IN CONTEXT and properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine hardly qualifies as contortions of Scripture. I'll stick with the facts.

The facts are that (1) the bible nowhere states that salvation is by "faith alone"; and (2) the Bible explicitly states that "justification is not by faith only".

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The facts are is that you don't need to "add" the word "alone" next to multiple passages of Scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith STAND ALONE" in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Also, "faith only" in James 2:24 is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. So man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and is justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21,24) *Perfect Harmony*

Third, I already refuted you with Romans 11 previously in this thread, and you did not respond to my last comment with respect to that chapter.

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You refuted nothing. You simply gave me your biased opinion based on your preconceived beliefs and your argument is inconclusive. Again, the Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). You only seem to focus on verses 20-23 and ignore the context. Verse 25 - For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved..

We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God. Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off."

Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).

Were you "very satisfied" with that?

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I'm very satisfied with the truth after reading Romans 11 in context.

As for the rest of your arguments with respect to James, I'll go through them later and show where they err. But I will not debate you until the end of time.

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This should be interesting. You need to remember that prior to my conversion, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

Have a nice day!