Timtofly

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In other words when the 1000 years here is over and His Kingdom comes, those still living will be judged but not die first upon transition into the new Kingdom?

The Second Coming starts the next 1000 years. Christ will reign on earth in His kingdom. As pointed out, John does not write about the church after Revelation 7. We do not "see" the church until the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. We cannot know, because no one wrote about the church during the last millenium of earth. The OT prophecies are about a restored earthly kingdom for Jacob and David. The spiritual church body for the last 1990 years does not fulfill any of those prophecies. The church was spiritual. There has never been a restored physical Israel yet. 1948 was a start, but very far from being the prophecied reality. Herod's temple upgrade or the 400 silent years do not count.

The future is not for the dead past. It is for those currently alive right now. Some dead will be raised on the first day of the Millennium. All the rest of the dead will not be raised until the GWT. Some claim the dead in Christ are literally dead. Nope, they are alive in Christ in Paradise. They have a new body in Christ, but that is a debate on what the body, soul, and spirit are.
 
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Timtofly

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Why should I believe that you have heard anything from God? Why should I trust you over the Bible? Why should I trust you over two thousand years of Christian teaching?

I get it, it probably feels good to think that one is very special and that they have some unique message from God or something. But I've been on the internet long enough to no longer be impressed by would-be prophets, seers, visionaries, dreamers, and various supposedly "very spiritual people". If I had a nickel for every "very spiritual person" I've spoken to, I'd be able to open my own coffee stand.

-CryptoLutheran
Exactly! Why should any one trust man and man's doctrine or theology outside of Scripture? The only being to trust is God. Only God is true, and all men, only liars.
 
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Edstano

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(Rev. 3:10). "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth."

To me, that seems to mean, God will rescue the born again believers in the rapture, prior to the Great Tribulation, and while that's going on down on earth, we'll be attending the Wedding of the Lamb in heaven (Rev.19:7-8). Also we will receive our room in heaven that's now being prepared for us (John 14:2-3).
 
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JacksBratt

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How much damage can one being do in 3.5 years, even if he has been preparing for 2500 years?

A ton.....Especially if there is no resistance from the church or the Holy Spirit...
 
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JacksBratt

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Jesus said that the dead would be raised on the last day.

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:40

St. Paul tells us that the dead will be raised at Christ's Parousia, and at that time the end comes.

"But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power." - 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

Christ's coming is in judgment of the living and the dead,

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead at His coming and of His kingdom" - 2 Timothy 4:1

The Lord's Parousia comes at a time no one knows,

"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." - Matthew 24:36

His coming in judgment is without warning,

"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37-39

So when are the dead raised? At Christ's coming.
When is Christ's coming? On the last day, which no one knows.

So Christ shall come in judgment, the dead shall be raised, Christ delivers all things over to the Father, and God makes all things new, world without end. That is what Scripture and the historic teaching of the Church says.

-CryptoLutheran
The Rapture.... is not the "second coming". These are two separate events.
 
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BABerean2

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That is why God says only 2 literal males will be the only witness.

Based only on Revelation 11:4, and Romans 11:24, and Revelation 1:20, the two witnesses would be a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelites, and believing Gentiles grafted together into the same Olive Tree.
They are the "candlesticks" found in the Book of Revelation in Revelation 1:20.

.
 
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BABerean2

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The Rapture.... is not the "second coming". These are two separate events.


Based on the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, they happen on the same day.

The event is described at the end of chapter 4, but the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5. The word "But" connects the two chapters.


The proof about the timing is found below.

.
 
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JacksBratt

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Based on the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, they happen on the same day.

The event is described at the end of chapter 4, but the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5. The word "But" connects the two chapters.


The proof about the timing is found below.

.
In your opinion... right?

In my opinion... The rapture occurs at the beginning of the tribulation and the second coming is 7 years later.
 
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BABerean2

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As pointed out, John does not write about the church after Revelation 7. We do not "see" the church until the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. There are several books in the New Testament which do not contain the word "church".

We find members of the New Covenant Church in the verse below.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of Christ's Church.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.
 
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BABerean2

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In your opinion... right?

In my opinion... The rapture occurs at the beginning of the tribulation and the second coming is 7 years later.


If you watch the video, you will see it is based on scripture instead of any man's opinion.


.
 
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ZNP

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It's fascinating what sorts of ideas people come up with when they just make things up.

-CryptoLutheran
This is why they call it crunch time, some people abandon the word of God and simply crumple up like an aluminum can.
 
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ZNP

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You have not read Genesis 3? You have not read Daniel? You have not read 2 Thessalonians 2? You have not read Revelation? God calls Satan a serpent and dragon. Satan mocks God with alien reptile beings. Daniel claims Satan is at work by 500BC. Paul confirms Satan has been working and will keep working until the church is taken away. It is now 2020. Math and common sense. When God and the Lamb come in the 6th seal, all of Satan's deception will be unveiled. That is when the church is complete and those alive will be raptured to Paradise in one complete body. No where does it say Paradise will be emptied out onto the earth.
Satan is a serpent, an old Dragon, and from that you have constructed a vivid interpretation that all the world leaders, all the fake media, they will push a story that the people being raptured were abducted by aliens. And that is what Gen 3 and Daniel and Paul say?

As wild as that sounds, the second part of this story is just as wild, they say this to calm people down. "Don't worry, that kooky Christian brother of yours wasn't raptured, he was abducted by aliens".

And the third part of this story is even more unbelievable. At a time where the entire world realizes the media is fake, they are censoring the truth, and the governments are lying to them they will accept this story.
 
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Sorn

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A ton.....Especially if there is no resistance from the church or the Holy Spirit...
More correctly, a ton if they have seized political power over several countries military forces or exert a high degree of influence over others not directly controlled.
 
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ZNP

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Every student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture delusionists.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture delusionists” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture delusionists.”

The pretrib rapture fallacy first appeared in the Christian Church in the 19th century.

It is a modernist fantasy.
I would have clicked "I agree" with this post but I am not allowed to. Apparently I did a terrible thing. I thought some of these posts were so absurd that the person was joking and so I clicked funny. But they weren't joking, they were serious! Can you imagine how hurtful that is for someone to laugh at your intricately constructed Biblical interpretation.
 
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ZNP

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Why should I believe that you have heard anything from God? Why should I trust you over the Bible? Why should I trust you over two thousand years of Christian teaching?

I get it, it probably feels good to think that one is very special and that they have some unique message from God or something. But I've been on the internet long enough to no longer be impressed by would-be prophets, seers, visionaries, dreamers, and various supposedly "very spiritual people". If I had a nickel for every "very spiritual person" I've spoken to, I'd be able to open my own coffee stand.

-CryptoLutheran
Whoa, whoa whoa! Are you saying you don't believe everything you read on the internet? Suppose it is coming from the Government, or major media? What if it is from the President himself? What if they tell you about a mass alien abduction? (PS I would have clicked Like on your post but I am not allowed to)
 
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ZNP

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The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. There are several books in the New Testament which do not contain the word "church".

We find members of the New Covenant Church in the verse below.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of Christ's Church.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.
Since the church is the gathering of the redeemed. (BTW I would have clicked useful for this post but I am not allowed to)
 
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Sorn

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Satan is a serpent, an old Dragon, and from that you have constructed a vivid interpretation that all the world leaders, all the fake media, they will push a story that the people being raptured were abducted by aliens. And that is what Gen 3 and Daniel and Paul say?

As wild as that sounds, the second part of this story is just as wild, they say this to calm people down. "Don't worry, that kooky Christian brother of yours wasn't raptured, he was abducted by aliens".

And the third part of this story is even more unbelievable. At a time where the entire world realizes the media is fake, they are censoring the truth, and the governments are lying to them they will accept this story.
It is a wild idea but this and many more wild ideas would be floating around if a pre-trib rapture happens and then nothing else happens for some years. All sorts of cults and will spring up saying they can explain what happenned and what it means etc.
This could be the time Jesus was talking about when he said 'many would come in my name and deceive many' (yes, it can also apply to other times but perhaps in a post pre-trib rapture time be especially prevalent)

Not sure what the official line would be, certainly different countries would have different 'official lines' but the period of time from a pre trib rapture to the start of the 7 year tribulation would be a time of increasing mystical / paranormal activity etc so that by the time the AC / FP show on the public scene their signs and wonders will be accepted as consistent with the world and nature etc. (otherwise they might be taken away to secret govt facilities to be probed and examined :) for years! )

Anyway, in the years between pre-trib rapture and 7 year trib, the world would change a lot, become far more accepting of a totally different view of reality, and be a period during which the AC / FP would rise to power (ruthlessly by the way but also while appearing to be nice guys) and finally be on the scene.
Things like the temple being built or the gog/magog war could occur in this period.
 
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ZNP

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It is a wild idea but this and many more wild ideas would be floating around if a pre-trib rapture happens and then nothing else happens for some years. All sorts of cults and will spring up saying they can explain what happenned and what it means etc.
This could be the time Jesus was talking about when he said 'many would come in my name and deceive many' (yes, it can also apply to other times but perhaps in a post pre-trib rapture time be especially prevalent)

Not sure what the official line would be, certainly different countries would have different 'official lines' but the period of time from a pre trib rapture to the start of the 7 year tribulation would be a time of increasing mystical / paranormal activity etc so that by the time the AC / FP show on the public scene their signs and wonders will be accepted as consistent with the world and nature etc. (otherwise they might be taken away to secret govt facilities to be probed and examined :) for years! )

Anyway, in the years between pre-trib rapture and 7 year trib, the world would change a lot, become far more accepting of a totally different view of reality, and be a period during which the AC / FP would rise to power (ruthlessly by the way but also while appearing to be nice guys) and finally be on the scene.
Things like the temple being built or the gog/magog war could occur in this period.
I don't understand any of this debate. The rapture is not a sign of the Lord's coming for the believers. In Matthew 24 Jesus compares the rapture to Noah entering the ark and the door closing. If you want to be in the ark when the flood comes there are a whole lot of signs you should be paying attention to, this is not one of them.
 
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