John MacArthur - Christ, Not Caesar, is head of the church

Running2win

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Of course I’m talking about the US. Apparently you need to start reading newspapers or watching the news. Yes, the numbers are pretty accurate.


COVID spreads too easy. Look what happened when many states opened up—numbers went through the roof, ICU units filled up.

In certain areas, but if you watch the 24/7 covid coverage with the death toll tote board you'd think the whole country has problems and is in the same boat. I can tell you around the St. Louis area it is not bad at all for our population. The outlying areas it's nothing pretty well.

Put a tote board up and cover it 24/7 in a bad flu year you'd get the same panic. Also, if you have more testing you will have more positive cases, just how it works. But the survivor rate is better now, and that can be expected and is a sign the virus is weakening most likely.

You can't hide from this, just like you can't from the seasonal flu. You have to let it spread and let everyone develop immunity, this is what we have always done in bad flu years-except this election year. We have never shut the country down like this and I'm 60, so I know.
 
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Running2win

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So do you think the virus just only attacked the Alabama church and or it is limited to a certain point in time? Come on now.
I'm not sure what you are talking about? Grace Church is in CA.

On face value, no I don't. The Scripture verse in Rev is showing that God allows testing and even dying. Being faithful meant the people should keep gathering together and trust in the Lord. I think that message is for all the churches as encouragement in this crisis: Trust in the Lord, do not fear.
Make no mistake this is a test and dry run for what is coming.
 
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Running2win

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The coffers are getting empty. Sad that this leads most Pastors to put their congregations at risk, even those who are highly respected.
Be blessed.
Not all churches or pastors are bad. What is more important, the flesh or the spirit? A Pastors job is to feed the sheep.
with spiritual food.

26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Not all churches or pastors are bad. What is more important, the flesh or the spirit? A Pastors job is to feed the sheep.
with spiritual food.

26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
I ll change my comment from "most" to "some".
 
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redleghunter

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Have you ever seen Piper or Sproul either? I think they are both fantastic as well. I used to like how Piper preached it was with such love for God in his heart. It's a shame Piper retired and Sproul is with Christ now. But at least Piper still does his radio show for Lord knows how much longer.

I still like watching Sprouls sermons and classes but there's not anything much new anymore. Ligionier just keep replaying the same lectures over and over again. If you havent seen either you might like them. They're on par with Mcarthurs teachings.
Didn’t know Piper retired. Looked it up you are right. But I think he will still be active in his Desiring God ministry.
 
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redleghunter

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Have you ever seen Piper or Sproul either? I think they are both fantastic as well. I used to like how Piper preached it was with such love for God in his heart. It's a shame Piper retired and Sproul is with Christ now. But at least Piper still does his radio show for Lord knows how much longer.

I still like watching Sprouls sermons and classes but there's not anything much new anymore. Ligionier just keep replaying the same lectures over and over again. If you havent seen either you might like them. They're on par with Mcarthurs teachings.

Short clip but this was memorable

 
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HappyHope

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Christ Himself acquiesced to the powers that think they be. What He teaches agrees with that philosophy as I understand it. We are never to strive with our fellow man. We are not to bow down to false gods either. The point is that it seems to be more about the pastor than about Christ.

I had to giggle a bit at "Christ Himself acquiesced to the powers that think they be." Ain't that the truth! "the powers that think they be." We know who remains the real power the whole time. Amen.

Sharp eye to look and see if a message is Christ-centered first and foremost. Good reminder for us all. Passion for one's position does not automatically qualify as godly wisdom.

I'm all for playing cool with the government. God made that too. Even if other states allow formal church, I'm OK with it as long as everyone knows their personal risk and acts wisely. It just depends on whose authority you have been placed under.

It's a different story if one expects you to go against Christ though. This is not that. But some seem to think it is.
 
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ChristianK

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It makes me angry to see a christian board slander Pastor MacArthur's message. It is true and biblical. I have not seen ONE contradicting verse given. But I have seen all sorts of propaganda and slander out of lying tongues. Christ is the head of the church, not newsom. I don't recall the word of God mentioning anything about fearing for your earthly life and not going to church. The devil is the lie.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It makes me angry to see a christian board slander Pastor MacArthur's message. It is true and biblical. I have not seen ONE contradicting verse given. But I have seen all sorts of propaganda and slander out of lying tongues. Christ is the head of the church, not newsom. I don't recall the word of God mentioning anything about fearing for your earthly life and not going to church. The devil is the lie.

No one is suggesting that the worldly powers, rather than Christ, is the head of the Church. The Church confesses her one Lord, Jesus Christ; and by this denies the presumed lordship of all other powers.

But this isn't about submitting to Caesar rather than Christ.

If Christ is Lord (and He is) then His command is that we love one another and love our neighbor. Refusing to do something as basic as social distancing during a world-wide pandemic is not submitting to the Lordship of Christ, it isn't loving our neighbor, it isn't resisting Caesar, it's false piety. It's pride wearing a religious outfit.

We know what that kind of religion looks like already, it's the kind of religion that Jesus rebukes throughout the Gospels. It's those who think they are being clever by bringing Jesus a coin and asking Him, "What say you, should we pay our taxes to Caesar?" Because they want to trap Jesus, after all if He says, "Yes, pay your taxes" then they can say, "Oh, so we should submit to Roman oppression and power?" and if He says, "No, don't pay your taxes" then they can say, "Oh, so you would resist Rome and bring danger to us all?" Jesus, instead, asks them whose face is on that coin. It is Caesar's. They are hypocrites, for all their bluster about not submitting to Caesar they are already in league with him. They already have their lord, and it is Caesar. These are the very same hypocrites who formed the mob that day the Lord was brought before Pilate. The mob cries out, "We have no king but Caesar!"

It is all bluster and no substance. With one side of the mouth feigning devotion to God, and with the other genuflecting before Caesar's power.

If Christ, and not Caesar, is head of the Church, then where was the outcry against children being locked behind bars? Where's the outcry against the fascist goose-stompers in Portland violently attacking and arresting protestors and bystanders? Where's the outcry for the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry, the thirsty, the oppressed, the marginalized?

This is the hill? Really? Not caring for the health and safety of our neighbors and fellow parishioners? That's the hill that certain Christians are going to die on?

"Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! What to Me is the multitude of your sacrifices? Says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lams, or of goats. When you come to appear before ME, who has required of you this trampling of My courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them." - Isaiah 1:10-14

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did an abomination before Me. So I removed them, when I saw it." - Ezekiel 16:49-50

-CryptoLutheran
 
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It makes me angry to see a christian board slander Pastor MacArthur's message. It is true and biblical. I have not seen ONE contradicting verse given. But I have seen all sorts of propaganda and slander out of lying tongues. Christ is the head of the church, not newsom. I don't recall the word of God mentioning anything about fearing for your earthly life and not going to church. The devil is the lie.

John MacArthur's ministry was sued for teaching that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. In 1980: Kenneth Nally committed suicide thinking he would be saved on the account of the teachings in John MacArthur's ministry. Coincidentally afterwards that is when John MacArthur started promoting his Lordship Salvation books. But that did not stop John from teaching that a believer can still sin and still be saved. Just check out the video.


The fact that he is not shutting down only shows that he is concerned with the money to keep his ministry and lifestyle afloat and he is not concerned for the safety and well being of his fellow congregants.

Other churches are worse (for not only gathering in large groups to sing and spread the virus to each other), but they have a lack of love to tell others that they do not even have to wear a mask (thereby making the spread of the virus even worse). Here is a quote from an article of such nonsense.

"They will be selling Frosty's in the lake of fire before Greg Locke and Global Vision Bible Church ever closes down," the pastor continued. "I don't care if they send the military, they roll up in there with tanks…ladies and gentleman, we are staying open. We are packed to capacity. You ain't gotta wear a mask."​

The Bible says that love of many will grow cold.
If there was even a fraction of a truth that the virus could be prevented to my fellow believers by my practicing the protocols recommended by the government, I would do everything in my power to obey them out of love for protecting my fellow brothers and sisters. Why they cannot see this is beyond me. Besides, Romans 13 essentially says we are to obey the Law of the land (obviously if it does not conflict with God's laws).

Look folks. You can have fellowship online, or in 2-3 people gatherings outside with face mask coverings and not a lot of people around. One does not have to go into a big building that is enclosed with a lot of people singing and spreading the virus to each other.

People have lost their minds.
Either that or they simply do not have any common sense.

Source:
https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-say...e-his-church-you-aint-gotta-wear-mask-1521042
 
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quietpraiyze

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John MacArthur won't be paying, unless he ends up getting sued and settling or losing. He will be socially distanced at the pulpit.

I also tend to look at things from a perspective of economic incentives. The economy has been hit hard, lots of people are out of jobs, and churches have not been holding as many in person services to the typical numbers of people. Given all of this, church budgets are obviously strained (and I see Grace Community Church on the list of PPP loan recipients [1] ). There is, then, an economic incentive in place for churches to reopen their doors as the church staff's source of income is dependent on the voluntary giving of the congregation members, and since there is a $1-2 million loan to be re-payed. John MacArthur may have moral claims to reopening, but there is also an unstated economic incentive for reopening. Who benefits economically from the church reopening? The church and it's staff, including (presumably) John MacArthur. Who bears the risk for the church reopening? The congregation members who will be risking covid-19.

Christ, not Ceasar, may be the head of the Church, but for some churches Caesar's loans work just fine.

[1] SBA Paycheck Protection Program Loan Level Data | U.S. Department of the Treasury

Wow...just...wow. To me that's like talking out of both sides of their mouth...
 
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quietpraiyze

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No one is suggesting that the worldly powers, rather than Christ, is the head of the Church. The Church confesses her one Lord, Jesus Christ; and by this denies the presumed lordship of all other powers.

But this isn't about submitting to Caesar rather than Christ.

If Christ is Lord (and He is) then His command is that we love one another and love our neighbor. Refusing to do something as basic as social distancing during a world-wide pandemic is not submitting to the Lordship of Christ, it isn't loving our neighbor, it isn't resisting Caesar, it's false piety. It's pride wearing a religious outfit.

We know what that kind of religion looks like already, it's the kind of religion that Jesus rebukes throughout the Gospels. It's those who think they are being clever by bringing Jesus a coin and asking Him, "What say you, should we pay our taxes to Caesar?" Because they want to trap Jesus, after all if He says, "Yes, pay your taxes" then they can say, "Oh, so we should submit to Roman oppression and power?" and if He says, "No, don't pay your taxes" then they can say, "Oh, so you would resist Rome and bring danger to us all?" Jesus, instead, asks them whose face is on that coin. It is Caesar's. They are hypocrites, for all their bluster about not submitting to Caesar they are already in league with him. They already have their lord, and it is Caesar. These are the very same hypocrites who formed the mob that day the Lord was brought before Pilate. The mob cries out, "We have no king but Caesar!"

It is all bluster and no substance. With one side of the mouth feigning devotion to God, and with the other genuflecting before Caesar's power.

If Christ, and not Caesar, is head of the Church, then where was the outcry against children being locked behind bars? Where's the outcry against the fascist goose-stompers in Portland violently attacking and arresting protestors and bystanders? Where's the outcry for the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry, the thirsty, the oppressed, the marginalized?

This is the hill? Really? Not caring for the health and safety of our neighbors and fellow parishioners? That's the hill that certain Christians are going to die on?

"Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! What to Me is the multitude of your sacrifices? Says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lams, or of goats. When you come to appear before ME, who has required of you this trampling of My courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them." - Isaiah 1:10-14

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did an abomination before Me. So I removed them, when I saw it." - Ezekiel 16:49-50

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This was POWERFUL!
 
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I'm not sure what you are talking about? Grace Church is in CA.

I am aware of that.
My point was that he and his congregation are not immune to the virus.

You said:
On face value, no I don't. The Scripture verse in Rev is showing that God allows testing and even dying. Being faithful meant the people should keep gathering together and trust in the Lord. I think that message is for all the churches as encouragement in this crisis: Trust in the Lord, do not fear.
Make no mistake this is a test and dry run for what is coming.

No. You don't get it. Persecution for Christ and even dying for the cause by doing missionary work is one thing, but to place your fellow brothers and sisters at risk in getting a virus is not an issue of faith but it is an issue of a lack of love towards your fellow brethren. Churches have already spread the virus already so their faith did not protect them. Why? Because they were not loving their brothers by not caring about them in being close to them and singing (thereby spreading the virus to them). The virus is not like a person who is persecuting the church. The virus is a judgment from God. It does not discriminate. I believe this virus is a test to truly wake people up to how things really are. Does your church really care about you? If they did, they would close their doors, do a meeting in cars in the parking lot, or go exclusively online or have meetings between 2-3 people max outside with nobody around. But they don't care. These kinds of churches don't care about you if they want you to gather in a big building and to sing so you can get the virus. They want your money for their putting on a show (like they always do). The real churches in my opinion will do what is good by protecting the brethren at all costs. But we can agree to disagree if you don't see what I am talking about.
 
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ChristianK

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A common tactic of the enemy is to call the truth a lie. But you assert that MacArthur's message is all bluster, and yet you provided no scripture to back your claims for fearing for your earthly life and not attend church.
And as far as your virus fear propaganda, MacArthur alludes to the widely reported prediction models of millions dying in America. Where did that go? We all go to the grocery stores daily, yet you would have us not go to church? 150,000 Americans did not die because of the virus, or even with the virus. The CDC already states that they don't require testing to be included in the count. This is propaganda, and some are even paid to spread it in forums. I would not expect anything more from someone with a homosexual-founded organization in their avatar.
Keep on with your slanderous analogies with no biblical basis.
 
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This is why folks should not gather in church now.

In Texas, about 50 people contracted the virus after a pastor told congregants they could once again hug one another. In Florida, a teenage girl died last month after attending a youth party at her church.

More than 650 coronavirus cases have been linked to nearly 40 churches and religious events across the United States since the beginning of the pandemic, with many of them erupting over the last month as Americans resumed their pre-pandemic activities,​

If you love your brothers and sisters, stay home or fellowship in a safer way.

Source used:
Churches Were Eager to Reopen. Now They Are Confronting Coronavirus Cases.
 
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A common tactic of the enemy is to call the truth a lie. But you assert that MacArthur's message is all bluster, and yet you provided no scripture to back your claims for fearing for your earthly life and not attend church.
And as far as your virus fear propaganda, MacArthur alludes to the widely reported prediction models of millions dying in America. Where did that go? We all go to the grocery stores daily, yet you would have us not go to church? 150,000 Americans did not die because of the virus, or even with the virus. The CDC already states that they don't require testing to be included in the count. This is propaganda, and some are even paid to spread it in forums. I would not expect anything more from someone with a homosexual-founded organization in their avatar.
Keep on with your slanderous analogies with no biblical basis.

So you are saying that Kenneth Nally did not exist?
Are you saying that John M. does not teach that a believer can be taken home early on the account of their sinning? Like God is going to reward a person for doing more evil? Okay. That doesn't make any sense. Not only that, but he is a Calvinist, as well. Unconditional Election is clearly not taught in the Bible.

As for the virus situation: I cannot believe I am actually trying to convince you to stay away from large crowds during a virus situation that is bad. Food is a necessity. You need food to live. Fellowship is important but not in a big gathering that shows your lack of love for others if you attend. It has nothing to do with fear. But it has to do with love, and being in obedience to God's Word (See: Romans 13).

Fellowship can be done by different means in smaller 2-3 person gatherings outside or it can be done in cars within a parking lot watching a movie screen on the church building.

Even if the media or government was lying about these things, why take the chance and be wrong? Others took the chance and they were wrong. See post #76. That is what I don't get about your position here. Even if there was a 00000.1% chance my brothers and sisters could die by my being near them and to hurt a lot of people, I would not put them at risk out of my love for them.
 
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A common tactic of the enemy is to call the truth a lie. But you assert that MacArthur's message is all bluster, and yet you provided no scripture to back your claims for fearing for your earthly life and not attend church.
And as far as your virus fear propaganda, MacArthur alludes to the widely reported prediction models of millions dying in America. Where did that go? We all go to the grocery stores daily, yet you would have us not go to church? 150,000 Americans did not die because of the virus, or even with the virus. The CDC already states that they don't require testing to be included in the count. This is propaganda, and some are even paid to spread it in forums. I would not expect anything more from someone with a homosexual-founded organization in their avatar.
Keep on with your slanderous analogies with no biblical basis.

I believe a Christian is to not fear their earthly life. I am all for a believer dying for the cause of Christ. But spreading a virus to your fellow brothers and sisters is not the cause for Christ by gathering in large groups with them. I am all for God protecting us, and He can protect us by miracles. But I actually think if we do not care about the brethren and their lives, then all bets are off. God's hand of protection is then not on us when we do not love the brethren by not caring about their lives. Christians today think about me, me, me, and me. Yet, they need to think about their brothers and sisters and protecting their lives. Sure, you can gather with 2-3 believers. That is safer. But to gather in larger groups is just a way of getting MANY of the brethren sick and to multiply the virus even more to their neighbors. We are supposed to love our neighbor and not kill them by not caring about how to prevent the virus to others. You may see it as all lies. But people have gotten sick and died from gathering in churches. So why do it? Why keep putting the fellow brethren at risk? What is to gain? What do the churches offer that cannot be done online or in small 2-3 people meetings? Nothing. So it comes down to love. This is the test that God is putting even Christians under, and many are failing that test. I suppose people do not realize that the early church gathered in homes in smaller groups. But even that today would not be wise under the circumstances. There are more innovative ways to fellowship and to love the brethren and to learn God's Word.
 
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We are to study to show ourselves approved of unto God (2 Timothy 2:15).
I don't believe we should be spoon fed every Sunday once a week.
Perhaps this is the draw for many.
But God's Word needs to live on the inside of us. So we need to feed ourselves daily. The fellowship with the brethren can be done in 2-3 person gatherings.
In fact, smaller gathers like that is more intimate and personal and it allows for the brethren to bond together better.
 
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ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
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A common tactic of the enemy is to call the truth a lie. But you assert that MacArthur's message is all bluster, and yet you provided no scripture to back your claims for fearing for your earthly life and not attend church.

I didn't think I had to offer the exact biblical reference to the command that we love our neighbor. I assumed that this was something most of us were already quite familiar with. But very well,

"'Rabbi, which is the great commandment of the Law?' And He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.'" - Matthew 22:36-40

And as far as your virus fear propaganda, MacArthur alludes to the widely reported prediction models of millions dying in America. Where did that go? We all go to the grocery stores daily, yet you would have us not go to church? 150,000 Americans did not die because of the virus, or even with the virus. The CDC already states that they don't require testing to be included in the count.

Global pandemics don't tend to care about a person's personal partisan politics.

This is propaganda, and some are even paid to spread it in forums.

Ah, conspiracy theories.

I would not expect anything more from someone with a homosexual-founded organization in their avatar.

Ad hominem attacks and fallacious arguments are all well and good, but they don't actually provide any measure of substance to a discussion.

Keep on with your slanderous analogies with no biblical basis.

I mean, you know very well that my previous post had biblical basis. What you don't like is that it doesn't align with your personal feelings about current events.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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