Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Furthermore, the Didache, perhaps the earliest Christian catechism we have clearly teaches the Two Ways, so there is no doubt as to how they understood the Bible. That some later Fathers would develop a different understanding does not undermine this, for this has always been the overwhelming position of the Church, because that's simply what the Bible teaches.
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I follow Christ. That is why I am a Christian.

IF Hell is just a made up place for the sake of literature... why would Jesus warn that it is better I live life maimed than to be cast into it.

IF you do not want to believe that a hell exists, that is your choice. However, how can you claim to follow the one that warns against this place that "does not exist"?

Call this place eternal fire, call it hell, call it an eternity in Florida.... whatever you choose to call it, Jesus warned against it. IF you believe Him to be who He says He is.... why do you ignore His warnings?

Matthew 18:8-9
Do you believe that Jesus died to save us from God?
 
Upvote 0

Toro

Oh, Hello!
Jan 27, 2012
24,219
12,451
You don't get to stalk me. :|
✟338,520.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you believe that Jesus died to save us from God?
I believe that Jesus died to free us from sin and reunite us to God tgrough Himself.

That WITHOUT connection through Him is seperattion FROM God... which IS Hell as resulted by choice of denying Him.

You want to believe there is no hell.. as I said... your choice, but why do you claim tge name of tge one that warns of hell a great deal of times?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe that Jesus died to free us from sin and reunite us to God tgrough Himself.

That WITHOUT connection through Him is seperattion FROM God... which IS Hell as resulted by choice of denying Him.

You want to believe there is no hell.. as I said... your choice, but why do you claim tge name of tge one that warns of hell a great deal of times?
So, you are claiming that everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ in this lifetime? Seems to me that countless billions have not.
 
Upvote 0

Toro

Oh, Hello!
Jan 27, 2012
24,219
12,451
You don't get to stalk me. :|
✟338,520.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, you are claiming that everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ in this lifetime? Seems to me that countless billions have not.
If one is ignorant of Christ it is up to God to judge their heart if they would have accepted Jesus had they had the opportunity... not for me.

But those that have the opportunity to know Him, and can not claim truthful ignorance... will be held accountable for their choice.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Swan7
Upvote 0

Running2win

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2020
738
464
63
St. Louis
✟17,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you believe that Jesus died to save us from God?
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

What do you think? There are only two realities: If you are not born again you are a child of the devil and deserve your just reward. If you are born again anew from above you are a child of God. So what is your choice? And what is your destiny? Choose this day whom you will serve.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If one is ignorant of Christ it is up to God to judge their heart if they would have accepted Jesus had they had the opportunity... not for me.

But those that have the opportunity to know Him, and can not claim truthful ignorance... will be held accountable for their choice.
So, you are making an exception for ignorance then?
Making an opportunity for a decision in the afterlife. What became of your doctrine?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What do you think? There are only two realities: If you are not born again you are a child of the devil and deserve your just reward. If you are born again anew from above you are a child of God. So what is your choice? And what is your destiny? Choose this day whom you will serve.
So, you are claiming that everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ in this lifetime? Seems to me that countless billions have not.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Swan7
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If one is ignorant of Christ it is up to God to judge their heart if they would have accepted Jesus had they had the opportunity... not for me.
What is the real criteria for salvation then?
 
Upvote 0

Daniel9v9

Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
1,928
1,714
38
London
Visit site
✟394,138.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

That's a questionable statement. I just checked a few books I have handy: Lutheran Cyclopedia, Ecclesiologia by Weidner (Lutheran), Popular Symbolics by Engelder (Lutheran), The Baker Compact Dictionary of Theological Terms (Reformed), Christian Theology by Alister McGrath (Anglican), and The Orthodox Way by Ware (Eastern Orthodox) - and they all contradict or allude to the opposite of what Schaff writes. They certainly don't affirm his position. I'm happy to put together some quotes if you're interested.

I've studied Church History, and to the best of my memory, Apocatastasis is not found in the Apostolic Fathers. As already mentioned, the Didache, for example, starts with: "There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between these two ways." This Two Ways doctrine is also found in Barnabas, Ignatius, Hermas, and the general call for repentance and unity of the Church (as opposed to universalism) is very strong throughout the early Church Fathers. Again, the Didache even has a short Apocalypse that reads: "Then all humankind will come to the fiery test, and many will fall away and perish; but those who endure in their faith will be saved by the accursed one himself."

Now, just as at some point the heresy Arianism enjoyed a great deal of popularity in the ancient Church, I can concede to that perhaps there was a time where many were influenced by Apocatastasis, but I have a very hard time believing that this was the prevalent teaching of the Church in the five or six first centuries, as Schaff suggests. That flies in the face of Scriptures itself, as well as Early Church Fathers, and the history books I've read on the matter. The Early Church is complex and they don't use fixed terminology, so it can be difficult to grasp their meaning. This also extends to Origen, who some argue didn't teach Universalism as we understand it today. Or at least he taught inconsistently about it. For example, you can see the Wikipedia entry on the subject and read for yourself:
Apocatastasis - Wikipedia.

In short, the orthodox position has always been Two Ways. This is why they're even included in our creeds. It's not a later development - it's what the Bible teaches and what the early Church taught. There is salvation, namely, through Christ, and damnation for all who reject God's grace.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Running2win
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Running2win

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2020
738
464
63
St. Louis
✟17,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So, you are claiming that everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ in this lifetime? Seems to me that countless billions have not.
Oh, you didn't get the memo. :doh:
9“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Swan7
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Fictional imagery aside, hell has the full support of Jesus Christ and the early Church. But don't mistake it for a physical space; it is a metaphysical one.
Of course it is the problem is the bible communicates this place with physical descriptors like fire, darkness, or worms that never stop. People read the account of Lazarus and the rich man for example then all of a sudden get this idea that hell is built up of layers and some place called Abraham's bosom is on top of it all (having no idea this is heavily influenced by dante's inferno and the book of enoch) It's a forest through the trees problem, people get hung of by the details and lose focus of the actual account's message. The point of Lazarus and the rich man is not to tell us a literal description of hell and if that's our walk away we need to read it again.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Of course it is the problem is the bible communicates this place with physical descriptors like fire, darkness, or worms that never stop. People read the account of Lazarus and the rich man for example then all of a sudden get this idea that hell is built up of layers and some place called Abraham's bosom is on top of it all (having no idea this is heavily influenced by dante's inferno and the book of enoch) It's a forest through the trees problem, people get hung of by the details and lose focus of the actual account's message. The point of Lazarus and the rich man is not to tell us a literal description of hell and if that's our walk away we need to read it again.
Nonsense! You keep posting the same refuted rubbish over and over and over. There was a concept of a place of eternal fiery punishment in Israel, more than 1400 years before Dante! They called it both "sheol" and "Ge hinnom" which is translated "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC Greek LXX and in the NT. Enoch was considered canon by the Jews and is included in the
Abraham's bosom is NOT a place it is a position. The position of honor to the right, in front of the host.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man may be some other literary device but is NOT a parable. "Parable" is from the Greek word "parabole" which literally means to place or throw beside. Something unknown, i.e. the kingdom of heaven, is explained by comparing it to something known. E.g. "the kingdom of heaven is like to a mustard seed..." There is no comparison in Lazarus and the rich man. Also All five of the ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual. I have posted the evidence before but you have ignored it, it doesn't fit your agenda. The book of Enoch is quoted as authoritative in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Thus your objection is meaningless.
….This .This is what is known as historical evidence. Please note the blue highlights all the many scriptures they based their beliefs on.
According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

 
Upvote 0

Toro

Oh, Hello!
Jan 27, 2012
24,219
12,451
You don't get to stalk me. :|
✟338,520.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, you are making an exception for ignorance then?
Making an opportunity for a decision in the afterlife. What became of your doctrine?
Nope, not at all. You are twisting my words to fit your narrative.

The VERY word of God makes the exception, not I. Acts 17:30 Speaks of forgiveness in times of ignorance... if so for sin... how much more so if the opportunity to know Christ was not presented but one that would have been fully devoted had they been given that opportunity?

My doctrine, remains in tact... whether you choose to agree or not.

However i have answered your questions... why don't you ask YOURSELF this question. You don't even need to answer me a thing.

Do you believe God to be a God of empty and hollow words?

Because, to deny hell, the VERY thing that Jesus warned about a multitude of times. To declare that all are forgiven and none are denied..... is to claim that:

1) Jesus lied when He said He will tell those that come to Him on that day. Depart from me. Matthew 7:21-23
2) That God filled up the entire New Testament with empty and useless words and warnings when a simple "You're Welcome" would have achieved the exact same thing IF there is not hell and none will ever be separate from Him.

However, we see in Genesis that God is NOT a God of empty words.... He speaks and things come into being.
Genesis 1:3 - God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Genesis 1:6 - God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
Genesis 1:9 - God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so
and so on...

IF Jesus spoke a warning...... THERE IS a reason for it.

What is the real criteria for salvation then?
Faith in Christ alone. HOWEVER not all have the opportunity to know Him such as those in the old testament, but still, they RESPOND to God as He has written His law on their hearts and He knows who belongs to Him, both those that have heard His voice.... and those that only long to hear His voice, but never do in this life, but will. God will judge rightly in their case.

Those that CAN know Him, but choose this world and the justifications of their sins over Him... will not be afforded such over lookings.

Again, you wish to believe there is no such thing.... that is your choice. I myself would rather believe the words of Jesus and His warnings, considering I call myself a Christian.

To ignore the warnings of someone I call myself a follower of.... but I myself believe those warnings are of something nonexistent... makes very little logical sense..

IF someone started warning about a giant purple octopus in the sky snatching people up and eating them.... Id consider that person to be a mad man...... not call myself by their name and follow them.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Swan7
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
[Toro>>>Nope, not at all. You are twisting my words to fit your narrative.
The VERY word of God makes the exception, not I. Acts 17:30 Speaks of forgiveness in times of ignorance... if so for sin... how much more so if the opportunity to know Christ was not presented but one that would have been fully devoted had they been given that opportunity?
My doctrine, remains in tact... whether you choose to agree or not.
However i have answered your questions... why don't you ask YOURSELF this question. You don't even need to answer me a thing.
Do you believe God to be a God of empty and hollow words?
Because, to deny hell, the VERY thing that Jesus warned about a multitude of times. To declare that all are forgiven and none are denied..... is to claim that:
1) Jesus lied when He said He will tell those that come to Him on that day. Depart from me. Matthew 7:21-23
2) That God filled up the entire New Testament with empty and useless words and warnings when a simple "You're Welcome" would have achieved the exact same thing IF there is not hell and none will ever be separate from Him.
However, we see in Genesis that God is NOT a God of empty words.... He speaks and things come into being.
Genesis 1:3 - God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Genesis 1:6 - God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
Genesis 1:9 - God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so
and so on...
IF Jesus spoke a warning...... THERE IS a reason for it.
Faith in Christ alone. HOWEVER not all have the opportunity to know Him such as those in the old testament, but still, they RESPOND to God as He has written His law on their hearts and He knows who belongs to Him, both those that have heard His voice.... and those that only long to hear His voice, but never do in this life, but will. God will judge rightly in their case.
Those that CAN know Him, but choose this world and the justifications of their sins over Him... will not be afforded such over lookings.
Again, you wish to believe there is no such thing.... that is your choice. I myself would rather believe the words of Jesus and His warnings, considering I call myself a Christian.
To ignore the warnings of someone I call myself a follower of.... but I myself believe those warnings are of something nonexistent... makes very little logical sense..
IF someone started warning about a giant purple octopus in the sky snatching people up and eating them.... Id consider that person to be a mad man...... not call myself by their name and follow them
.<<<Toro]
The folks on the other side want to argue about children, infants, mentally handicapped, people who have never heard the gospel etc. But God has already addressed that.
Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But it will be a spiritual body, as attested by the Scripture I provided. I can't know exactly what it means to be raised a spiritual body. It hasn't happened to me yet.
Yet still physical in nature. Jesus said a spirit does not have FLESH and BONES as you see I have. cf Luke 24:39

He also showed them His hands,feet and side which still retains the marks from His crucifixion in His Resurrected Glorified Body of literal flesh and bones. Its all there in John and the Synoptic's.

Luke 24:36-49

While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

hope this helps !!!
 
Upvote 0

Toro

Oh, Hello!
Jan 27, 2012
24,219
12,451
You don't get to stalk me. :|
✟338,520.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
[Toro>>>Nope, not at all. You are twisting my words to fit your narrative.
The VERY word of God makes the exception, not I. Acts 17:30 Speaks of forgiveness in times of ignorance... if so for sin... how much more so if the opportunity to know Christ was not presented but one that would have been fully devoted had they been given that opportunity?
My doctrine, remains in tact... whether you choose to agree or not.
However i have answered your questions... why don't you ask YOURSELF this question. You don't even need to answer me a thing.
Do you believe God to be a God of empty and hollow words?
Because, to deny hell, the VERY thing that Jesus warned about a multitude of times. To declare that all are forgiven and none are denied..... is to claim that:
1) Jesus lied when He said He will tell those that come to Him on that day. Depart from me. Matthew 7:21-23
2) That God filled up the entire New Testament with empty and useless words and warnings when a simple "You're Welcome" would have achieved the exact same thing IF there is not hell and none will ever be separate from Him.
However, we see in Genesis that God is NOT a God of empty words.... He speaks and things come into being.
Genesis 1:3 - God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Genesis 1:6 - God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
Genesis 1:9 - God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so
and so on...
IF Jesus spoke a warning...... THERE IS a reason for it.
Faith in Christ alone. HOWEVER not all have the opportunity to know Him such as those in the old testament, but still, they RESPOND to God as He has written His law on their hearts and He knows who belongs to Him, both those that have heard His voice.... and those that only long to hear His voice, but never do in this life, but will. God will judge rightly in their case.
Those that CAN know Him, but choose this world and the justifications of their sins over Him... will not be afforded such over lookings.
Again, you wish to believe there is no such thing.... that is your choice. I myself would rather believe the words of Jesus and His warnings, considering I call myself a Christian.
To ignore the warnings of someone I call myself a follower of.... but I myself believe those warnings are of something nonexistent... makes very little logical sense..
IF someone started warning about a giant purple octopus in the sky snatching people up and eating them.... Id consider that person to be a mad man...... not call myself by their name and follow them
.<<<Toro]
The folks on the other side want to argue about children, infants, mentally handicapped, people who have never heard the gospel etc. But God has already addressed that.
Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
And biology says there is male and female.... yet there are anomalies where a person is born with both. The exception doesnt become the rule just because one feels it should.

It is no different when it comes to salvation through Christ. The rule is, by faith alone. God will judge the "anomalies" as He sees fit.

Like it or not, there are times when it is a matter of Gods judgement, not mans.

God knows every detail, is righteous and Holy and His judgments are correct. Unlike man His judgement is based on ALL information, not the half knowledge, distorted "truths", assumptions and opinions of men.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Swan7
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So, you are claiming that everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ in this lifetime? Seems to me that countless billions have not.
May I ask where does the bible say or declare that "everyone " must have the "opportunity" to accept or reject Christ in this life ?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yet still physical in nature. Jesus said a spirit does not have FLESH and BONES as you see I have. cf Luke 24:39

He also showed them His hands,feet and side which still retains the marks from His crucifixion in His Resurrected Glorified Body of literal flesh and bones. Its all there in John and the Synoptic's.

Luke 24:36-49

While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

hope this helps !!!
Thank you, all of physical nature, everywhere, will be different when God transforms it into "a new heaven and a new earth" as proclaimed in Scripture. Our physical nature becoming one with the spiritual in a way not fully known to any of us yet.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.