1.Not upset! Just astonished !
Well God knows if you were upset or not. I do not so I am happy you were not upset. Perhaps it just came across that way in your post. There is no need to be astonished when only scripture was provided. Perhaps your astonishment is the scriptures disagreeing with you.
2.You have yet to provide context to prove that Heb. 6 and 10 (your main argument here) shows that a beleiver can lost their salvation! If you wish I can bring to this site teh very lengthy parsing of teh 2 verses and show their construct in Greek and prove that you are mistaken in thinking they apply to believers! Context and the whole Epistle shows it does not!
Well that is not true dear friend. Context was provided and also demonstrated in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 in
post #144 linked. Your response was to ignore the content of this post. I am sure others can see this if you cannot. Your response here was simply to deny God's Words with yours so I will leave that between you and God as they are God's Words not mine and we will have to agree to disagree. I have linked you to
post #144 linked where context is provided to prove your claims here are not true and unfounded.
3. when does a beliver become a non -believer and how long in no longer believing Jesus died for the full payment of their sin does it take for them to lose the Salvation that is being kept for them??? See these are [people who are believers who you say become unbelievers!
As the scriptures (not me) teach when they turn away, fall back and depart the Word of God and return to a life of known unrepentant sin as shown word for word in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39..
CAN WE FALL AWAY FROM THE TRUTH OF GOD’S WORD BACK TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?
HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,
Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS of UNBELIEVERS? Were these BELIEVERS Born again christians. Notice the scripture context (Gods' Word not mine) as these who departed the faith were once believers not unbelievers.
1. Having been enlightened v4;
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5
[6],
IF THEY (believers)
SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.
Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing;
WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.
Yep their end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6).
HEBREWS 6:4-8 is a warning to believers not to depart the faith
Same thoughts expressed further on in the book of HEBREWS again here...
HEBREWS 10:26-39 [26],
FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD. [32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions; [33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used. [34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.[38], NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN
DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Yep seems like those who were once BELEIVERS but depart the faith and draw back to CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are God's Adversaries who will receive the judgments of God. Do you think these people will enter into God's Kingdom? Note the following from
HEBREWS 10:26-39
1. For if "WE" (believers includes Paul) sin willfully after we receive a knowledge of the truth v26
2. God's sacrifice for sin does not cover us v26
3. If we continue in known unrepentant sin all that remains is a fearful looking forward to of judgement v27
4. This judgement shall devour and consume those who continue in sin v27
5. The believer that has now become an unbeliever and continues in sin is now God's adversary v27
6. Those who turn away from the truth of God's Word to sin become Gods' adversaries because they reject the gift of God's grace offerered by dear son v29
7. They are said to have trodden under food the son of God and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing v29
8. Those who depart the faith do dispite of the Spirit of God's grace v29
9. The warning of God's vengence is given v30
10. For those who depart the faith it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God v31
11 The just are those who live by faith (believing and following Gods' Word) v38
12 Once again continuing on the same thought as point 11 IF ANY MAN DRAWS BACK (departs the faith) Pauls soul has no pleasure in him.
All the warnings from
HEBREWS 6:4-8 and
HEBREWS 10:26-39 are to believers not to depart the faith and reject God's Word in order to return to a life of known unrepentant sin. Paul includes himself in these warnings. These are Gods' Word not mine.
4. How are you trying to help me? by misunderstandiong verses and the contxt they are written in?
No, by providing to the context you have left out of the interpretation of the scriptures you have provided (already shown and proven in previous posts). If you need a recap please let me know.
5. YOu are the one who says beleivers can become unbelievers and by direct tie in- say teh blood of Jesus is not enough! Nor is Almighty God powerful enough to keep a believer in the palm of His hand if they have a bad day, week, month or year or however long you think it takes for a believere to become an unbeliever!
Nonsense. I have said no such thing. It is God's Word not mine that says we can depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin and lose salvation in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 counting the blood of the covenant and unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's grace as shown above already.
I see jesus always speaking like wheat and tares! Sheep and goats. Saved or unsaved! Not saved then unsaved!
At the second coming each of us ends up on one side or the other. Our life is simply a probation for heaven. Perhaps you should read the parable of the seed.
MATTHEW 13:20-22 [20], But he that received the seed into stony places,
the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but
endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution rises because of the word, by and by he is offended. [22], He also that received seed among the thorns is
he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
NOt being born again and then becoming un-born again as you say can happen!
We are only Born again as we believe and follow Gods' Word (present tense participle). We are only born of God as his seed (the Word - Luke 8:11) remains in us *1 JOHN 3:6-9; JOHN 15:4-6. Those who depart the faith do not abide in Christ and His seed (the Word) does not remain in them.
No but the perfect shows that once we are saved it is done forever!
Not according to the scriptures. It is only "he that endures temptation to the end that is saved" Those who do not endure and depart the faith are not saved according to the scriptures *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 10:22.
So as I don't misunderstand you, are you saying that we are not saved until we produce to a certain level of fruit?
No, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of words lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *
JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *
MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. These are God's Word not mine. What is it you do not understand?
I know we are saved for good works, but good works are only a sign that one may be saved!
See previous section. No one has ever said we are saved by our works. They are simply the fruit of our faith in the promise of God's salvation which is a free gift.
Let usremember these passages: Matt. 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is a group of people who did many "wonderful" works! Jesus said He NEVER knew them! So good works which are good things are not a sign of being saved!
See previous sections. Your making strawman arguments no one has said or believes.
Then John wrote this:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
No one is of "US" believers if they go out from "US" believers.
And Jesus wrote this: Matt. 13: 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Bible clearly shows a class of people who look like believers act like believers but were never believers!
True. Your point here is?? You haven't made one.
Why do you wish to take believer and unsave them if they lost their faith for a season? Using your misunderstanding of Hebrews, if they later change their mind and wish to get right with Jesus again and get saved again, they can't!
I have done no such thing. It is God's Word not mine that states that there is no such thing as once saved always saved. God's salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith, believing and following God's Word to the end *JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 10:22. Those who depart the faith and continue in known unrepentant sin according to the scriptures will lose their eternal life because they have chosed to depart from God *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39 and quench His Spirit *1 THESSALONIANS 5:19
Hope this helps
.... God is so beyond me! Who can know Him?
.... listen to sound doctrine being taught and find out what you need to learn!
.... hey kid! Want some fairy tales, dogma, and devotionals?
..... those led of the Spirit will find their way through this mess.
