I'm trying to understand this part of Arminianism

KnightHawke7 · Jul 24, 2020

Yeah, me too! :help:

Please see my reply above...

bbbbbbb · Jul 24, 2020

KnightHawke7 said:
Thank you for your kind words. You wrote, “God may allow his opponent to free make his own moves, but God, being omniscient, has known all of the moves his opponent will make and thus is easily able to outwit His opponent…” This is an accurate observation, but your comment might reflect the common misconception that foreknowledge and causality are unavoidably linked. The fact that God knew what moves His opponent was going to make did not cause His opponent to choose those specific moves. The cause of the move selections was in the opponent himself, who then must live with his choices and their repercussions. Jesus foreknew that Peter was going to deny Him three times on the night He was betrayed, but Jesus’ foreknowledge did not cause Peter’s denial nor relieve Peter of the responsibility for his choice. God foreknew that Adam, though created perfect, would choose to sin, but God’s foreknowledge did not force Adam to sin. Therefore, one must conclude that foreknowledge is not determinative.

I did not intend to imply any causality, but merely noted the curious interrelationship with omniscience. I am not aware that Arminians deny omniscience in its fullest sense as an attribute of God. Thus, although one's actions might be freely determined by oneself, God's actions and reactions can be reasonably understood in the light of His foreknowledge.

Radagast · Jul 24, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
I am not aware that Arminians deny omniscience in its fullest sense as an attribute of God.

Those Arminians that are Open Theists do.

KnightHawke7 · Jul 24, 2020

Dear B7,

I apologize if I misconstrued your last post. I agree that, to my knowledge, Arminians fully believe in God’s omniscience as a divine attribute.

As I interact with others in this forum I need to remember that before I can say “I disagree” I must first be able to truly say “I understand”. Again, my apologies.

KnightHawke7 · Jul 24, 2020

Radagast said:
Those Arminians that are Open Theists do.

That is true; I stand corrected. Is a Calvinist who believes in Open Theism an oxymoron?

bbbbbbb · Jul 24, 2020

Radagast said:
Those Arminians that are Open Theists do.

Open Theists are in a class unto themselves IMO.

bbbbbbb · Jul 24, 2020

KnightHawke7 said:
Dear B7,

I apologize if I misconstrued your last post. I agree that, to my knowledge, Arminians fully believe in God’s omniscience as a divine attribute.

As I interact with others in this forum I need to remember that before I can say “I disagree” I must first be able to truly say “I understand”. Again, my apologies.

No problem, apology accepted.

Radagast · Jul 24, 2020

KnightHawke7 said:
That is true; I stand corrected. Is a Calvinist who believes in Open Theism an oxymoron?

Yes.

Radagast · Jul 24, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
Open Theists are in a class unto themselves IMO.

Arminian theologians seem increasingly to be Open Theists.

This is presumably because libertarian free will and Divine Foreknowledge are so hard to reconcile.

Running2win · Jul 24, 2020

Here is a pretty good article. I'm not big on irresistible grace so I'm more of a four pointer I guess. I think the way God makes us determines if we will respond to His call. Kinda like the God gene.

Thus the chosen will respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit, the wicked having being made that way will not. Both are acting out of their own choice, and you could step in and "tweak" things here and there too if you wanted-or not.

I mean how would you do it if you were God?

It seems you would design some how you wanted, and others not so-cause they are yours to do with what you want. And you would even be astonished by what both do when you see them in action.

Face it. Would an unsaved person be happy for eternity around a bunch of born again Christians talking about God. :scratch:

Ah! The mystery of the spiritual birth. God is just Amazing! :clap:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/meet-a-reformed-arminian/

KnightHawke7 · Jul 25, 2020

I read the article you referenced and found it very interesting. I found J. Matthew Pinson’s description of a Reformed Arminian to be very intriguing and something to be researched more in-depth. He mentioned two authors that I have also found helpful, Robert Picirilli and Leroy Forlines. Thank you for the article.

Running2win · Jul 25, 2020

KnightHawke7 said:
I read the article you referenced and found it very interesting. I found J. Matthew Pinson’s description of a Reformed Arminian to be very intriguing and something to be researched more in-depth. He mentioned two authors that I have also found helpful, Robert Picirilli and Leroy Forlines. Thank you for the article.

No problemo.

HatGuy · Jul 28, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Surely you dont reject God's sovreignty and power which is plastered all over the Bible? God has to be in control of some things (let alone everything) or he isn't God. God has to be in control of DNA, molecules, or debris or how would our world function? How do you think you met your spouse? Or got into the perfect job that you got into? Graduated from college at just the right time cementing whatever career you wanted for yourself? How does God know your name and know what college you went to and everything about you if hes not sovereign?

There are a lot of questions here, making it difficult to address at once, but some of the assumptions here are worth talking about as they arrive at some answers to the overall gist of your post:

1. Not everyone's marriage works out. Is that God's sovereign will?
2. Not everyone lands neatly into the perfect job. In fact, most people don't.
3. Likewise with graduating or cementing a career. In what perfect world does all this happen?
4. God could know everything because of his foreknowledge of the future.

There is an assumption here that if God does not choose to cause everything he causes nothing. But why couldn't God choose to cause some things and not others? I see no reason for an either / or.

Neostarwcc · Jul 28, 2020

HatGuy said:
There are a lot of questions here, making it difficult to address at once, but some of the assumptions here are worth talking about as they arrive at some answers to the overall gist of your post:

1. Not everyone's marriage works out. Is that God's sovereign will?
2. Not everyone lands neatly into the perfect job. In fact, most people don't.
3. Likewise with graduating or cementing a career. In what perfect world does all this happen?
4. God could know everything because of his foreknowledge of the future.

There is an assumption here that if God does not choose to cause everything he causes nothing. But why couldn't God choose to cause some things and not others? I see no reason for an either / or.

Were getting into the hypotheticals here. Obviously I cannot say with 100% assurance that I'm correct because I'm not God. But I think it's more likely than not to be a reasonable explanation as to why our Lord does what he does. After all the bible does say that Gods works all things according to his own purposes. So it could be possible that the answer to a lot of your questions are yes the negatives are also a part of God's perfect plan. Sometimes we dont get a job that we want and get into something way better. Like say ministry or theology for an example. You're right many marriages end in divorce but divorce will ALWAYS lead to something better. Whether sometime in the Christian's eternal future or im their life God ALWAYS works all things to good for those who are called according to his purpose.

Its clear that God hates divorce so how can this be? Again this is speculation into the mind of a wannabe Theologian but God could use a divorce for good. They could meet somebody way better. They could go into ministry or a billion different possible outcomes.

I mentioned a few replies back that its possible David's Adultery could have been predestined. Because if he didn't sleep with her Solomon never would have been born (who was a great well blessed Jewish King. Probably the second greatest king to David) and the baby they made together before that killed by God as punishment for his adultery served his purpose in God's plan as well. David believed he would see his son again even though God killed him. Also had David not cheated he might not have repented and had he not repented his future might not have been so awesome. Out of EVERY Jewish King ever David has the greatest future. Why is that? Why did God choose David over Saul? Because Saul was supposed to have this future! Why did God "change his mind?" (He didn't). The mind of our Lord is unreachable. We will never for 100% know why he does the things he does. But he has turned evil into good and will several times over.

A lot of times what feels like the worst part of our lives, are actually the biggest blessings.

HatGuy · Jul 28, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Were getting into the hypotheticals here. Obviously I cannot say with 100% assurance that I'm correct because I'm not God. But I think it's more likely than not to be a reasonable explanation as to why our Lord does what he does. After all the bible does say that Gods works all things according to his own purposes. So it could be possible that the answer to a lot of your questions are yes the negatives are also a part of God's perfect plan. Sometimes we dont get a job that we want and get into something way better. Like say ministry or theology for an example. You're right many marriages end in divorce but divorce will ALWAYS lead to something better. Whether sometime in the Christian's eternal future or im their life God ALWAYS works all things to good for those who are called according to his purpose.

Its clear that God hates divorce so how can this be? Again this is speculation into the mind of a wannabe Theologian but God could use a divorce for good. They could meet somebody way better. They could go into ministry or a billion different possible outcomes.

I mentioned a few replies back that its possible David's Adultery could have been predestined. Because if he didn't sleep with her Solomon never would have been born (who was a great well blessed Jewish King. Probably the second greatest king to David) and the baby they made together before that killed by God as punishment for his adultery served his purpose in God's plan as well. David believed he would see his son again even though God killed him. Also had David not cheated he might not have repented and had he not repented his future might not have been so awesome. Out of EVERY Jewish King ever David has the greatest future. Why is that? Why did God choose David over Saul? Because Saul was supposed to have this future! Why did God "change his mind?" (He didn't). The mind of our Lord is unreachable. We will never for 100% know why he does the things he does. But he has turned evil into good and will several times over.

A lot of times what feels like the worst part of our lives, are actually the biggest blessings.

You can't assume God's ability to turn evil into good as meaning that God planned / purposed the evil in the first place. There's no real reason to make that step unless you presuppose a definition of sovereignty rather than let the Bible make the definition for you.

Neostarwcc · Jul 28, 2020

Thank you for the responses guys! I have a much deeper understanding of everything now I even enjoyed the "Reformed Arminian article it was massive informative, I didnt realize that Reformed and Arminian theology could actually coexist with each other. A lot of what Arminians say about the sovreignty of God is similar to the Reformed. I like that.

Neostarwcc · Jul 28, 2020

HatGuy said:
You can't assume God's ability to turn evil into good as meaning that God planned / purposed the evil in the first place. There's no real reason to make that step unless you presuppose a definition of sovereignty rather than let the Bible make the definition for you.

Possibly. This is confirmed in Genesis in the story of Joseph. He was thrown in a pit and left to die and later sold into slavery. But God planned it all for good in the end when he earned Pharoahs favor and was able to gain the acceptance of his brothers and save them from famine due to these events happening. Theres also the story of Paul. He murdered and persecuted Christian's to become not only a Christian himself but Christ's chosen preacher to the gentiles. He also wrote over half of the New Testament. Idk about you but I think regardless of Paul's horrible past he's enjoying a great future now.

That's the problem with Christisnity today. We dont have faith God anymore. Every horrible situation that happens to us (even this corona virus) will lead to good. It always does. Even though God is the cause of this disease. The plagues in Revelation. God ordained right? And what comes after the plagues? Or what came to Israel after God put the plagues on Egypt and settled things with Pharoah "his way"?

God could have commanded Pharoah to release the Israelites and Pharoah would have obeyed him. But, that was not God's way.

I'm not saying God is evil. That is FAR from the truth. But I am saying that he uses evil for good.

Radagast · Jul 28, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
I didnt realize that Reformed and Arminian theology could actually coexist with each other.

Well, they can't of course. If you think so, you misunderstand one or the other.

Neostarwcc · Jul 28, 2020

Radagast said:
Well, they can't of course. If you think so, you misunderstand one or the other.

Well apparently if Arminians believe in the sovreignty of God we're not too far apart. If you denied God's sovreignty in its entirety than we might have a problem.

Calvinism is big on the issue of God's sovreignty we believe everything is controlled and ran by God from DNA down to dust particles. Basically if it exists God's in control. It seems where we differ is on the topic of his sovreignty in humanity. We believe our lives are predestined by God (especially those who God calls aka the saved), Arminians believe in free will. That's where we differ but if you think of God's sovreignty of everything else we're not all that much different since we both believe in total sovreignty.

Surely you dont deny that God is in control of DNA, Mollecules, animals ..etc right? Otherwise how would they function? Think of a snowflake. Have you ever seen one under a microscope? They're quite fascinating. Only God could have designed and worked out something like that. Or an intelligent designer at any rate. Scientists caht figure out who or what makes up a snowflake but, we know.

Radagast · Jul 28, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Well apparently if Arminians believe in the sovreignty of God

But Arminians don't (not in the sense that Calvinists use the term). That's the whole point.

Neostarwcc said:
Arminians believe in free will.

Calvinists believe in compatibilist free will, and Arminians believe in libertarian free will.

Neostarwcc said:
That's where we differ but if you think of God's sovreignty of everything else we're not all that much different since we both believe in total sovreignty.

Arminians deny that God is sovereign over the actions of human beings, or over anything that may have been influenced by the actions of human beings.

I'm trying to understand this part of Arminianism

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