What happened to the Christianity that gave us the Holy Roman Empire...

nolidad · Jul 28, 2020

Root of Jesse said:
The point is "firstborn" does not mean that there is a second or more.

I Agree that that can be the case. But Scripture names four brothers and at least two sisters of jesus! There is no reason other than defending a man made tradition to say they are the step brothers and sisters of Jesus! We have no Scripture nor even reliable extracanonical writings that say Joseph was married prior!

Root of Jesse said:
Word definition has nothing to do with grammar. "You can't go out to play until you've finished your homework" does not prove that the subject did finish his homework.

False analogy! The bible in todays language says this for this verse:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

To use your analogy- We cannot prove Mary had her firstborn! See the Firstborn being born is the key for Joseph for having sex with Mary!

So in todays English we would say: Joseph did not have sex with Mary until she gave birth to her first born child! So the until is Mary giving birth- if she did not give birth, then I would agree with you that Joseph di dnot have sex with Mary!

This is really basic grammar!

Root of Jesse said:
Where does it say that? I would wager a great deal that @prodromos has read the Bible multiple times...

John 7:
4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

I rest my case!

Root of Jesse said:
You do not know what Mary did not do. According the the Protoevangelium of St. James, yes, she didn't make the vow, but her parents, having been childless their entire marriage, made a vow to present a child to the service of the temple. We know these things because we know who the pupils of the apostles, who knew the Lord and His family, were.

Well then Mary's parents did not keep that alleged vow! For Mary was not devoted to temple service!

Root of Jesse said:
Exactly proving the point. When Jesus was dying on the cross, Jesus passed care of Mary to John, which means that there were no other siblings. And you're right, if Jesus had bretheren at all, they would have been bound to care for Mary, because her husband was dead. That they were not bound to do so means that Mary had no children but Jesus.

doesn't prove your point at all! His brethren did not believe nor follow Jesus. He was preparing to inaugarate the church in 50 days. So He gave His mother (whom he did not call her mother but woman) to His brethren spiritually! YOu are looking at a first century situation with God the Son with a 21st century mindset.

Root of Jesse said:
But Matthew wasn't written in today's English.

to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1. to become known
to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
1. to understand
2. to know
Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
to become acquainted with, to know

Here is the Hebrew:

4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Transliteration
yada`
Pronunciation
yä·dah' know (645x), known (105x), knowledge (19x), perceive (18x), shew (17x), tell (8x), wist (7x), understand (7x), certainly (7x), acknowledge (6x), acquaintance (6x), consider (6x), declare (6x), teach (5x), miscellaneous (85x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

to know
1. (Qal)
  1. to know
    1. to know, learn to know
    2. to perceive
    3. to perceive and see, find out and discern
    4. to discriminate, distinguish
    5. to know by experience
    6. to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess
    7. to consider
  2. to know, be acquainted with
  3. to know (a person carnally)
  4. to know how, be skilful in
  5. to have knowledge, be wise
2. (Niphal)
  1. to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
  2. to make oneself known
  3. to be perceived
  4. to be instructed
3. (Piel) to cause to know
4. (Poal) to cause to know
5. (Pual)
  1. to be known
  2. known, one known, acquaintance (participle)
6. (Hiphil) to make known, declare

So I think you are trying ot say that all the knowing of the bible produced a whole lot os sexless births then! C'mon man are you that benighted or just playing a game?

nolidad · Jul 28, 2020

Root of Jesse said:
I already did prove that they were not Mary's children.

Proof requires evidence, not speculation and supposition and untested hypotheses!

The bible calls them Jesus' brethren and sisters and the Bible declares that Joseph commenced having sex with Mary after Jesus was born! That is empirical evidence and not some speculation.

Root of Jesse said:
You have shown that you don't understand your Catholicism. So based on what the Baltimore Catechism has to say about it, you're wrong.

Well I can't speak of todays Catechism. I now what I and all my peers were taught in the 50's and 60's pre vatican 2.

Root of Jesse said:
God made Mary something she was not. The mother of God...

So you are saying that Jesus divinity was infused in HIm after His conception? Mary did give birth to Jesus! But as she was not divine, she could not give Jesus any divinity! And that has nothing to do with Her having other children and having sex with her husband as the Bible says she did!

Root of Jesse said:
What you don't know is that this was not the vow. The vow was made by her parents, and Mary would honor God's commandments to a tee. By honoring her parents and serving as a temple maiden until she became a woman, she was consecrated to God. You may not know that once you do such a consecration, it cannot be withdrawn.

So then all you need do is show that Mary's parents made such a vow! And show from the Torah where once she reached the age she could marry (once she strated menstruating) she was freed from the vow her parents made!

YOu made a big deal of first her, then her parents making a vow! So show they did!

Root of Jesse said:
Says the guy who said quoting Scripture was vomit...

I corrected you once! If I have to correct you again, it is you deliberately with malice bearing false witness!

Root of Jesse said:
But, also in Jewish culture, a temple maiden, when she had her first period, became unclean and unfit to serve in the temple. But having taken the vow, she would need a guardian. That's Joseph, for Mary.

So show that from the torah! and then show that Joseph married her to be a guardian instead of wife!
I know the law provided for kinsmen redeemer, but Joseph was not a kinsmen of Mary!

Root of Jesse said:
Word definition has nothing to do with grammar. "You can't go out to play until you've finished your homework" does not prove that the subject did finish his homework.

I need to bring this false argument up again! YOu are right. This statement standing by itself does not prove that the child went out ot play or finish his homework!

Matthew 1:25 says Joseph did not have sex with Mary UNTIL she gave birth to her firstborn (Jesus).

Sex = playing outside, the firstborn= finishing your homework in your analogy!

So if MARY DID NOT GIVE BIRTH TO JESUS THEN THE CONDITION until COMES INTO PLAY AND HE DID NOT HAVE SEX. But Mary did give birth to Jesus so the condition UNTIL was met and Jospeh had sex with Mary! Don't believe me- bring this to an English teacher and learn 3rd grade grammar!

Root of Jesse said:
You were told by sisters and priests that it was serious in order for you to keep the practice. In fact, you were lied to. You were not told why the practice is done. You were probably not told why it's a sin to have sex before marriage, either. You were just told it was wrong. I will admit that the way it was conveyed was imprecise, but other than that, I know how it was. I'm 64, myself.

So my diocese and the Cardinals' area of rule were all lying to us? Was the Baltimore Catechism we learned from intentionally rewritten? also the big to do about meat being allowed on Fridays after Vatican 2 was all a show?

Actually we were told why from our catechism lessons why sex before marriage was wrong!

Root of Jesse said:
The ones sitting collecting dust? That there isn't unanimity among them means little. Some didn't think about it at all.

Well I use them as I need them. but yes some didn't even mention it! I also take the writings with a careful read. The second and thrid centuries saw many heretical writings that made it into the 30 volume set.

Root of Jesse said:
Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, and the Fridays of Lent are not all Fridays. And yes, on those days, to eat meat is a mortal sin. We were talking about every Friday. That's a practice, a discipline. But mortal sins are sins for everyone. There's no exemptions. I've already shown what constitutes a mortal sin, and the fact that there are exemptions shows that it's not.

Well you can tell the sisters and priest if they are alive! Missing mass on Sundays was a mortal sin, but they had exemptions for that as well! So your argument is a red herring!

Root of Jesse · Jul 28, 2020

nolidad said:
I would prefer to use a word like vomit, than alter the words of SCripture like you have to try to defend the perpetual virginity of Mary! Whose is the greatest vulgarity?

I didn't see any alteration of Scripture. But you will never find in Scripture that Mary had other children. That Jesus had brothers and sisters is not the same thing as Mary had other children than Jesus. And, as I have already shown, those named children are the children of other women. Therefore, it is not a stretch to hold Mary as perpetually virgin. You can speculate all you want, and claim that what you believe is Scriptural, but it is simply you putting your spin on what Scripture says and doesn't say. And it does not ever say Mary had other children.

Root of Jesse · Jul 28, 2020

nolidad said:
I Agree that that can be the case. But Scripture names four brothers and at least two sisters of jesus! There is no reason other than defending a man made tradition to say they are the step brothers and sisters of Jesus! We have no Scripture nor even reliable extracanonical writings that say Joseph was married prior!

Brothers of Jesus does not equate to children of Mary.

False analogy! The bible in todays language says this for this verse:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

To use your analogy- We cannot prove Mary had her firstborn! See the Firstborn being born is the key for Joseph for having sex with Mary!

So in todays English we would say: Joseph did not have sex with Mary until she gave birth to her first born child! So the until is Mary giving birth- if she did not give birth, then I would agree with you that Joseph di dnot have sex with Mary!

This is really basic grammar!

Again, we can't go by today's English. Jesus spoke ancient Aramaic, and Matthew wrote in Hebrew, and maybe Greek. Ancient Koine Greek. We also have Mary asking the archangel Gabriel how she could have a child since "I know not man". The way it is written, Mary was a virgin, and planned to be a virgin forever.

John 7:
4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

I rest my case!

Nice! You got one right.

Well then Mary's parents did not keep that alleged vow! For Mary was not devoted to temple service!

You're wrong, according the the Protoevangelium.
This school of Temple virgins in Jerusalem formed an altar guild that fulfilled the necessary tasks at the Temple. This included sewing and creating vestments, washing the vestments of the priests which would be stained regularly by animal blood, preparing liturgical linen, weaving the veil of the Temple, and most importantly, liturgical prayer. The Jewish and Catholic tradition holds that this school for Israelite virgins was completed by marrying age of about 14 and that they were dismissed at this time. There were also older women, perhaps widows such as the prophetess Anna, who served as teachers and governesses for the virgins under their care.

There has been some doubt as to whether their were really consecreated Jewish virgins at the Temple. The first-century Jewish historian Josephus supports the existence of “Temple virgins” in Jerusalem, he mentions cloisters, but he does not tell us who lived in them. That’s as close as Josephus gets.

There are, however, three Scriptural accounts that are used to demonstrate that there were special women who ministered at the Temple complex.

Exodus 38:8 mentions women who “watch (צָבָא) at the door of the tabernacle.”

The second is in 1 Samuel:

“Now Heli was very old, and he heard all that his sons did to all Israel: and how they lay with the women that waited (צָבָא) at the door of the tabernacle:” (1 Samuel 2:22, D-R)

In both of the verses above, Hebrew verb for “watch” and “waited” is the same. It is the Hebrew word צָבָא, which is the same verb used to described the liturgical activity of the Levites (see Num 4:23; 8:24). This corresponds to the Latin translation in the Clementine Vulgate, which relates that these women “observant” at the temple doors – another liturgical reading.

So these women are not simply hanging out around the Temple, looking for men, gossiping, or chatting about the weather. These are pious women devoted to a liturgical function. In fact, the Court of Women might exist formally for these special “liturgical women.”

The third and final reference to these liturgical females is in 2 Maccabees:

And the virgins also that were shut up, came forth, some to {High Priest} Onias, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows. And all holding up their hands towards heaven, made supplication. (2 Macc 3:19-20)

Here are virgins that are shut up. In the Greek it is “αἱ δὲ κατάκλειστοι τῶν παρθένων” or “the shut up ones of the virgins.” In this passage the Holy Spirit refers not to all the virgins of Jerusalem, but to a special set of virgins, that is, those virgins who had the privilege and right to be in the presence of the High Priest and address him. It’s rather ridiculous to think that young girls would have general access to the High Priest of Israel. However, if these virgins had a special liturgical role at the Temple, it becomes clear that they would both address the High Priest Onias and would also be featured as an essential part of the intense supplication in the Temple at this moment of crisis.

There is further testimony of temple virgins in the traditions of the Jews. In the Mishnah, it is recorded that there were 82 consecrated virgins who wove the veil of the Temple:

“The veil of the Temple was a palm-length in width. It was woven with seventy-two smooth stitches each made of twenty-four threads. The length was of forty cubits and the width of twenty cubits. Eighty-two virgins wove it. Two veils were made each year and three hundred priests were needed to carry it to the pool” (Mishna Sheqalim 8, 5).

We also find another reference to this Temple Virgins who “weave linen and silk threads with gold from Ophir, and who are bidden now to cast their work into the flames,” are the women who made the veils for the Temple” (Ketubot 106a). Here we also learn that these virgins lived in the three-storey building inside the Temple area. However, it is difficult to find any other details about this structure. The visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich placed the cloisters of the Temple Virgins on the north side of the Temple.

In the Talmud, it records how when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in AD 70, the Temple virgins leapt into the flames so as not to be abducted by the heathen soldiers: “the virgins who were weaving threw themselves in the flames” (Pesiqta Rabbati 26, 6).

Even more, the first century document by the name of the Apocalypse of Baruch (sometimes called “2 Baruch”) describes the Temple virgins living in the Temple as weavers of the holy veil:

“And you virgins who weave byssus and silk, and gold from Ophir, in haste pick it all up and throw it in the fire that it will return it to its Author, and that the flame will take it back to its Creator, from fear that the enemy might seize it” (2 Baruch 10:19).

So then, there is ample evidence for the role of consecrated women, especially virgins at the Temple. If one were to accept the passages above, we have plenty of testimony for cultic women in the time of Moses’ tabernacle, in the time of David, in the Second Temple era, and in the first century of Our Lord.

This substantiates the claims of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church who claim that the Blessed Virgin Mary was presented to the Temple and served there from the age of three until the age of fourteen. To claim that Temple virgins are a myth of celibacy-crazed Catholic bishops does not hold up. Scripture and Jewish tradition records that there were specially commissioned virgins associated with the Temple. We may not know much about them, but we know that they existed.

That the most holy human girl of all time, the Mother of the Messiah, should live as a temple virgin should come as no surprise. This also accounts for the vow of virginity she had taken since she “knew not a man” even though she was already espoused to Joseph.

doesn't prove your point at all! His brethren did not believe nor follow Jesus. He was preparing to inaugarate the church in 50 days. So He gave His mother (whom he did not call her mother but woman) to His brethren spiritually! YOu are looking at a first century situation with God the Son with a 21st century mindset.

Whether they believed he was God or not, they would have been obligated to care for their mother. He called Mary "woman" because she was sinless. Remember, Eve was "woman" before she sinned, too.

So are you questioning the translation by even your catholic translators then????

Here is the greek:

Deleted because of excess length of post...

So I think you are trying ot say that all the knowing of the bible produced a whole lot os sexless births then! C'mon man are you that benighted or just playing a game?

I am writing specifically about Mary. You believe she was just one of the characters in the Bible, I believe she was the holiest woman ever, always virgin, ever pure. That's all.

Root of Jesse · Jul 28, 2020

nolidad said:
Proof requires evidence, not speculation and supposition and untested hypotheses!

Pot, meet kettle. You can't show me anywhere it says Mary's other children.

The bible calls them Jesus' brethren and sisters and the Bible declares that Joseph commenced having sex with Mary after Jesus was born! That is empirical evidence and not some speculation.

It does not say that Joseph had sex with Mary.

Well I can't speak of todays Catechism. I now what I and all my peers were taught in the 50's and 60's pre vatican 2.

The Baltimore Catechism is what I quoted. Today's Catechism concurs.

So you are saying that Jesus divinity was infused in HIm after His conception? Mary did give birth to Jesus! But as she was not divine, she could not give Jesus any divinity! And that has nothing to do with Her having other children and having sex with her husband as the Bible says she did!

Not at all. But women do not give birth to natures. Jesus had a divine nature, and a human nature, but he was a Divine Person. Jesus is God, Mary gave birth to Jesus, so Mother of God, or more precisely God-bearer, is appropriate.

So then all you need do is show that Mary's parents made such a vow! And show from the Torah where once she reached the age she could marry (once she strated menstruating) she was freed from the vow her parents made!

See my previous post about the existence of consecrated virgins. The Protoevangelium speaks of the vow. We believe that Mary embraced the vow and intended to live her life that way.

YOu made a big deal of first her, then her parents making a vow! So show they did!

The conception of Mary and her consecration vow, from the Protoevangelium:
3. And gazing towards the Heavens, she saw a sparrow's nest in the laurel tree, and made a lamentation in herself, saying: Alas! who begot me? and what womb produced me? because I have become a curse in the presence of the sons of Israel, and I have been reproached, and they have driven me in derision out of the Temple of the Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the birds of the heavens because even the birds of the heavens are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like the beasts of the earth, because even the beasts of the earth are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like these waters, because even these waters are productive before Thee, O Lord. Alas! to what have I been likened? I am not like this earth, because even the earth brings forth its fruits in season, and blesses Thee, O Lord.
4. And, behold, an Angel of the Lord stood by, saying: Anna, Anna, the Lord has heard your prayer, and you will conceive, and will give birth; and your seed will be spoken of in all the world. And Anna said: As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God; and it shall minister to Him in holy things all the days of its life. And, behold, two Angels came, saying to her: Behold, Joachim your husband is coming with his flocks. For an Angel of the Lord went down to him, saying: Joachim, Joachim, the Lord God has heard your prayer. Go down from here; for, behold, your wife Anna shall conceive. And Joachim went down and called his shepherds, saying: Bring to me ten ewes without spot or blemish, and they shall be for the Lord my God; and bring me twelve tender calves, and they shall be for the priests and the elders; and a hundred goats for all the people. And, behold, Joachim came with his flocks; and Anna stood by the gate, and saw Joachim coming, and she ran and hung upon his neck, saying: Now I know that the Lord God has blessed me exceedingly; for, behold the widow is no longer a widow, and I the childless shall conceive. And Joachim rested the first day in his house.
5. And on the following day he brought his offerings, saying within himself: If the Lord God has been gracious to me, the plate on the priest's forehead will make it manifest to me. And Joachim brought his offerings, and observed attentively the priest's plate when he went up to the Altar of the Lord, and he saw no sin in himself. And Joachim said: Now I know that the Lord has been gracious unto me, and has forgiven all my sins. And he went down from the Temple of the Lord justified, and departed to his own house. And her months were fulfilled, and in the ninth month Anna gave birth. And she said to the midwife: What have I brought forth? and she said: A girl. And Anna said: My soul has been magnified this day. And she laid her down. And the days having been fulfilled, Anna was purified, and she nursed the child, and gave her the name, Mary.
6. And the child grew strong day by day; and when she was six months old, her mother set her on the ground to see if she could stand, and she walked seven steps and came into her bosom; and she snatched her up, saying: As the Lord my God lives, you shall not walk on this earth until I bring you into the Temple of the Lord. And she made a sanctuary in her bed-chamber, and allowed nothing common or unclean to pass through her. And she called the undefiled daughters of the Hebrews, and they took care of her. And when she was a year old, Joachim made a great feast, and invited the priests, and the scribes, and the elders, and all the people of Israel. And Joachim brought the child to the priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God of our Fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be remembered in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God Most High, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever. And her mother snatched her up, and took her into the sanctuary of her bed-chamber, and nursed her. And Anna made a song to the Lord God, saying: I will sing a song to the Lord my God, for He has looked upon me, and has taken away the reproach of mine enemies; and the Lord has given the fruit of His righteousness, singular in its kind, and richly endowed before Him. Who will tell the sons of Rubim that Anna is nursing a child? Hear, hear, ye twelve tribes of Israel, that Anna is nursing a child. And she laid her to rest in the bed-chamber of her sanctuary, and went out and served them. And when the supper was ended, they went down rejoicing, and glorifying the God of Israel.
7. And months were added to the child. When the child was two years old, Joachim said: Let us take her up to the Temple of the Lord, that we may pay the vow that we have vowed, lest perchance the Lord send to us, and our offering be not received. And Anna said: Let us wait for the third year, in order that the child may not seek for father or mother. And Joachim said: So let us wait. And the child was three years old, and Joachim said: Invite the daughters of the Hebrews that are undefiled, and let them each take a lamp, and let them stand with the lamps burning, that the child may not turn back, and her heart be turned away from the Temple of the Lord. And they did so until they went up into the Temple of the Lord. And the priest received her, and kissed her, and blessed her, saying: “The Lord has magnified your name in all generations. In you, in the last days, the Lord will manifest His redemption to the sons of Israel.” And he set her down upon the third step of the Altar, and the Lord God sent grace upon her; and she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her.
The nature of Joseph:
9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the Virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.
17. And there was an order from the Emperor Augustus, that all in Bethlehem of Judea should be enrolled. And Joseph said: I shall enroll my sons, but what shall I do with this maiden? How shall I enroll her? As my wife? I am ashamed. As my daughter then? But all the sons of Israel know that she is not my daughter. The day of the Lord shall itself bring it to pass as the Lord will. And he saddled the ass, and set her upon it; and his son led it, and Joseph followed. And when they had come within three miles, Joseph turned and saw her sorrowful; and he said to himself: Likely that which is in her distresses her. And again Joseph turned and saw her laughing. And he said to her: Mary, how is it that I see in thy face at one time laughter, at another sorrow? And Mary said to Joseph: Because I see two peoples with my eyes; the one weeping and lamenting, and the other rejoicing and exulting. And they came into the middle of the road, and Mary said to him: Take me down from off the ass, for that which is in me presses to come forth. And he took her down from off the ass, and said to her: Whither shall I lead thee, and cover thy disgrace? for the place is desert.
18. And he found a cave there, and led her into it; and leaving his two sons beside her, he went out to seek a midwife in the district of Bethlehem. And I Joseph was walking, and was not walking; and I looked up into the sky, and saw the sky astonished; and I looked up to the pole of the heavens, and saw it standing, and the birds of the air keeping still. And I looked down upon the earth, and saw a trough lying, and work-people reclining: and their hands were in the trough. And those that were eating did not eat, and those that were rising did not carry it up, and those that were conveying anything to their mouths did not convey it; but the faces of all were looking upwards. And I saw the sheep walking, and the sheep stood still; and the shepherd raised his hand to strike them, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the current of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids resting on the water and not drinking, and all things in a moment were driven from their course.
19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit. And the midwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things -- because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

I corrected you once! If I have to correct you again, it is you deliberately with malice bearing false witness!

So show that from the torah! and then show that Joseph married her to be a guardian instead of wife!
I know the law provided for kinsmen redeemer, but Joseph was not a kinsmen of Mary!

I need to bring this false argument up again! YOu are right. This statement standing by itself does not prove that the child went out ot play or finish his homework!

Matthew 1:25 says Joseph did not have sex with Mary UNTIL she gave birth to her firstborn (Jesus).

Sex = playing outside, the firstborn= finishing your homework in your analogy!

So if MARY DID NOT GIVE BIRTH TO JESUS THEN THE CONDITION until COMES INTO PLAY AND HE DID NOT HAVE SEX. But Mary did give birth to Jesus so the condition UNTIL was met and Jospeh had sex with Mary! Don't believe me- bring this to an English teacher and learn 3rd grade grammar!

See above. Again, it is not an official document, but it is quite detailed. Written less than 100 years after the death of Jesus.

So my diocese and the Cardinals' area of rule were all lying to us? Was the Baltimore Catechism we learned from intentionally rewritten? also the big to do about meat being allowed on Fridays after Vatican 2 was all a show?

I quoted the Baltimore Catechism above. It does not say that it was mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays, except during Lent. I also quoted the Baltimore Catechism about 'limbo'.

Actually we were told why from our catechism lessons why sex before marriage was wrong!

So, then, why is it wrong?

Well I use them as I need them. but yes some didn't even mention it! I also take the writings with a careful read. The second and thrid centuries saw many heretical writings that made it into the 30 volume set.

Yes, but those are not official to Catholicism. Your 30 volume set seems to be more than what we hold true.

Well you can tell the sisters and priest if they are alive! Missing mass on Sundays was a mortal sin, but they had exemptions for that as well! So your argument is a red herring![/QUOTE]

nolidad · Jul 28, 2020

Root of Jesse said:
I didn't see any alteration of Scripture. But you will never find in Scripture that Mary had other children. That Jesus had brothers and sisters is not the same thing as Mary had other children than Jesus. And, as I have already shown, those named children are the children of other women. Therefore, it is not a stretch to hold Mary as perpetually virgin. You can speculate all you want, and claim that what you believe is Scriptural, but it is simply you putting your spin on what Scripture says and doesn't say. And it does not ever say Mary had other children.

Well tehn all you need do is show that Joseph was much older than Mary, had a previous wife with which he had at least six kids.

No it is you who speculate!

1. You speculate that the named brothers of Jesus are not really brothers.
2. Now you speculate that Joseph had multiple wives.
3. YOu speculate that because you speculate that these brothers and sisters of Jesus are actually not even brothers and sisters , therefore it proves Mary was perpetually virgin, despite the clear verse in Scripture that says Joseph waited till Jesus was born to have sex with his wife!
4. You speculate at first that Mary took a vow to be a temple maiden.
5. Then you speculated that it was her parents that made the vow to make her a temple maiden!
6. Then you speculate that it was common Jewish practice for girls to be temple maidens only until they menstruate (and the law says they are only ceremonially defiled only during th etime of their discharge!)
7. Well, I didnt want to do this, but there is no evidence that Israel ever had temple virgins! In fact their practices and the law concerning temple worship speak explicitly against it! Women were not allowed past teh court of teh women in the temple. They could not enter the court of teh Jews, the holy Place and the most Hily Place. Even i n Synaggogue they could not enter the synagogue proper while men were there. Even the Catholic theologian who defends this concept provides no writings that prove Israel had a group of women called temple maidens.

Root of Jesse · Jul 28, 2020

nolidad said:
Well tehn all you need do is show that Joseph was much older than Mary, had a previous wife with which he had at least six kids.

Read what I wrote above, from the Protoevangelium of James.

No it is you who speculate!

1. You speculate that the named brothers of Jesus are not really brothers.

It's not speculation, understanding of Hebrew.

2. Now you speculate that Joseph had multiple wives.

A previous wife. He was a widow.

3. YOu speculate that because you speculate that these brothers and sisters of Jesus are actually not even brothers and sisters , therefore it proves Mary was perpetually virgin, despite the clear verse in Scripture that says Joseph waited till Jesus was born to have sex with his wife!

It is your speculation that it means that, because Joseph didn't have sex with her before she got pregnant, that he did so afterward. Again, read the Protoevangelium.

4. You speculate at first that Mary took a vow to be a temple maiden.

Again, read the Protoevangelium.

5. Then you speculated that it was her parents that made the vow to make her a temple maiden!

Again, read the Protoevangelium.

6. Then you speculate that it was common Jewish practice for girls to be temple maidens only until they menstruate (and the law says they are only ceremonially defiled only during th etime of their discharge!)

Again, read the Protoevangelium.

7. Well, I didnt want to do this, but there is no evidence that Israel ever had temple virgins! In fact their practices and the law concerning temple worship speak explicitly against it! Women were not allowed past teh court of teh women in the temple. They could not enter the court of teh Jews, the holy Place and the most Hily Place. Even i n Synaggogue they could not enter the synagogue proper while men were there. Even the Catholic theologian who defends this concept provides no writings that prove Israel had a group of women called temple maidens.

There's a lot that you're missing. I quoted Scriptural evidence of temple maidens already. But here it is again:
This school of Temple virgins in Jerusalem formed an altar guild that fulfilled the necessary tasks at the Temple. This included sewing and creating vestments, washing the vestments of the priests which would be stained regularly by animal blood, preparing liturgical linen, weaving the veil of the Temple, and most importantly, liturgical prayer. The Jewish and Catholic tradition holds that this school for Israelite virgins was completed by marrying age of about 14 and that they were dismissed at this time. There were also older women, perhaps widows such as the prophetess Anna, who served as teachers and governesses for the virgins under their care.

There has been some doubt as to whether their were really consecreated Jewish virgins at the Temple. The first-century Jewish historian Josephus supports the existence of “Temple virgins” in Jerusalem, he mentions cloisters, but he does not tell us who lived in them. That’s as close as Josephus gets.

There are, however, three Scriptural accounts that are used to demonstrate that there were special women who ministered at the Temple complex.

Exodus 38:8 mentions women who “watch (צָבָא) at the door of the tabernacle.”

The second is in 1 Samuel:

“Now Heli was very old, and he heard all that his sons did to all Israel: and how they lay with the women that waited (צָבָא) at the door of the tabernacle:” (1 Samuel 2:22, D-R)

In both of the verses above, Hebrew verb for “watch” and “waited” is the same. It is the Hebrew word צָבָא, which is the same verb used to described the liturgical activity of the Levites (see Num 4:23; 8:24). This corresponds to the Latin translation in the Clementine Vulgate, which relates that these women “observant” at the temple doors – another liturgical reading.

So these women are not simply hanging out around the Temple, looking for men, gossiping, or chatting about the weather. These are pious women devoted to a liturgical function. In fact, the Court of Women might exist formally for these special “liturgical women.”

The third and final reference to these liturgical females is in 2 Maccabees:

And the virgins also that were shut up, came forth, some to {High Priest} Onias, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows. And all holding up their hands towards heaven, made supplication. (2 Macc 3:19-20)

Here are virgins that are shut up. In the Greek it is “αἱ δὲ κατάκλειστοι τῶν παρθένων” or “the shut up ones of the virgins.” In this passage the Holy Spirit refers not to all the virgins of Jerusalem, but to a special set of virgins, that is, those virgins who had the privilege and right to be in the presence of the High Priest and address him. It’s rather ridiculous to think that young girls would have general access to the High Priest of Israel. However, if these virgins had a special liturgical role at the Temple, it becomes clear that they would both address the High Priest Onias and would also be featured as an essential part of the intense supplication in the Temple at this moment of crisis.

There is further testimony of temple virgins in the traditions of the Jews. In the Mishnah, it is recorded that there were 82 consecrated virgins who wove the veil of the Temple:

“The veil of the Temple was a palm-length in width. It was woven with seventy-two smooth stitches each made of twenty-four threads. The length was of forty cubits and the width of twenty cubits. Eighty-two virgins wove it. Two veils were made each year and three hundred priests were needed to carry it to the pool” (Mishna Sheqalim 8, 5).

We also find another reference to this Temple Virgins who “weave linen and silk threads with gold from Ophir, and who are bidden now to cast their work into the flames,” are the women who made the veils for the Temple” (Ketubot 106a). Here we also learn that these virgins lived in the three-storey building inside the Temple area. However, it is difficult to find any other details about this structure. The visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich placed the cloisters of the Temple Virgins on the north side of the Temple.

In the Talmud, it records how when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in AD 70, the Temple virgins leapt into the flames so as not to be abducted by the heathen soldiers: “the virgins who were weaving threw themselves in the flames” (Pesiqta Rabbati 26, 6).

Even more, the first century document by the name of the Apocalypse of Baruch (sometimes called “2 Baruch”) describes the Temple virgins living in the Temple as weavers of the holy veil:

“And you virgins who weave byssus and silk, and gold from Ophir, in haste pick it all up and throw it in the fire that it will return it to its Author, and that the flame will take it back to its Creator, from fear that the enemy might seize it” (2 Baruch 10:19).

So then, there is ample evidence for the role of consecrated women, especially virgins at the Temple. If one were to accept the passages above, we have plenty of testimony for cultic women in the time of Moses’ tabernacle, in the time of David, in the Second Temple era, and in the first century of Our Lord.

This substantiates the claims of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church who claim that the Blessed Virgin Mary was presented to the Temple and served there from the age of three until the age of fourteen.

Root of Jesse · Jul 28, 2020

nolidad said:
Well tehn all you need do is show that Joseph was much older than Mary, had a previous wife with which he had at least six kids.

No it is you who speculate!

1. You speculate that the named brothers of Jesus are not really brothers.
2. Now you speculate that Joseph had multiple wives.
3. YOu speculate that because you speculate that these brothers and sisters of Jesus are actually not even brothers and sisters , therefore it proves Mary was perpetually virgin, despite the clear verse in Scripture that says Joseph waited till Jesus was born to have sex with his wife!
4. You speculate at first that Mary took a vow to be a temple maiden.
5. Then you speculated that it was her parents that made the vow to make her a temple maiden!
6. Then you speculate that it was common Jewish practice for girls to be temple maidens only until they menstruate (and the law says they are only ceremonially defiled only during th etime of their discharge!)
7. Well, I didnt want to do this, but there is no evidence that Israel ever had temple virgins! In fact their practices and the law concerning temple worship speak explicitly against it! Women were not allowed past teh court of teh women in the temple. They could not enter the court of teh Jews, the holy Place and the most Hily Place. Even i n Synaggogue they could not enter the synagogue proper while men were there. Even the Catholic theologian who defends this concept provides no writings that prove Israel had a group of women called temple maidens.

Yo your last point, you're right, they couldn't enter the Holy of Holies. But that was the first Temple, where the Ark of the Covenant was before Jeremiah hid it. The second temple had a Holy of Holies, but it was empty. There is speculation that Mary actually went into the Holy of Holies, but that is speculation. You're also probably right that they couldn't enter the temple when men were there, but of course, that's immaterial. Their job was sewing and cleaning of vestments, basically.

nolidad · Jul 28, 2020

Root of Jesse said:
Again, we can't go by today's English. Jesus spoke ancient Aramaic, and Matthew wrote in Hebrew, and maybe Greek. Ancient Koine Greek. We also have Mary asking the archangel Gabriel how she could have a child since "I know not man". The way it is written, Mary was a virgin, and planned to be a virgin forever.

You are wrong!

Here is the verse
Luke 1:34
King James Version
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the verb "know", is in the present active indicative which simply means she was simply stating she had not had sex with any man yet! If she wanted to remain a virgin it would have not been in the present but in the perfect!

Root of Jesse said:
It does not say that Joseph had sex with Mary.

so then Cain, ABel, Seth and a whole lot of other kids born because the husbands "knew" their wives are all virgin births! OKay glad we got that all straightened out!

Root of Jesse said:
The Baltimore Catechism is what I quoted. Today's Catechism concurs.

Are you quoting the 1950's ba;ltimore? or some post vatican 2 version.

Remember prior to Vatican 2 no protestant could ever get to heaven either! I remember Pius XII and john XXIII saying so!

Root of Jesse said:
See above. Again, it is not an official document, but it is quite detailed. Written less than 100 years after the death of Jesus.

So the writer borrowed from other writings! The book of Mormon is quite detailed as well! so aren't the gospel of Mary, the gospel of Thomas, the apocalypse of Peter but they are not accepted as authoritative either! So the strongest evidence thatRome has to promulgate a doctrine binding on all Catholics and has created a whole host of titles for Mary is based on a gospel written 100 years after jesus death and even Rome doesn't consider it official?

Root of Jesse said:
Yes, but those are not official to Catholicism. Your 30 volume set seems to be more than what we hold true.

Well they are the collected writings that exist from church leaders up to the Nicene Council! That is why it is called the writings of the ante-nicene Fathers. Which is sad that Rome doesn't hol;d them true! These are writings (both herwetical and non heretical) that trace teh hisotry of the struggles of teh early church!

Root of Jesse said:
So, then, why is it wrong?

I take it you ask this rhetorically but God created sex to be done between a husband and wife alone!

Root of Jesse said:
Well you can tell the sisters and priest if they are alive! Missing mass on Sundays was a mortal sin, but they had exemptions for that as well! So your argument is a red herring!

No response to this mortal sin that isn't a mortal sin under certain circumstances? But mortal and venial sins are a topic for another thread!

Root of Jesse · Jul 28, 2020

nolidad said:
You are wrong!

Here is the verse
Luke 1:34
King James Version
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the verb "know", is in the present active indicative which simply means she was simply stating she had not had sex with any man yet! If she wanted to remain a virgin it would have not been in the present but in the perfect!

The grammar used conveys that Mary would never have sex with a man. IT is a denial of her participating in sexual relations at all, and supported by the narrative of the Protoevangelium of James.

so then Cain, ABel, Seth and a whole lot of other kids born because the husbands "knew" their wives are all virgin births! OKay glad we got that all straightened out!

Where does it say, positively, that Joseph knew Mary? It only says that he knew her not until she gave birth, which does not mean that he knew her after she gave birth.

Are you quoting the 1950's ba;ltimore? or some post vatican 2 version.

Remember prior to Vatican 2 no protestant could ever get to heaven either! I remember Pius XII and john XXIII saying so!

To my knowledge, the Baltimore Catechism is the Baltimore Catechism, written in a question and answer format. There is no post-Vatican II version. Regarding your second statement,
for the record, the Catholic Church has never officially said anyone is in Hell.Prior to Vatican II some individuals in the Church held to an erroneous understanding of Church doctrine. The Church teaches and has always taught: “Outside the Church there is no Salvation.”

That is to be understood as meaning the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ Himself. As such, it is in, and through the Church, that it is possible for men to be saved. The Church is the Body of Christ and therefore Christ acts in and through His Body.

That said, were it not for the Church, there would be no Salvation; with that we recognize that there is one Baptism and one Church. Even Protestants are Catholics, in an imperfect way. They are called by the Holy Spirit to continue to pursue the truth. Of course, they would deny this but, the fact is, a Protestant is simply a Protesting Catholic.

Returning to your question, some people misunderstood this doctrine and took it to mean one had to be a card carrying Catholic in order to have a chance of being saved. Well, the Church has never taught that, either, and will never teach that any particular person will go to Hell.

Hell was made for satan and his demons, not for people. Some people will go there, but we don't know whom. At best, we can think or speculate that Judas Iscariot who betrayed Christ went to Hell, or Hitler, or Stalin. There are some texts in the book of Acts that seem to imply that Judas was condemned, but the Church has never officially said this.

The Catholic Church is the same Church: pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II. Vatican II didn't change anything we believe. It couldn't if it wanted to. The doctrines of the Church may develop, but in the process, they never negate anything that was previously believed. Again, it's important to distinguish between actual doctrines and theological opinions some may have held.

At any rate, the Church can't go back to Pre-Vatican II era because it didn't go anywhere to begin with. Now, there were changes in practice. For instance:

the Western Church or Latin Rite stopped requiring the Mass to be said in Latin.
the priest started facing the people instead of the altar

but these aren't doctrinal changes. They are disciplines and, in that respect, there are some who still enjoy the old disciplines, some of which are being restored, but not across the board.

For instance, the Latin Tridentine Mass is offered in every diocese but it's considered extraordinary. You won't find it in every parish. There is also a movement to restore a sense of tradition, majesty, and reverence during the Liturgy and that's pretty much a good thing.

For close to fifty years, there has been a lot of uncalled for and unauthorized experimentation, but Vatican II never authorized those changes. They were abuses. A bunch of people decided they could go crazy and change anything they wanted to.

So the writer borrowed from other writings! The book of Mormon is quite detailed as well! so aren't the gospel of Mary, the gospel of Thomas, the apocalypse of Peter but they are not accepted as authoritative either! So the strongest evidence thatRome has to promulgate a doctrine binding on all Catholics and has created a whole host of titles for Mary is based on a gospel written 100 years after jesus death and even Rome doesn't consider it official?

Do you realize that the Bible also refers to non-Biblical resources? Secondly, I have said definitively that this is non-authoritative, but just as the gospels were written years after Jesus died, the information in the Protoevangelium of James was, too. The Protoevangelium of James speaks volumes of what was believed in the Early Church, which is a far cry closer to when the apostles lived than we are today.
The fact is that Rome has doctrine that has been believed all along. That it was written down in such a document is proof that it was believed very early on. The doctrines we hold about Mary's perpetual virginity have always been believed, and handed down from the apostles for us to be believed, and we know that Jesus said he would send an Advocate to protect the Truth.

Well they are the collected writings that exist from church leaders up to the Nicene Council! That is why it is called the writings of the ante-nicene Fathers. Which is sad that Rome doesn't hol;d them true! These are writings (both herwetical and non heretical) that trace teh hisotry of the struggles of teh early church!

So you would believe heretical and non-heretical writings of the ECF, but you wouldn't believe the Protoevangelium of James, which talks about the grandparents of Jesus? Amazing!

I take it you ask this rhetorically but God created sex to be done between a husband and wife alone!

No, I didn't ask it rhetorically. But your answer doesn't really answer the question. I agree with you, but it's much more complicated than that.

No response to this mortal sin that isn't a mortal sin under certain circumstances? But mortal and venial sins are a topic for another thread!

What you're missing about mortal sin vs. venial sin...venial sins are habitual, usually. If I consume more food or alcohol than I should, for example. Mortal sin has several components. It must be grave matter (basically a violation of a commandment), the person must know it's a sin, and he must freely do this sin even though he knows it's sinful. So the first commandment, basically, is that we must worship God. For Catholics, that means going to Mass. So missing Mass is, objectively a mortal sin, for a Catholic. All Catholics know they are supposed to go to Mass on Sunday to worship God. But missing Mass must be a willful act for it to be a mortal sin. So, for example, you set your alarm to wake up and get ready for Mass, but when it went off, you stopped the alarm and told yourself, ah, I'll just miss Mass today. Yes, that's a mortal sin. But if you had every intention of going to Mass, but your alarm didn't go off, and you missed Mass, it's something that you need to talk to a priest about, but it's not a mortal sin, it was an accident. Another example: When I was new to fasting meat on Friday (even though it's never been a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays), one time I was happily preparing some tuna salad, with eggs and celery, and thought it would be nice to add some bacon bits. When I ate it, I realized my error. Well, I was certainly sorry for what I did, but it was an accident, so it wasn't really 'mortal'. Do you understand?
One more example: There's this big craze about having a designated driver if you drink too much. Well, gluttony is certainly a sin, and if it's serious, then it's a mortal sin. But there's two situations: 1. It's Friday and you want to blow off some steam, so you decide to stop at the local pub. You start to relax and have a good time, and forget yourself, and have one or two too many. So you give your keys to a friend who's sober, or call a cab. This is venial sin. On the other hand, same scenario, but you walk into the pub with the intention to 'tie one on', and immediately give your keys to your friend, who's going to stay sober, and then proceed to bleed the pub dry of alcohol. This is mortal, because it's premeditated gluttony, as opposed to 'whoops, I've had a little too much'.
I'm not trying to get you to believe what we believe, sir. I'm trying to help you understand why we believe what we believe.

prodromos · Jul 29, 2020

nolidad said:
And the verb "know", is in the present active indicative which simply means she was simply stating she had not had sex with any man yet! If she wanted to remain a virgin it would have not been in the present but in the perfect!

That isn't how the Greek tenses work. They are more to do with activity and less to do with time. There is no real equivalence between English tenses and Greek tenses.
Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

In English, and in most other languages, the tense of the verb mainly refers to the 'time' of the action of the verb (present, past, or future time). In Greek, however, although time does bear upon the meaning of tense, the primary consideration of the tense of the verb is not time, but rather the 'kind of action' that the verb portrays. The most important element in Greek tense is kind of action; time is regarded as a secondary element. For this reason, many grammarians have adopted the German word 'aktionsart' (kind of action) to be able to more easily refer to this phenomenon of Greek verbs.

The kind of action (aktionsart) of a Greek verb will generally fall into one of three categories:
1) Continuous (or ‘Progressive’) kind of action.
2) Completed (or ‘Accomplished’) kind of action, with continuing results.
3) Simple occurrence, (or ‘Summary occurrence’) without reference to the question of progress. (This is sometimes referred to as 'Punctiliar' kind of action , but it is a misnomer to thus imply that, in every instance, the action only happened at one point of time. This can be true, but it is often dependent on other factors such as the meaning of the verb, other words in the context, etc.).

It is an important distinction to understand, as discussed below, that the only place in which 'time' comes to bear directly upon the tense of a verb is when the verb is in the indicative mood. In all other moods and uses the aktionsart of the verb tense should be seen as primary.

nolidad · Jul 29, 2020

Root of Jesse said:
The grammar used conveys that Mary would never have sex with a man. IT is a denial of her participating in sexual relations at all, and supported by the narrative of the Protoevangelium of James.

Well we are done. YOu are so willing to believe that you deny words and their use and meaning!

I do not wish you well in your pursuit. I hope you fail miserably, so you can see teh Supremacy of the Grace of Jesus and His Father!

nolidad · Jul 29, 2020

prodromos said:
That isn't how the Greek tenses work. They are more to do with activity and less to do with time. There is no real equivalence between English tenses and Greek tenses.
Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

In English, and in most other languages, the tense of the verb mainly refers to the 'time' of the action of the verb (present, past, or future time). In Greek, however, although time does bear upon the meaning of tense, the primary consideration of the tense of the verb is not time, but rather the 'kind of action' that the verb portrays. The most important element in Greek tense is kind of action; time is regarded as a secondary element. For this reason, many grammarians have adopted the German word 'aktionsart' (kind of action) to be able to more easily refer to this phenomenon of Greek verbs.

The kind of action (aktionsart) of a Greek verb will generally fall into one of three categories:
1) Continuous (or ‘Progressive’) kind of action.
2) Completed (or ‘Accomplished’) kind of action, with continuing results.
3) Simple occurrence, (or ‘Summary occurrence’) without reference to the question of progress. (This is sometimes referred to as 'Punctiliar' kind of action , but it is a misnomer to thus imply that, in every instance, the action only happened at one point of time. This can be true, but it is often dependent on other factors such as the meaning of the verb, other words in the context, etc.).

It is an important distinction to understand, as discussed below, that the only place in which 'time' comes to bear directly upon the tense of a verb is when the verb is in the indicative mood. In all other moods and uses the aktionsart of the verb tense should be seen as primary.

YOu should have read the rest of your little snippet. Verbs describe action absolutely, but the over 580 greek tenses of a verb also connote time when the action has occured, did occur or will occure or continously occurs!

YOu know like our English past present future.

I went to the store
I am at the store
I will go to the store!

Can you spot the sentence that shows something that already occurred according to teh verb?
Is occuring according to teh verb?
or will occur according to the verb? I know you can!

And your "expert" is very wrong. Tiem play s a major part in more than just teh indicative mood! I know you sought to post a simplisitc difintion for space sake, but this little blurb does contain important errors about time and action and their relationship in greek verbs.

nolidad · Jul 29, 2020

Root of Jesse said:
The grammar used conveys that Mary would never have sex with a man. IT is a denial of her participating in sexual relations at all, and supported by the narrative of the Protoevangelium of James.

I do not need to read a missive that even your own sect doesn't regard as official!

If you wish to believe that Mary is:

Ever virgin
never had any other children
conceived and preserved from sin
is the Queen of Heaven
Is the MOther of Jesus' divinity
Is co-Mediatrix
co-redemptrix
sits enthroned in heaven
holds back Jesus wrath (as per Fatima)
commands people to pray to her!

That is your privilege, but it will come with terrible consequences.

Root of Jesse · Jul 29, 2020

nolidad said:
Well we are done. YOu are so willing to believe that you deny words and their use and meaning!

I do not wish you well in your pursuit. I hope you fail miserably, so you can see teh Supremacy of the Grace of Jesus and His Father!

It's funny that when people make accusations, they forget that for the one finger you point at me, you have three more pointing back at you. And it's very "Christian" of you, the final comment you make. Jesus said "Judge not, lest you be judged." I'll leave it at that.

Root of Jesse · Jul 29, 2020

nolidad said:
YOu should have read the rest of your little snippet. Verbs describe action absolutely, but the over 580 greek tenses of a verb also connote time when the action has occured, did occur or will occure or continously occurs!

YOu know like our English past present future.

I went to the store
I am at the store
I will go to the store!

Can you spot the sentence that shows something that already occurred according to teh verb?
Is occuring according to teh verb?
or will occur according to the verb? I know you can!

And your "expert" is very wrong. Tiem play s a major part in more than just teh indicative mood! I know you sought to post a simplisitc difintion for space sake, but this little blurb does contain important errors about time and action and their relationship in greek verbs.

Believe what you want. A Protestant is simply a Catholic who doesn't like the doctrine.

Root of Jesse · Jul 29, 2020

nolidad said:
I do not need to read a missive that even your own sect doesn't regard as official!

If you wish to believe that Mary is:

Ever virgin
never had any other children
conceived and preserved from sin
is the Queen of Heaven
Is the MOther of Jesus' divinity
Is co-Mediatrix
co-redemptrix
sits enthroned in heaven
holds back Jesus wrath (as per Fatima)
commands people to pray to her!

That is your privilege, but it will come with terrible consequences.

It is my privilege to do as Jesus told us, when he spoke to John "Behold, your mother." This was a demand to us to honor His mother, and I do. For 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, the Church believed, and taught that Mary was always a virgin, that God would have, and did preserve His mother without sin, that Jesus is King, and His mother Queen of heaven, and if so, she is enthroned in heaven. The Bible shows that Mary was able to convince Jesus to perform His first public ministry, and we believe he always listens to His mother. Does Mary COMMAND people pray to her? No. I don't believe Mary is the mother of Jesus' divinity, I believe she is the mother of God. That's not the same thing. As for co-redemptrix or co-mediatrix...If you're mowing the lawn or pushing a grocery cart, and your small child wants to get in front of you and 'help' you, by your logic you would deny him the request, because you're perfectly capable of doing it yourself. But, as above, if Mary can make a request of Jesus, and he listens to her, the same can be said of her being a co-mediatrix. And that she participates in the redemption of the faithful is no surprise.
God created His own mother and fashioned her to be a tender mother, a beautiful bride and a lovely daughter. Her dignity is so great that God obeys her, saints honor her and all the demons fear her!

prodromos · Jul 29, 2020

nolidad said:
YOu should have read the rest of your little snippet. Verbs describe action absolutely, but the over 580 greek tenses of a verb also connote time when the action has occured, did occur or will occure or continously occurs!

YOu know like our English past present future.

I went to the store
I am at the store
I will go to the store!

Can you spot the sentence that shows something that already occurred according to teh verb?
Is occuring according to teh verb?
or will occur according to the verb? I know you can!

And your "expert" is very wrong. Tiem play s a major part in more than just teh indicative mood! I know you sought to post a simplisitc difintion for space sake, but this little blurb does contain important errors about time and action and their relationship in greek verbs.

I lived in Greece for 12 years. You don't know what you are talking about.

Root of Jesse · Jul 29, 2020

It's funny how this topic about the state of the Church became an anti-Apostolic rant.

nolidad · Jul 30, 2020

prodromos said:
That isn't how the Greek tenses work. They are more to do with activity and less to do with time. There is no real equivalence between English tenses and Greek tenses.
Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

In English, and in most other languages, the tense of the verb mainly refers to the 'time' of the action of the verb (present, past, or future time). In Greek, however, although time does bear upon the meaning of tense, the primary consideration of the tense of the verb is not time, but rather the 'kind of action' that the verb portrays. The most important element in Greek tense is kind of action; time is regarded as a secondary element. For this reason, many grammarians have adopted the German word 'aktionsart' (kind of action) to be able to more easily refer to this phenomenon of Greek verbs.

The kind of action (aktionsart) of a Greek verb will generally fall into one of three categories:
1) Continuous (or ‘Progressive’) kind of action.
2) Completed (or ‘Accomplished’) kind of action, with continuing results.
3) Simple occurrence, (or ‘Summary occurrence’) without reference to the question of progress. (This is sometimes referred to as 'Punctiliar' kind of action , but it is a misnomer to thus imply that, in every instance, the action only happened at one point of time. This can be true, but it is often dependent on other factors such as the meaning of the verb, other words in the context, etc.).

It is an important distinction to understand, as discussed below, that the only place in which 'time' comes to bear directly upon the tense of a verb is when the verb is in the indicative mood. In all other moods and uses the aktionsart of the verb tense should be seen as primary.

Yes that is how Greek verbs work!

The perfect tense (and pluperfect in many cases), connotes an action that having begun continues to so without interruption! so if Mary8 wanted to say she had not had sex at all (an action) and had no ontention of having sex in the future (another action denoted intime) God would have inspired the perfect tense! Sorry but that is Greek!

And you are wrong about the indicative. From a greek grammar website:

The indicative mood (οριστική) presents the action or the event as something real or certain, in other words as an objective fact. This mood is to be found in all tenses.
https://www.greekgrammar.eu/moods.p...d (οριστική) presents,be found in all tenses.
Greek Grammar verb moods

As for the perfect?

The Perfect Tense indicates ongoing result. If you remember that the meaning of the word perfect is complete, then you can remember that the perfect tense has to do with completed action. But the perfect tense is a primary tense because it emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action.
http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson23.htm...dicates ongoing,result of a completed action.
Course II, Lesson 3 - New Testament Greek

Time does play a part in greek verbs just like in English! Action is primary but time occurs often!

What happened to the Christianity that gave us the Holy Roman Empire...

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