Saved by faith alone

genez said:

YES! I DO!

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What is this post supposed to mean??

pescador said:

I am an American, and I disagree with your judgement.

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Otzi? I thought you are European..

Then.. welcome to being an American where we are free to disagree.


Where the Spirit is found there is liberty...

Danthemailman said:

Your biased opinion dictates that (and there is a reason for that) and not Sacred Scripture.

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Nah

Typical straw man argument. 1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Yet according to you, those who are born of God practice sin by committing multiple murders and child rape.

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No friend, according to you saved people practice murder and rape. You already gave the example of David as having committed murder (and adultery by the way). Now, how many murders and rapes can the "truly saved" person commit? How about two? How about three? How many murders and rapes can he commit before you will say that he is practicing sin and thus was "never really saved in the first place?"

Genuine, born again Christians repent when they backslide.

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No. Some repent, others do not. Some endure to the end, some do not.

Do you claim to live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time?

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Of course not. When I sin, I repent for it. If I do not repent for it, then I do not receive forgiveness for it. And that is why the Bible teaches that Christians should confess and repent for their sins. You see how that works?

All genuine believers are one of God's saints and I am certainly believing/trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation.

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You wrote that "we don't infallibly know everyone who truly is one of His saints. Some may look like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot) but in the end turn out to be a devil." How do you know that you are a "genuine believer" as opposed to someone who has fooled himself into thinking that he is a "genuine believer" if we cannot infallibly know who is and who is not a saint? Or is that we don't know in the case of everyone except you?

No, Romans 11 "on the surface" only "appears" to teach that.

The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).

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What, you are really arguing that "cut off" applies only to "non-elect branches" who are grafted into Christ? First, the text does not state anything about "non-elect branches". You just made that up. Second, the text states that "you" will be cut off, and St. Paul states that this same "you" "stands fast through faith." St. Paul does not write anything about non-elect branches who merely profess faith, or who have a spurious faith, but that they "stand fast through faith". "Stand fast" indicates a strong faith, not merely a professed faith or a weak faith. So your whole argument goes out the window.

It's not about being a robot. Those who are born of God have received the Holy Spirit and the love of God in their hearts (Romans 5:5) and are new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17) We have been changed! Praise God! You seem to rely more on self preservation than you do in God's preservation.

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No, it is very much about being a robot, because you argue that a person who is "truly saved" has no option to reject our Lord. He does not have a will that is free to continue to accept Christ, or to reject him. He cannot make a choice to reject our Lord. He is a puppet.

As for me relying more on self-preservation, far from it. It is God, by way of the Holy Spirit working in our lives, that gives us the strength to perservere. But we can reject God's promptings because we are not robots. And we do in fact reject His promptings every time that we sin, because the Holy Spirit does not prompt us to do evil. Thus, the New Testament has so many warnings to Christians about enduring to the end, continuing to run the race, not falling into unbelief and grave sin. All of these warnings are superfluous if the "truly saved" person is in fact actually incapable of falling.

Have a nice day.

genez said:

We need to be careful.. for love without knowledge will die on the vine.

Knowledge (faith learned) without love is meaningless. Agreed.

Love without knowledge is like a seedling not getting water to grow, and will die.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more
in knowledge and depth of insight." Phipns 1:9​

The Amplified Bible digs deep and renders it this way:

And this I pray: that your love may abound yet more and
more and extend to its fullest development in knowledge
and all keen insight [that your love may display itself in greater
depth of acquaintance and more comprehensive discernment]. Phipns 1:9​

That seed of love for the Lord we have someday may turn out to be an oak tree. Knowledge (in grace) are the sunlight and water to make our love grow into what God intends us to become.

Faith is not a feeling. Faith comes by knowledge!

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17
​

grace and peace....

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Perhaps but it doesn’t take much knowledge. It does take the message of the gospel but not a full understanding of it.

BNR32FAN said:

Perhaps but it doesn’t take much knowledge. It does take the message of the gospel but not a full understanding of it.

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If you want your love to grow? What do we need?

More sunshine... more rain. Or, it will die. I have seen burn outs because they kept wanting to reenact their initial experience into salvation.

We used to play with toys and were very happy. Its no different as a baby Christian needs to change and mature. The knowledge we needed to gain in school was not static. It always going to another level required to grow.


Many have refused to grow up and demand that they continue being treated like they were adorable children. Many lock into a closed minded doctrinal rationale and spend their lives defending their pet doctrines... and never grow.

(kids) "Where is your love?"

We need a father in this house.

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genez said:

If you want your love to grow? What do we need?

More sunshine... more rain. Or, it will die. I have seen burn outs because they kept wanting to reenact their initial experience into salvation.

We used to play with toys and were very happy. Its no different as a baby Christian needs to change and mature. The knowledge we needed to gain in school was not static. It always going to another level required to grow.

Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it
you may grow up in your salvation." 1 Pet 2:2
​

Many have refused to grow up and demand that they continue being treated like they were adorable children. Many lock into a closed minded doctrinal rationale and spend their lives defending their pet doctrines... and never grow.

(kids) "Where is your love?"

We need a father in this house.

...................

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How much knowledge did the thief on the cross have? How much knowledge does my 6 year old daughter have? You don’t have to be a theologian to be saved. You just need to believe the gospel. Now I get what your saying in a sense. Nothing is more important than God’s word and it is important that we should study it to ensure we’re not being misled by letting someone else tell us what God’s word actually says. Because there are thousands of opinions & interpretations out there. So I get what your saying but I also think your focusing on one aspect and not the full picture on this topic my friend.

Danthemailman said:

Genuine, born again Christians repent when they backslide. "Nominal" Christians/make believers show their true colors by continuing in their lifestyle of practicing sin.

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But both are saved.

That is why we read the following about those who refuse repent...



Those who are born of the Spirit can not continue to sin. God makes sure of that if they think otherwise. For, God takes them home early so they can not continue. Unbelievers God simply leaves be and they die an old age sinning. Just look at old man George Soros, etc.

zoidar said:

What really matters!

"God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." /Romans 5

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You are talking about being born again. OK.

Many are born again. Its very easy. It by grace. It requires understanding almost nothing to be saved. I have been talking about what should take place after we are saved.

Now.. How many are willing to take the narrow and 'pressurized' path which was made to glorify Christ after they are saved?

You are dwelling on being born. Its so simple even a child knowing very little can do it. Yet, after we are saved? We have received our new spiritual life Jesus wants us to dwell on growing up and maturing after we are born again...


There is nothing wrong with being as a babe in Christ. Its great to see a new one finding his new spiritual life. Trouble begins when...
Many want to stay being as babies. They want to stay home watching spiritual cartoons while now being old enough in the Lord to be out and finding the work they should be doing as an adult.

This is not a new problem..The church in Jerusalem had that problem, as well as with the Corinthians.






grace and peace

genez said:

Many want to stay being as babies. They want to stay home watching spiritual cartoons while now being old enough in the Lord to be out and finding the work they should be doing as an adult.

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Please teach us the way to spiritual adulthood, oh great sage of wisdom

BNR32FAN said:

How much knowledge did the thief on the cross have? How much knowledge does my 6 year old daughter have? You don’t have to be a theologian to be saved.

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We are saved by grace through faith... Its the easiest thing one can do if one is not resisting the drawing of God.

There is a problem though. It does not stop there. Some never want to grow up. They resent it when God brings knowledge their way, and requiring that they stop being ignorant of His thinking...

........

zoidar said:

Matthew 18
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

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Again... you keep pointing to remaining as a child. We all must begin there. My narrative has been about maturing, which the Lord will require of us all.



Some need to stop having the Peter Pan syndrome... "I don't want to grow up. I want to always be a kid."

God wants mature adults representing him.


grace and peace....

Swag365 said:

Please teach us the way to spiritual adulthood, oh great sage of wisdom

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God will teach you... You're his child. Or, you will find yourself being spanked by God on earth till the day you die. Never going to become truly happy in your soul...

Its ok...

zoidar said:

It's not being like a child, it's becoming humble as a child. God bless you!

4 Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

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The greatest will be the believers who do humble themselves like a child. That means they are obedient to follow their Father's desires. Which is to grow in grace in knowledge till they die....

But, those who want to remain as children, resenting discipline and learning when its required to grow? These refuse to humble themselves as a child. They will fail to be made great in eternity. Jesus was talking about who will be the greatest. Not about who can get saved!

Instead of what the Lord desires to see... too often we find the following.


Much evidence can be seen in forums like this one where no one can agree unless its fits their preferred way of seeing things.

Those who become (by grace) the greatest will find themselves walking in a peace like a child does... But with a mature mind thinking like an adult. We do not have too many adults today. Lot's of big bodies seeking teachings that they prefer to hear. Few are mentally adult enough to accept what sound doctrinal teaching must show us if we are ever to begin thinking with the same thinking as Christ.

We have been given the Mind of Christ. Many prefer their own way of thinking and will seek out teachers to tell them that what they wish to believe is the way it is... Its everywhere to be found.

And, there we have it. And, along with it. Many excuses.

Radagast said:

Nowhere does the Bible say that.

And per the rules, the unorthodox doctrine of Universalism may not be discussed here, but only in the "Controversial" section.

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Why do you suggest that the fact that God saves all men is unorthodox that is just your opinion and its wrong according to God. Why is Gods word controversial? I am sure he would disagree as he has proven only religion has blinded you.

zoidar said:

Sure judge the belief,
but not who has been born again or not.

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We would not be able to have a discussion on Soteriology if we cannot say which way is the right way and which way is the wrong way. Not all roads lead to salvation. Not everyone preaches the same Jesus, or the same gospel.

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8).

“For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” (2 Corinthians 11:4).

You said:

It's not a matter of theology.

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“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 1:9-11).

W

Daryn said:

Why do you suggest that the fact that God saves all men is unorthodox that is just your opinion and its wrong according to God. Why is Gods word controversial? I am sure he would disagree as he has proven only religion has blinded you.

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Where does it say all men are saved?

It only says that Jesus if the savior of all men. Meaning.. all men can be saved.