John MacArthur - Christ, Not Caesar, is head of the church

Running2win said:

Yeah, we are crazy for Jesus! Why don't you join us!

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The remedy is, don't follow religious crackpots. Read the bible for yourself apart from their interpretations.

redleghunter said:

Didn’t know Piper retired. Looked it up you are right. But I think he will still be active in his Desiring God ministry.

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Yeah he retired several years ago i think it was shortly before I moved out of my parents house but he still does his radio show. I listen to it from time to time but, honestly it's not the same as when he preached. But Piper is approaching his mid 70s so I dont really blame him. I never actually saw any videos from his preaching since he retired, he retired before I converted to Christianity but I did watch his sermons on youtube even before I identified as Calvinist. I loved to hear him preach because he had such fire in his heart for God and a lot of what he said and preached was found in the Bible. So I guess Piper was a part of the reason I became a Calvinist. I listened to a lot of Reformed preachers before turning Reformed. But yeah, everything God does or does for him just brings so much joy to Pipers heart. I wish I could have such joy someday.

Bible Highlighter said:

I am aware of that.
My point was that he and his congregation are not immune to the virus.



No. You don't get it. Persecution for Christ and even dying for the cause by doing missionary work is one thing, but to place your fellow brothers and sisters at risk in getting a virus is not an issue of faith but it is an issue of a lack of love towards your fellow brethren. Churches have already spread the virus already so their faith did not protect them. Why? Because they were not loving their brothers by not caring about them in being close to them and singing (thereby spreading the virus to them). The virus is not like a person who is persecuting the church. The virus is a judgment from God. It does not discriminate. I believe this virus is a test to truly wake people up to how things really are. Does your church really care about you? If they did, they would close their doors, do a meeting in cars in the parking lot, or go exclusively online or have meetings between 2-3 people max outside with nobody around. But they don't care. These kinds of churches don't care about you if they want you to gather in a big building and to sing so you can get the virus. They want your money for their putting on a show (like they always do). The real churches in my opinion will do what is good by protecting the brethren at all costs. But we can agree to disagree if you don't see what I am talking about.

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I do agree this is a test, and God allows everything to happen. And yes the virus does discriminate. The sick and elderly makes up most the cases, and over 40% were nursing home cases is a few states. Our days are numbered by God, what shall we fear?

Did you ever think this judgement from God is because we are not following Him, because we are not assembling together like he tells us to? When the mark of the Beast comes, will you cower at home in order to protect your family or 2-3 members, or go to Church and be a witness for God? I see this as a dry run for that.

Just like this virus, we won't be able to hide from him and his army. And the sad thing is members of our own church will hand us over. Just like we are seeing today with the division on theses forums. The separation is beginning in between following men and God. God wants those who will stand up, not bow down.

redleghunter said:

Short clip but this was memorable

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Yeah! I remember that statement! I watched about half of that Q&A I havent finished it yet but I agree with Sproul 100%. Not to mention we as Christian's look at Gods severity of punishment yet dont look at what God did for us at the Cross. Whether Limited Atonement or Condutional Election are the truth God loved us so much that he DIED for us. He SUFFERED for us on the cross!

Whenever you think God is unfair, look to the cross! The cross was the ultimate proof that God is a God of love. That he loved his sheep so much that he suffered a horrible punishment so that we can be with God FOREVER! I'm sorry but no other act in history tells the story of how much God cared about Abraham's descendants than that one. No, Just because God is a God of justice, its unfair.

Like Sproul said who are we to question God and his ways? We're not God! God is infinitely more powerful and intelligent than us so how will we EVER understand the reasons why he does the things he says he does? Yet hellfire is unfair. The fact that he died for his sheep is unfair. No its NOT unfair. Gods death for a majority of mankind proves that God loves the descendants of Abraham so much that he went to the cross for them. God does not extend his mercy to every human on the planet. If he does, why did God call certain men in history doomed to destruction? Why did God seal the doors on the arc, why did God consume half of Israel in fire when they worshipped the calf? Why did God command Israel to slaughter every nation God told them to conquer? Or what about Judas who God said fulfilled his purpose but it would be better if he not have been born. Were they given the chance of salvation? I think not.

Running2win said:

In certain areas, but if you watch the 24/7 covid coverage with the death toll tote board you'd think the whole country has problems and is in the same boat. I can tell you around the St. Louis area it is not bad at all for our population. The outlying areas it's nothing pretty well.

Put a tote board up and cover it 24/7 in a bad flu year you'd get the same panic. Also, if you have more testing you will have more positive cases, just how it works. But the survivor rate is better now, and that can be expected and is a sign the virus is weakening most likely.

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Of course national news provides national numbers. That’s why I subscribe to our local newspaper and also watch local news. I don’t think anyone of any intelligence thinks that COVID is hitting nationally at an equal rate. It is very bad in some areas. It was reported this morning that 19 states are currently considered to be red zones. Florida had 186 COVID deaths yesterday.

You can't hide from this, just like you can't from the seasonal flu. You have to let it spread and let everyone develop immunity, this is what we have always done in bad flu years-except this election year. We have never shut the country down like this and I'm 60, so I know.

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Actually there have been times when things were shut down because of pandemics. During the Spanish Flu people wore masks, schools, theaters, businesses and churches were shut down. And yes, you can stay inside and avoid crowds to avoid getting this. That includes avoiding crowds at church by attending online.

dqhall said:

Why were some hospital ICU’s filled beyond capacity? Why were ambulance crews in Texas told to not resuscitate heart attack victims? It is true treatment and drugs are improving, but why do you complain about concern for the aged and infirm as if it were inappropriate content? What sort of lies have you scared people with?

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The fact that the media has run wild with one or two stories about hospitals at capacity and one ambulance company told not to resuscitate people is indicative of the fear mongering I previously mentioned. We live in a massive country, that a handful of hospitals are at capacity isn't news. I do note that the media never tells us what level hospitals are at under normal circumstances.

Finally, a high-profile minister steps up and shows that HE IS A TRUE MAN OF GOD.

Refusing to submit to the insidious oppression of bio-terror, having no fellowship with the works of darkness but rather exposing the vain oppositions of science falsely so-called and the sorceries of Babylon that enslave men in the snares of the devil, who wish to save their life and gain the world but perish in all the deceivableness of unrighteousness, for they did not come to the knowledge of God because they loved sin and their deeds were evil.

Prayers, grace and blessings to John MacArthur and the unfathomable wisdom of God.

HappyHope said:

I had to giggle a bit at "Christ Himself acquiesced to the powers that think they be." Ain't that the truth! "the powers that think they be." We know who remains the real power the whole time. Amen.

Sharp eye to look and see if a message is Christ-centered first and foremost. Good reminder for us all. Passion for one's position does not automatically qualify as godly wisdom.

I'm all for playing cool with the government. God made that too. Even if other states allow formal church, I'm OK with it as long as everyone knows their personal risk and acts wisely. It just depends on whose authority you have been placed under.

It's a different story if one expects you to go against Christ though. This is not that. But some seem to think it is.

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Yes, God is Sovereign and always has been. The enemy is nothing in comparison. If you have gone through the born again experience, you understand something’s about God’s perfect plan.

Running2win said:

I do agree this is a test, and God allows everything to happen. And yes the virus does discriminate. The sick and elderly makes up most the cases, and over 40% were nursing home cases is a few states. Our days are numbered by God, what shall we fear?

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You need to learn the difference between not fearing what man can do to you, vs. tempting (or putting to the test) the Lord our God when it comes to protection. Behold, the scene in Scripture:


Okay, let me give you a real world example:

Your boat sinks, and there are sharks in the water. This is not something you desire to happen. Can God protect you in such a situation? Surely He can! God is all powerful. We should not fear in this situation, even if were to die. But if you were to swim in a pool of sharks with chum in it intentionally, then you are putting to the test the Lord's protection upon you. You are being cavalier about God protecting you. Jesus actually says that we are not to tempt the Lord our God. This is what folks are doing when they go into a situation that can harm many of their fellow brothers and sisters and even their fellow neighbors in town (because the virus can spread and multiply on the account of just one). Being in large groups makes the chances of the virus to spread quicker. It's not a conspiracy theory.

You said:

Did you ever think this judgement from God is because we are not following Him, because we are not assembling together like he tells us to? When the mark of the Beast comes, will you cower at home in order to protect your family or 2-3 members, or go to Church and be a witness for God? I see this as a dry run for that.

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Obviously the Lord did not intend His command to assemble together to be in super large groups during a virus situation that can harm our brothers and sisters. Again, if God protected His people by obeying them in assembling, then NOBODY would get the virus on the account of going to church. But that's not the reality of what we see happen, right? So this means that you are ignoring reality.

You said:

Just like this virus, we won't be able to hide from him and his army. And the sad thing is members of our own church will hand us over. Just like we are seeing today with the division on theses forums. The separation is beginning in between following men and God. God wants those who will stand up, not bow down.

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In the future: The Jews in the area of the temple are told by Scripture to flee to mountains and hide when they see the Abomination of Desolations take place in the temple.

redleghunter said:

Short clip but this was memorable

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There is a great deal that can be understood from The two Verses of Scripture herein.

Jas.2

1. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

1Pet.3 Verses 18 to 20

1. 
   [18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
   [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
   [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Archivist said:

Of course national news provides national numbers. That’s why I subscribe to our local newspaper and also watch local news. I don’t think anyone of any intelligence thinks that COVID is hitting nationally at an equal rate. It is very bad in some areas. It was reported this morning that 19 states are currently considered to be red zones. Florida had 186 COVID deaths yesterday.



Actually there have been times when things were shut down because of pandemics. During the Spanish Flu people wore masks, schools, theaters, businesses and churches were shut down. And yes, you can stay inside and avoid crowds to avoid getting this. That includes avoiding crowds at church by attending online.

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That's the point, the media, esp. the liberal media makes it sound like it is. And judging by the reactions on these forums, most people have bought into that the whole country/world is or will be having massive amounts of deaths.

Ha! You were not living during the Spanish Flu or anyone on this forum, and it killed millions, like est. 17-50. This is nothing like that.

We did not shut down during the Swine Flu as a recent example, and governments did nothing like we are doing now. This is media driven and is sadly being used for political reasons.

Bible Highlighter said:

You need to learn the difference between not fearing what man can do to you, vs. tempting (or putting to the test) the Lord our God when it comes to protection. Behold, the scene in Scripture:

6 “And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (Matthew 4:6-7).​

Okay, let me give you a real world example:

Your boat sinks, and there are sharks in the water. This is not something you desire to happen. Can God protect you in such a situation? Surely He can! God is all powerful. We should not fear in this situation, even if were to die. But if you were to swim in a pool of sharks with chum in it intentionally, then you are putting to the test the Lord's protection upon you. You are being cavalier about God protecting you. Jesus actually says that we are not to tempt the Lord our God. This is what folks are doing when they go into a situation that can harm many of their fellow brothers and sisters and even their fellow neighbors in town (because the virus can spread and multiply on the account of just one). Being in large groups makes the chances of the virus to spread quicker. It's not a conspiracy theory.



Obviously the Lord did not intend His command to assemble together to be in super large groups during a virus situation that can harm our brothers and sisters. Again, if God protected His people by obeying them in assembling, then NOBODY would get the virus on the account of going to church. But that's not the reality of what we see happen, right? So this means that you are ignoring reality.



In the future: The Jews in the area of the temple are told by Scripture to flee to mountains and hide when they see the Abomination of Desolations take place in the temple.

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Not everyone in the Church building are the Lords. In fact, the Laodicean Church had no true believers. And God judges the believer with sickness and even death- the sin unto death in some cases. But that is Gods dept.

Citing love does not take away from the fact that if you are healthy and have no sickness, why are you staying away from Church fellowship-esp. at this time when it is needed more than ever? The mandate is there for us to not forsake the assembling together.

3Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Redwingfan9 said:

The fact that the media has run wild with one or two stories about hospitals at capacity and one ambulance company told not to resuscitate people is indicative of the fear mongering I previously mentioned. We live in a massive country, that a handful of hospitals are at capacity isn't news. I do note that the media never tells us what level hospitals are at under normal circumstances.

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If you are young, you do not have to worry about this virus as much unless you have preexisting health conditions that make you vulnerable. It is older people who are at risk.

On the Diamond Princess cruise ship 700 people were infected and nine died. Some spent weeks in hospitals running up six figure hospital bills. Some of the infected were wealthy and powerful. Some young non-essential workers are suffering too. Maybe they should have stayed in school and learned useful professions.

Running2win said:

Not everyone in the Church building are the Lords. In fact, the Laodicean Church had no true believers. And God judges the believer with sickness and even death- the sin unto death in some cases. But that is Gods dept.

Citing love does not take away from the fact that if you are healthy and have no sickness, why are you staying away from Church fellowship-esp. at this time when it is needed more than ever? The mandate is there for us to not forsake the assembling together.

3Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

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You can fellowship among 2-3 believers in an outside place with masks. Nowhere does the command to assemble include gathering in a large building and singing in a specific large number of people. It does not say to gather in a big church building. It does not say that we should gather always in large numbers.

As for the passage you quote: Those who are sick and dying are those who are not loving the brethren by eating up all the food and drink at the gathering before other believers arrive.


1 Corinthians 11 is not in reference or context to having fellowship even if there is a virus that can kill the brethren because one does not care about spreading the virus to each other.

dqhall said:

If you are young, you do not have to worry about this virus as much unless you have preexisting health conditions that make you vulnerable. It is older people who are at risk.

On the Diamond Princess cruise ship 700 people were infected and nine died. Some spent weeks in hospitals running up six figure hospital bills. Some of the infected were wealthy and powerful. Some young non-essential workers are suffering too. Maybe they should have stayed in school and learned useful professions.

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The overwhelming majority of those who die of Chinese Coronavirus have been senior citizens. Even in this group, survival is well over 98%, though it gets lower the older you are. If you're at risk by all means stay home if you want. However, this one size fits all approach is creating worse medical and societal problems than the virus. Suicides are up, economic despair is deepening. Kids are getting subpar online educations that will harm them for their entire lives, particularly the poor. The unintended consequences of shutdowns and restrictions aren't being discussed by a media that wants our lives fundamentally altered.

lsume said:

Yes, God is Sovereign and always has been. The enemy is nothing in comparison. If you have gone through the born again experience, you understand something’s about God’s perfect plan.

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It seems this virus has exposed a lot of Christians and helped to beef up other Christians in our country. God knows what he is doing.

Whether old people are more at risk does not mean we should reopen everything again. That is basically saying, “Let the elderly die.” That is not loving towards our elders. Again, I believe this is a problem and speaks of the times that we are in.

The love of many will grow cold.

Redwingfan9 said:

The overwhelming majority of those who die of Chinese Coronavirus have been senior citizens. Even in this group, survival is well over 98%, though it gets lower the older you are. If you're at risk by all means stay home if you want. However, this one size fits all approach is creating worse medical and societal problems than the virus. Suicides are up, economic despair is deepening. Kids are getting subpar online educations that will harm them for their entire lives, particularly the poor. The unintended consequences of shutdowns and restrictions aren't being discussed by a media that wants our lives fundamentally altered.

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Can you blame people for not going to movie theaters during a pandemic? Why should I go to a restaurant, when home cooked meals are a fraction of the cost?

A Florida flooring contractor told me he is booked solid for two months. He bids low. Other people complain there are no jobs. Jesus said, “The harvest is plentiful, the workers are few.”

In Dade County, Florida 110,352 have been infected. Of these 5,254 have been hospitalized. Of these 1425 have died. That means 4.7% of those infected require hospitalization. How much does a day and a night in the hospital cost. How much does ICU care cost? Medical debt is a leading cause of US bankruptcies.

Some alcoholics and addicts committed suicide rather than lear essential job skills.

Running2win said:

That's the point, the media, esp. the liberal media makes it sound like it is. And judging by the reactions on these forums, most people have bought into that the whole country/world is or will be having massive amounts of deaths.

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I don't see that. I think most people realize that infection rates vary depending on where you are. The news reports are fair--when I watched national broadcasts this morning, they specifically identified the 19 states that are code red. They also identified the one state that is code green.

Ha! You were not living during the Spanish Flu or anyone on this forum, and it killed millions, like est. 17-50. This is nothing like that.

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Your providing worldwide numbers. In the US approximately 675,000 died from it.

An part of the reason why the Spanish Flu killed so many compared to COVID is that we have made so many medical advances since 1918. We don't yet have a cure, but we have ways of treating disease that weren't even imagined in 1918.

We did not shut down during the Swine Flu as a recent example, and governments did nothing like we are doing now. This is media driven and is sadly being used for political reasons.

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Political reasons? Nonsense. Shutdowns--including shutdowns of churches--were conducted to protect public health.

Bible Highlighter said:

Whether old people are more at risk does not mean we should reopen everything again. That is basically saying, “Let the elderly die.” That is not loving towards our elders. Again, I believe this is a problem and speaks of the times that we are in.

The love of many will grow cold.

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And reopening everything makes it more likely that young people will catch COVID and pass it on to there parents and grandparents.