Sacrifices in the Kingdom to Come

GedaliahMaegil said:

When you call His Torah something impossible, when He Himself declares that it is?

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Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law no one will be justified.

We are justified by His works .... not ours. We have faith in Him.

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Habakkuk 2:4
Look at the proud one; His soul is not upright--But the righteous will live by his faith--

Galatians 3:24
So the Law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Jesus is the embodiment of the law ... He is God. Through Him we are being conformed to His image ... His lawful and loving image by the work of the Holy Spirit ... and we are to respond to His work.

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

He is God, and His blood sacrifice is of infinite worth. His hours of agony began in the garden the night before the crucifixion, and culminated in His death on the cross, when God the Father turned His back on God the Son as the Son bore our sins. His sacrifice for us as our substitute was the equivalent of all who would ever believe in Him (or who ever had believed in His promised coming ) suffering eternal punishment. He endured all that in our place. The Christ of the Cross is our Satisfaction (of the Law’s demands). The law of God demands perfect obedience to the law--Christ is the only One who ever lived who fulfilled that demand. The law demands just punishment for those who sin--He fulfilled that demand as well. The law has been upheld--it is satisfied.

Without Him we can do nothing.

John 15

5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.

He embodies the law ... We are in Him .... the law remains forever ... because He is forever.

HARK! said:

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

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so ... you are perfect and never sin?

HARK! said:

You seem to have missed the fact that Job "became blameless."

(CLV) Jb 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz. Job was his name. This man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and keeping away from evil.

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

I haven't found any discussion if Messiah in the book of Job. Can you point it out where Messiah made Job capable of obedience to YHWH?

You seem to have skipped over this one:

(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

I suppose that there were probably others. This seems to be a side note.

Here's another, although Paul doesn't say that he's blameless. He just says that he didn't sin.

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

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HARK! said:

You seem to have missed the fact that Job "became blameless."

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Job 1:1 includes the statement that Job was “blameless and upright.” This cannot mean that Job was sinless (Romans 3:23), so what does it mean?

The Hebrew word translated “blameless” is tam and can be translated as “blameless,” “perfect,” or “upright.” The same word is used in Proverbs 29:10, which states, “The bloodthirsty hate a person of integrity / and seek to kill the upright.” A blameless person is someone whose life exhibits integrity.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

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He was at this time being falsely accused .... he was defending against the false accusations being made of Him at the time .... He was not claiming he was without sin ... He did not commit sin (of the false charges) that were being made against him at the time.

While he answered for himself,.... As he was allowed by the Roman laws to do, he pleaded his own cause, and showed the falsehood of the charges exhibited against him; by observing, that as the crimes alleged against him were reducible to three heads, neither of them were just and true:

neither against the law of the Jews; the law of Moses, whether moral, ceremonial, or judicial; not the moral law, that he was a strict observer of, both before and since his conversion; nor the ceremonial law, for though it was abolished, and he knew it was, yet for peace sake, and in condescension to the weakness of some, and in order to gain others, he submitted to it, and was performing a branch of it, when he was seized in the temple; nor the judicial law, which concerned the Jews as Jews, and their civil affairs: neither against the temple; at Jerusalem, the profanation of which he was charged with, by bringing a Gentile into it; which was a falsehood.

His statement was in relation to what he was being accused of at the time ... within that context he had committed no sin.

In short ... if ALL have fallen short .... then ALL have.

Romans 3:9,19
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; …

Go read Romans 3 in it's entirety.

HARK! said:

You're misquoting the very verse that you posted to support this assertion.

What is the difference between "works," and "works of the law?"

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Jesus performs the works ... our works are filthy rags.

Salvation is all of grace and not of works, and its fruit is obedience to the Commandments.

Through the agency of the Holy Spirit the law points out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, and its fruit is obedience to the Commandments.

This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow human beings. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Deut. 28:1-14; Ps. 19:7-14; 40:7, 8; Matt. 5:17-20; 22:36-40; John 14:15; 15:7-10; Rom. 8:3, 4; Eph. 2:8-10; Heb. 8:8-10; 1 John 2:3; 5:3; Rev. 12:17; 14:12.)

Jesus called for people to believe in Him. Thus whenever anyone believes in Him, he is obeying Him. Saving faith is an act of obedience.

It is biblically correct to speak of faith as an act of obedience. After all, God commands us to believe the Gospel (e.g., Acts 16:31).

Support for this view is seen in many passages. Acts 6:7 says that “many of the priests were obedient to the faith.” Romans 10:16 and 2 Thess 1:8 speak of obeying or disobeying the Gospel. See also, John 3:36; 6:28-29; 1 Pet 1:2, 22; 2:7-8; and Acts 5:32.

HARK! said:

Well there you go. If we believe what YHWH says; we will listen to what YHWH says.

This includes honoring his Moedim.

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By means of animal blood upon the High Holy yoms a son is dishonoring The covenant of peace offered by Yeshua.

Hebrews 10:29

eleos1954 said:

I am not one who puts forth the law ended ... no ... no ... no .. the law is perfect ... the law stands ... he made full the law .... actually magnified/exalted the law. He (fulfilled - fulled full) the law perfectly. You jumped to a conclusion ;o)

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And everlasting.

HARK! said:

23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. 24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" 25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God),

This passage pertains to YHWH's righteousness, as in his patience, he passes over former sins, for those who come to faith.When the judge shows grace for a misstep; it's not a free pass to continue in lawlessness.


(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

Here are some more quotes from Paul with perspective:

Philippians 1:9-11

Complete Jewish Bible

9 And this is my prayer: that your love may more and more overflow in fullness of knowledge and depth of discernment, 10 so that you will be able to determine what is best and thus be pure and without blame for the Day of the Messiah,

What does without blame mean? What would we be blamed form but sin?

11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Yeshua the Messiah — to the glory and praise of God.

What is the fruit of righteousness, but works of righteousness?

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

Philippians 3:6

Complete Jewish Bible

• 6 in regard to zeal, a persecutor of the Messianic Community,
• in regard to the righteousness demanded by legalism, blameless.

What does it mean in the Greek when Paul speak of his righteousness demanded by legalism, blameless.

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free from guilt .... we are free from guilt because of the blood of Jesus.

Job

Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:3-6.

Repentance is not necessary unless one sins.

According to the tradition in which Job had been reared, the righteous were not supposed to suffer. Job believed that God would deliver the righteous from all evil in this present life. And when Job met suffering, he was thrown into confusion, and this is where we see Job’s sin come to question.

He had stated that he had lived righteously before God and was undeserving of God’s punishment, as if God was unjust in His treatment of him.

Job should not have questioned God’s goodness, justice and wisdom. This self-realization led him to deep remorse and repentance from his mistaken attitude toward God. Questioning God was Job’s sin that he repented of.

Does this mean that the law is abolished? Of course not,

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and I did not or am not claiming this. His law is perfect.

11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Yeshua the Messiah — to the glory and praise of God.

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this is the point Paul is making .... it's not OUR righteousness .... it is the righteousness of Jesus and NOTHING of ourselves.

Any "good" any righteousness found in us is from HIM and not us.

Philippians 1

6being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

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not that we won't sin at all .... rather ... that we will not continuously sin.

“True” believers will not sin as a pattern of life. They will not be dominated by sin. They will be characterized by holiness and obedience. Sins for the “genuine” believer are more so occasional aberrations. But we are not sinless. We will be presented that way on our day of judgement .... as we will be found not guilty being covered by the blood of Christ ... who IS sinless.

Not sure ... seems you are thinking I am dismissing the law ... NO ... the law is holy and good ... without it we would not know what sin is.

HIS righteousness ... not ours. HIS righteousness is imputed ...

The Bible clearly defines righteousness as something His people should pursue (2 Tim 2:22), yet we are unable to produce it. So where do we get it? Our righteousness is imputed from Jesus through the atoning work that He accomplished on the cross (Philippians 1:11) We couldn’t produce it, Christ produced it for us.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

I ask you again ... of which you do not answer .... Do you sin? Another question ... while living on this earth will you ever be completely sinless?

HARK! said:

Not according to Yahshua:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.




Then why did Paul teach his disciples to keep Passover?




If they were just, and blameless in ALL the precepts and statutes; then they were blameless in ALL the precepts and statutes.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.




I've done that. You can read my study on that chapter here:

Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3

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HARK! said:

Not according to Yahshua:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.




Then why did Paul teach his disciples to keep Passover?




If they were just, and blameless in ALL the precepts and statutes; then they were blameless in ALL the precepts and statutes.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.




I've done that. You can read my study on that chapter here:

Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3

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I am not claiming the law was done away with ... the law is in Christ ... He embodies it.

Paul spoke of Jesus in this way: “For Christ is the end [telos] of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4). Telos, which means “end” or “purpose,” speaks to the fulfillment of the goal to which a thing is related. For Paul, the Torah is fulfilled in Jesus because he is the embodiment of the law.

John addressed this same truth when he referred to Jesus as “the Word” who “became flesh” (John 1:14). Jesus embodied the ways of God—following them and then teaching them to others. For John, as the Word of God in himself, Jesus perfectly fulfilled the Torah.

Then why did Paul teach his disciples to keep Passover?

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According to the context of 1 Corinthians 5, Paul says nothing about the feast of Passover which was to be kept on the 14th day of the month of Nisan (the first month on the Jewish calendar). He does not make reference to a day as Passover, as the Old Testament did. (see Ex 12:6,14,18,19; Numbers 9:2; 28:16; Deuteronomy 16:1; Joshua 5:10; Ezekiel 45:21)

Leviticus 23:5 says, In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S Passover.

Paul does not refer to Passover as a time on the calendar, or a ceremonial festival when speaking to the Corinthians. On the contrary, Paul refers to Christ Jesus himself as our Passover.

Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. ~ 1 Corinthians 5:7-8

The law will never pass away because it is embodied in Jesus.

We can go back and forth on this ... the point is .... Jesus accomplished everything on our behalf ... and through Him and ONLY through Him is anything accomplished in us ... Glory and honor to Him and Him alone. We receive Him and all that He is by faith ... He comes into our lives and begins His work of transforming us into His image (over our earthly life-time) ... and HE will indeed finish His work in us until we pass from this earth ... natural death .... or when He returns. (1st resurrection)

If one is blameless are they without sin? Those in His word who were blameless ... were they without sin? Do you sin?

eleos1954 said:

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law no one will be justified.

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Habakkuk 2:4
Look at the proud one; His soul is not upright--But the righteous will live by his faith--

Galatians 3:24
So the Law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Jesus is the embodiment of the law ... He is God. Through Him we are being conformed to His image ... His lawful and loving image by the work of the Holy Spirit ... and we are to respond to His work.

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

John 15

5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.

He embodies the law ... We are in Him .... the law remains forever ... because He is forever.

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Lovely bits of Scripture, but they do nothing to say that Torah is impossible to guard and do. I find your commentary to be antinomian and un-Scriptural and ignorant of the first two-thirds of the Word.

Like many, you make the same error, in saying that Messianic believers seek justification by the Torah of HaShem, rather seeking obedience of His Torah, as those who have been justified in Yeshua. It is a heinous and false accusation, brought out of centuries of antisemitic thought, which sought to remove anything Hebraic from the faith. And, frankly, I have been long tired of it.

Perhaps another section of the forums would profit your talking points better.