Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

hedrick · Jul 27, 2020

public hermit said:
That's a disheartening conclusion; although, I can see why you say that.

I'm sure you've answered this before, but what do you think? Do you find the scriptures are clear on the issue, or ambiguous, or?

I think Paul taught universal or almost universal salvation. Clearest in 1 Cor 15, but also other places. However it's at least possible that 1 Cor 15 is describing only those who are resurrected, and that it could be combined with conditional immortality.

I think Matthew believed in hell, though I'm not sure whether it's ECT or eventual destruction. When you look at the OT background of the images, it's reasonable to read it as destruction.

I think Mark and Luke are less clear. They certainly talk about judgement, but less than Matthew (particularly for Mark), and with a variety of descriptions. Furthermore, in the synoptics, judgement is as much a threat for lazy believers as punishment for non-believers. However eternal life is talked about as something that not everyone has.

So I'm inclined to see the synoptics as talking about destruction, or (for Mark and Luke) possibly conditional immortality, but with judgement for those who have eternal life. (1 Cor 3:12 would be Paul's equivalent of that judgement.)

John also speaks of eternal life as resulting from faith, but doesn't really talk much about punishment or the alternative to eternal life. That's consistent with conditional immortality, but it's dangerous to ask authors to answer questions that they don't talk about.

I'm not entirely sure that the NT authors agreed. But if I had to put it together, I'd combine conditional immortality with a judgement of those who are saved, with 1 Cor 3:12 being the most literal description of that judgement. (That's using the Gospels and Paul's undisputed letters. Adding the Rev would make a consistent picture difficult.) But there are lots of loose ends in any attempt to put it all together. However the one thing I'm reasonably sure isn't taught is ECT. Probably not even by the Rev, understanding that the pit eventually implodes and that there's no torture going on in the basement under the new Jerusalem.

Dkh587 · Jul 27, 2020

No, it doesn’t. The Hellenized Jews and the Greeks are the source of the eternal conscious torment doctrine.

the Messiah, Apostles & Prophets foretold of the wicked being destroyed and ceasing to exist, not tortured alive forever.

Shrewd Manager · Jul 27, 2020

SarahsKnight said:
Is Dante's Inferno really what I am supposed to believe of God and His brand of justice alongside His mercy and love?

Dante's 9th circle of hell is ice-cold. He knew the classical principles of 4 or 5 element science, where fire is associated with God (it licks heavenward, seeking its home), whereas the furthest from God's presence is like an icy tundra (as water sinks down and gets colder).

Stands to reason, we associate love with warmth, passion with fire, and neglect and mercilessness with ice. That's how God made creation.

So on the science of elemental physics and physiology, the Lake of Fire can only represent the pure and intense presence of God.

SarahsKnight said:
One would think that if eternal torment in hell were the truth, then Scripture would not hesitate to scream an unmistakable warning about it in completely unambiguous language every page, rather than tossing out a verse here and there that has language that merely accommodates the possibility of being interpreted as eternal torment ... amidst probably a hundred if not more verses and passages that use crystal clear language like destroy, kill, burn up, consume, and so forth in reference to the fate of those who refuse to believe.

Progressive revelation in infernalism suggests Jesus saves man from death only to introduce him to an infinitely worse fate. 'I have some good news...and some bad news.'

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny?

Most folks listen to their priest/preacher/minister and also read their Bibles, and most of the time they hear or see “Hell” mentioned, and accept it as a given, in a prima facie sense. I ask you, however, is it so? Does this word and concept belong in the Bible? Does it really belong in t,he theology of so many churches? Let’s dig down into the “infernum” of our subject, “infernum” simply meaning originally that which is below...or simply underground.

The witness of the creation accounts

In Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell. Chapter 1 goes on to state six times that the creation was good, the last time VERY good. The existence of hell would have made it less good, but then, that was before the Fall, so it may not apply. If God made it later, it is not mentioned anywhere, but don’t believe me – examine this list of scriptures mentioning creation:

Exodus 20:11

Isaiah 40:26

Isaiah 45:7-8, 18

Mark 10:6

John 1:1-5

Romans 1:20,25

Romans 8:19-22

I Corinthians 8:6

II Corinthians 5:17

Ephesians 2:10

Colossians 1:16-17, 20

Hebrews 11:3

Revelation 4:11

In Isaiah 45:7 we see a mention of light and darkness, but this is not a hint of hell, if someone were hoping so, for darkness is simply where the light has yet to penetrate.

So, hell appears to be uncreated, but there is more.

The witness of the translated terms

We will find the origin of hell presently, but first let’s look at the words and terms it was translated from.

1. Sheol

“Sheol” is is from the Hebrew, and generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. It is translated in the KJV and probably other translations into one of three words: grave, pit (about half) or hell (about half). Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have very well let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. I suppose they needed some support for the hell doctrine in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go that way.

I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the “hell” list mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” half.

We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” half.Splatter Pak PsalmSplatter Pak 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

2. Hades

“Hades” is the best Greek eqivalent for the Hebrew term “sheol.” However, it is a pagan word from a pagan culture, and thus, brought in some unfortunate theological baggage. It is translated as “hell” consistently in most Bibles, except for one instance. I wondered if it were a matter of context, so I examined all eleven instances of the word, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when “hades” was rendered as “grave,” was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul’s taunt of, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” follows after Hosea 13:14 – “O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction…”. If either were rendered as “hell,” it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.

The last two instances of “hades” to “hell” are in the Revelation, 20:13-14. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – “hades,” in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what my Bible’s references suggest. The translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – hell delivering up its dead, and hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine. Using “grave” or “sheol” would have cleared up the problems.

3. Gehenna

“Gehenna” is used in the Bible some twelve times, depending on the version, and refers to a physical place in the real world that you can visit today. In the OT, it was the “Valley of the Sons of Hinnom,” where children were sacrificed to idols. The form we read in the NT is a Greek transliteration. Now since it is a place in the real world, a fact no one can dispute, I believe its translation as “hell” is NOT justified.

4. Tartarus

This is yet another pagan word from a pagan culture, and only used once, in II Peter 2:4. For the Greeks, it was a prison for the Titans and some people - to Peter, it was a prison for some spirit beings. Should we really hang a doctrine on the single use of a term?

Further, if these four terms were NOT translated as ”hell,” would any of us have suspected such a place, such an outcome? If we take the Bible at face value, how do we explain God failing to tell us that He made the place? How we view God’s sketchy warnings – why did He warn Adam and Eve of only death...if hell were a real place? The warnings He gave to many after that follow the same pattern: simple death was the only listed outcome.

So, examination of the four underlying words translated to “hell” fails to support the concept, especially as two of them are pagan terms. So let’s move on to...

The witness of paganism

You the reader may be wondering something like “What the hell?” and I fully sympathize. Where did this word “hell” come from, anyway? Happily, we have some bread crumbs. Not only do we have the help of our Bible’s marginal references, telling us to “see sheol,” “see hades,” “see gehenna,” and “see tartarus” - we have the following:

1. I have an Oxford English Dictionary, and it lists the year in which a word first appears in the English language. For “hell” that year is about 825 AD. In that period, Norse and Danes were pouring into the eastern part of Britain, and the Danelaw resulted. New Nordic words were coming into use as well as Nordic rule, and “hel” was one such word. Here’s a sampling from related languages:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic – halja

It’s useful to know that the original meaning of such words was “to hide, to cover” used as verbs, and “hidden, covered” used as adjectives – a reference to the grave, but not to the common understanding of hell. We pick up breadcrumbs in the 1611 KJV, where we see “hell,” and also “hel,” used twice. We see “hel” a lot more in “Beowulf,” which was written in Old English – in fact, it was the Anglo-Saxon language, spoken also on the continent. Under the baptized veneer of the story is a pagan subtext, and the Angles and Saxons were pagans if you go very far back in time. Note in the list above that Old Norse shared “hel” with Old English/Anglo Saxon, so maybe that breadcrumb could lead to something in the culture of Old Norway.

In Norse mythology, we find paydirt – the Norse believed that if you did not rate going to Valhalla when you died, you would spend th,e afterlife in Helheim, or “House of Hel.” Hel was the ruler of Helheim, they thought, and was thought to be a goddess or ogress, and very ugly.

2. Have you ever seen a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist hell? It is all too familiar: fire, demons and the suffering damned in scenes of torture and misery. The Islamic hell is much like it, but less inventive. Some other religions have a hell, and some don’t.

The witness of helling

As I said, “hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, “to hide or cover.” My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench deeper than the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shovelling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called “helling the potatoes.” Going to Hell, then, just means going into the ground...or the grave.

The witness of truth

So – having tracked hell down to its likely source in pagan mythology/religion, what should we believe? God has some cheery news for us: the Jubilee. Every 49 years, at a set time, everyone who had fallen into slavery was freed, and had land and possessions returned – see Leviticus 25:8-13. Are you mired in sin? Aren’t we all? The Bible tells us to resist sin, the flesh, the adversary...but so few seem to overcome in this life. However, do not despair – the same Book has the solution: Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

This is our Jubilee – after a lifetime as slaves to sin, we are freed! How do we know we are all saved? First Corinthians 15:28 tells us, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Yes, “all” in this verse really means ALL – you, me and everyone! Jesus the Christ really is the Savior of the World, in fact, of the entire created Cosmos. I need to add that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, and is not ID’d as Hell in the Revelation. After a long word study on “fire” in the Bibe, which is beyond the scope of this short essay, I concluded that all mentions of fire in the Bible are either natural fire or a manifestation of God, or as I like to call it, Godfire. Therefore, I am compelled to see the Lake of Fire as Godfire, which is both punitive, corrective and transformatinal. I will leave you with First Corinthians 3:15 - “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

OT concept of Heaven as an afterlife is missing as well. You will find sheol is the best fit and it can be described as an indescriminate place of the dead where all must go through. I liken it as a closed door, and only when you open it do you see the pathways. "Hell" is an unfortunate word but biblical use of Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus are all based on Greek and Jewish mythology and we are rescued from these places, you should check out more updates versions of the bible as the catch all translation of hell is no longer used. Where I admit most of our concepts of Hell are not biblical and more based on Dante's inferno (which was based on the book of Enoch) misuse is not a reason to say it doesn't exist. I'm really not sure what it's like but I know it's an undesired place that we are rescued from.

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2020

public hermit said:
Honestly, I didn't read what you wrote (I still haven't). I only needed the first lines of what you wrote to me to get the drift. I guess I got lucky. I'm surprised what I said would be considered "radical UR nonsense." Is it radical to be taken aback by someone who passionately defends ECT? The energetic/uncompromising defense strikes me as odd. Is that radical? I don't think so. My suggestion was the passionate defender could take a less than energetic approach. It is hell, after all.
Since you have my attention, let me ask you. Would it bother you if God chose to be gracious to all (assuming said grace was made effective through Jesus Christ)? Would that upset you, or would you be overjoyed? If there's a third option that better suits you, that's fine. I'm just curious.

Whatever God chooses to do would not offend me but unlike "eternal punishment" which clearly appears in scripture I cannot find UR clearly stated anywhere in the Bible.

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2020

DamianWarS said:
OT concept of Heaven as an afterlife is missing as well. You will find sheol is the best fit and it can be described as an indescriminate place of the dead where all must go through. I liken it as a closed door, and only when you open it do you see the pathways. "Hell" is an unfortunate word but biblical use of Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus are all based on Greek and Jewish mythology and we are rescued from these places, you should check out more updates versions of the bible as the catch all translation of hell is no longer used. Where I admit most of our concepts of Hell are not biblical and more based on Dante's inferno (which was based on the book of Enoch) misuse is not a reason to say it doesn't exist. I'm really not sure what it's like but I know it's an undesired place that we are rescued from.

Nonsense! Your unsupported opinion notwithstanding. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

Gregorikos · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
So, hell appears to be uncreated,

You didn't look very well.

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; Matthew 25:41 (NRSV)

GirdYourLoins · Jul 27, 2020

My view of Heaven is the place where we are in Gods presence and the overwhelming presence is the perfect love of God. Where we will not able to help ourselves but to cry out in worship.

Hell is the place that is separated from teh love of God.Whoever is in Hell will be aware of what they are missing which is why it is called the place of whaling and gnashing of teeth It will be the regret of being separated from God's love that will be paramount. Then we have verses such as the rich man and Abraham where it says about the fire in hades and somewhere it says about worms eating those who are there, but even so I see the separation from God as being the real "punishment".

And in regard to the universal salvation above, believe that God gives everyone the chance to accept salvation but some people choose not to accept the free gift and reject God, they are the people who are separated from Him.

chilehed · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny?

Absolutely. It may not conform to your fallible personal interpretation, but who the heck are you that I should ignore what's been taught since the time of the Apostles merely because you think you know better?

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
Nonsense! Your unsupported opinion notwithstanding. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

I'm not saying "hell" is a myth (I'm actually not quite sure of your specific disagreement, that's just what I got out of your post) I am saying that the development of a place called Gehenna is filled more with ignorance than of knowledge hence the reason why I can it a place of Jewish mythology as it's rooted in real history that's long gone but the place and spirit still continue. This is not a place people understand and concrete parallels are adopted (a real place in history) those parallels however should be taken abstractly but when taken concretely it's mythology, akin to saying Dante's infero is the best source of what hell is.

Scripture is not clear on this place in OT use and it's irresponsible to say it is, like always NT shows the revelation but what is clear is NT use has no problems with adopting other names, even pagan names (hades is a name of a pagan god of the dead). This tells me there is no proper name for this place and if "Gehenna" is it then they would have used a transliteration of it in Greek if it were important but then what are we saying it was called before gehenna? We get hung up with names so much we miss the point like saying Lucifer is the proper name of Satan. It's a contextual name and used abstractly but we miss the point when we search the scriptures to find the specific nuanced meaning of Gehenna; it's connection is abstract reflecting its depravity and it's not a concrete connection, a concrete connection is mythology.

Jesus is YHWH · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
Whatever God chooses to do would not offend me but unlike "eternal punishment" which clearly appears in scripture I cannot find UR clearly stated anywhere in the Bible.

Yes we like to believe in the everlasting life, bliss and well being of the righteous but the scriptures use the same word everlasting for the punishment of the wicked and that their torment never ends. Most people like to pick and choose what to believe that fits into their own system and reject the the things they don't like and make excuses for God.

Gods word is clear there is both everlasting/eternal bliss for the righteous and eternal torment/punishment for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!

dms1972 · Jul 27, 2020

JackRT said:
Beyond what you so well stated above the concept of hell is nowhere to be found in the Bible. There are concepts like Gehenna, Hades and Sheole that translators have rendered as "hell" but none of those terms convey the modern understanding of hell. It seems our modern understanding of the term is actually a blend of those three ancient terms plus a whole lot of Medieval understandings especially Dante's "Inferno".

IMHO there is no hell.

What is the "second death" mentioned in Revelation?

eleos1954 · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny?

Most folks listen to their priest/preacher/minister and also read their Bibles, and most of the time they hear or see “Hell” mentioned, and accept it as a given, in a prima facie sense. I ask you, however, is it so? Does this word and concept belong in the Bible? Does it really belong in t,he theology of so many churches? Let’s dig down into the “infernum” of our subject, “infernum” simply meaning originally that which is below...or simply underground.

The witness of the creation accounts

In Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell. Chapter 1 goes on to state six times that the creation was good, the last time VERY good. The existence of hell would have made it less good, but then, that was before the Fall, so it may not apply. If God made it later, it is not mentioned anywhere, but don’t believe me – examine this list of scriptures mentioning creation:

Exodus 20:11

Isaiah 40:26

Isaiah 45:7-8, 18

Mark 10:6

John 1:1-5

Romans 1:20,25

Romans 8:19-22

I Corinthians 8:6

II Corinthians 5:17

Ephesians 2:10

Colossians 1:16-17, 20

Hebrews 11:3

Revelation 4:11

In Isaiah 45:7 we see a mention of light and darkness, but this is not a hint of hell, if someone were hoping so, for darkness is simply where the light has yet to penetrate.

So, hell appears to be uncreated, but there is more.

The witness of the translated terms

We will find the origin of hell presently, but first let’s look at the words and terms it was translated from.

1. Sheol

“Sheol” is is from the Hebrew, and generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. It is translated in the KJV and probably other translations into one of three words: grave, pit (about half) or hell (about half). Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have very well let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. I suppose they needed some support for the hell doctrine in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go that way.

I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the “hell” list mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” half.

We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” half.Splatter Pak PsalmSplatter Pak 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

2. Hades

“Hades” is the best Greek eqivalent for the Hebrew term “sheol.” However, it is a pagan word from a pagan culture, and thus, brought in some unfortunate theological baggage. It is translated as “hell” consistently in most Bibles, except for one instance. I wondered if it were a matter of context, so I examined all eleven instances of the word, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when “hades” was rendered as “grave,” was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul’s taunt of, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” follows after Hosea 13:14 – “O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction…”. If either were rendered as “hell,” it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.

The last two instances of “hades” to “hell” are in the Revelation, 20:13-14. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – “hades,” in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what my Bible’s references suggest. The translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – hell delivering up its dead, and hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine. Using “grave” or “sheol” would have cleared up the problems.

3. Gehenna

“Gehenna” is used in the Bible some twelve times, depending on the version, and refers to a physical place in the real world that you can visit today. In the OT, it was the “Valley of the Sons of Hinnom,” where children were sacrificed to idols. The form we read in the NT is a Greek transliteration. Now since it is a place in the real world, a fact no one can dispute, I believe its translation as “hell” is NOT justified.

4. Tartarus

This is yet another pagan word from a pagan culture, and only used once, in II Peter 2:4. For the Greeks, it was a prison for the Titans and some people - to Peter, it was a prison for some spirit beings. Should we really hang a doctrine on the single use of a term?

Further, if these four terms were NOT translated as ”hell,” would any of us have suspected such a place, such an outcome? If we take the Bible at face value, how do we explain God failing to tell us that He made the place? How we view God’s sketchy warnings – why did He warn Adam and Eve of only death...if hell were a real place? The warnings He gave to many after that follow the same pattern: simple death was the only listed outcome.

So, examination of the four underlying words translated to “hell” fails to support the concept, especially as two of them are pagan terms. So let’s move on to...

The witness of paganism

You the reader may be wondering something like “What the hell?” and I fully sympathize. Where did this word “hell” come from, anyway? Happily, we have some bread crumbs. Not only do we have the help of our Bible’s marginal references, telling us to “see sheol,” “see hades,” “see gehenna,” and “see tartarus” - we have the following:

1. I have an Oxford English Dictionary, and it lists the year in which a word first appears in the English language. For “hell” that year is about 825 AD. In that period, Norse and Danes were pouring into the eastern part of Britain, and the Danelaw resulted. New Nordic words were coming into use as well as Nordic rule, and “hel” was one such word. Here’s a sampling from related languages:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic – halja

It’s useful to know that the original meaning of such words was “to hide, to cover” used as verbs, and “hidden, covered” used as adjectives – a reference to the grave, but not to the common understanding of hell. We pick up breadcrumbs in the 1611 KJV, where we see “hell,” and also “hel,” used twice. We see “hel” a lot more in “Beowulf,” which was written in Old English – in fact, it was the Anglo-Saxon language, spoken also on the continent. Under the baptized veneer of the story is a pagan subtext, and the Angles and Saxons were pagans if you go very far back in time. Note in the list above that Old Norse shared “hel” with Old English/Anglo Saxon, so maybe that breadcrumb could lead to something in the culture of Old Norway.

In Norse mythology, we find paydirt – the Norse believed that if you did not rate going to Valhalla when you died, you would spend th,e afterlife in Helheim, or “House of Hel.” Hel was the ruler of Helheim, they thought, and was thought to be a goddess or ogress, and very ugly.

2. Have you ever seen a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist hell? It is all too familiar: fire, demons and the suffering damned in scenes of torture and misery. The Islamic hell is much like it, but less inventive. Some other religions have a hell, and some don’t.

The witness of helling

As I said, “hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, “to hide or cover.” My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench deeper than the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shovelling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called “helling the potatoes.” Going to Hell, then, just means going into the ground...or the grave.

The witness of truth

So – having tracked hell down to its likely source in pagan mythology/religion, what should we believe? God has some cheery news for us: the Jubilee. Every 49 years, at a set time, everyone who had fallen into slavery was freed, and had land and possessions returned – see Leviticus 25:8-13. Are you mired in sin? Aren’t we all? The Bible tells us to resist sin, the flesh, the adversary...but so few seem to overcome in this life. However, do not despair – the same Book has the solution: Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

This is our Jubilee – after a lifetime as slaves to sin, we are freed! How do we know we are all saved? First Corinthians 15:28 tells us, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Yes, “all” in this verse really means ALL – you, me and everyone! Jesus the Christ really is the Savior of the World, in fact, of the entire created Cosmos. I need to add that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, and is not ID’d as Hell in the Revelation. After a long word study on “fire” in the Bibe, which is beyond the scope of this short essay, I concluded that all mentions of fire in the Bible are either natural fire or a manifestation of God, or as I like to call it, Godfire. Therefore, I am compelled to see the Lake of Fire as Godfire, which is both punitive, corrective and transformatinal. I will leave you with First Corinthians 3:15 - “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

Hell is the grave and His Word is very clear on the matter.

The Grave

As the place of the dead, sheol designates the grave, where a corpse is deposited. Some Bible translations render it as “grave” (e.g., Gen. 42:38; 44:29; 1 Kings 2:9; Ps. 49:14; 55:15, NLT).2 Good and bad people descend to sheol/the grave or tomb (e.g., Gen. 44:31), although the main emphasis is on the descent of the wicked (e.g., Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17). It is “the place [literally, “house”] appointed for all the living” (Job 30:23, NIV; cf. 17:13). In the New Testament Jesus Himself went to hades by being placed in a grave (Acts 2:31). The natural association between grave and death is indicated by using sheol as a synonym for “death” (Isa. 28:15, 18), and by phrases such as “to go down to sheol/the grave” (Gen. 37:35; Job 21:13) and “bring down to sheol/the grave” (1 Sam. 2:6) in the sense of “to die.” Usually a person dies and goes into sheol, but occasionally people “go down alive” into the grave, that is to say, they die in an unusual way (Num. 16:30, 33; Ps. 55:15).

Everybody who dies earthly death is in the grave and awaits His return. All will be resurrected either in the 1st resurrection (the saved - at HIs return) or later the 2nd -of the lost.

Nobody is burning in hell ... they are dormant in the grave.

Gregorikos · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny?

Most folks listen to their priest/preacher/minister and also read their Bibles, and most of the time they hear or see “Hell” mentioned, and accept it as a given, in a prima facie sense. I ask you, however, is it so? Does this word and concept belong in the Bible? Does it really belong in t,he theology of so many churches? Let’s dig down into the “infernum” of our subject, “infernum” simply meaning originally that which is below...or simply underground.

The witness of the creation accounts

In Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell. Chapter 1 goes on to state six times that the creation was good, the last time VERY good. The existence of hell would have made it less good, but then, that was before the Fall, so it may not apply. If God made it later, it is not mentioned anywhere, but don’t believe me – examine this list of scriptures mentioning creation:

Exodus 20:11

Isaiah 40:26

Isaiah 45:7-8, 18

Mark 10:6

John 1:1-5

Romans 1:20,25

Romans 8:19-22

I Corinthians 8:6

II Corinthians 5:17

Ephesians 2:10

Colossians 1:16-17, 20

Hebrews 11:3

Revelation 4:11

In Isaiah 45:7 we see a mention of light and darkness, but this is not a hint of hell, if someone were hoping so, for darkness is simply where the light has yet to penetrate.

So, hell appears to be uncreated, but there is more.

The witness of the translated terms

We will find the origin of hell presently, but first let’s look at the words and terms it was translated from.

1. Sheol

“Sheol” is is from the Hebrew, and generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. It is translated in the KJV and probably other translations into one of three words: grave, pit (about half) or hell (about half). Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have very well let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. I suppose they needed some support for the hell doctrine in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go that way.

I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the “hell” list mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” half.

We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” half.Splatter Pak PsalmSplatter Pak 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

2. Hades

“Hades” is the best Greek eqivalent for the Hebrew term “sheol.” However, it is a pagan word from a pagan culture, and thus, brought in some unfortunate theological baggage. It is translated as “hell” consistently in most Bibles, except for one instance. I wondered if it were a matter of context, so I examined all eleven instances of the word, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when “hades” was rendered as “grave,” was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul’s taunt of, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” follows after Hosea 13:14 – “O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction…”. If either were rendered as “hell,” it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.

The last two instances of “hades” to “hell” are in the Revelation, 20:13-14. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – “hades,” in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what my Bible’s references suggest. The translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – hell delivering up its dead, and hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine. Using “grave” or “sheol” would have cleared up the problems.

3. Gehenna

“Gehenna” is used in the Bible some twelve times, depending on the version, and refers to a physical place in the real world that you can visit today. In the OT, it was the “Valley of the Sons of Hinnom,” where children were sacrificed to idols. The form we read in the NT is a Greek transliteration. Now since it is a place in the real world, a fact no one can dispute, I believe its translation as “hell” is NOT justified.

4. Tartarus

This is yet another pagan word from a pagan culture, and only used once, in II Peter 2:4. For the Greeks, it was a prison for the Titans and some people - to Peter, it was a prison for some spirit beings. Should we really hang a doctrine on the single use of a term?

Further, if these four terms were NOT translated as ”hell,” would any of us have suspected such a place, such an outcome? If we take the Bible at face value, how do we explain God failing to tell us that He made the place? How we view God’s sketchy warnings – why did He warn Adam and Eve of only death...if hell were a real place? The warnings He gave to many after that follow the same pattern: simple death was the only listed outcome.

So, examination of the four underlying words translated to “hell” fails to support the concept, especially as two of them are pagan terms. So let’s move on to...

The witness of paganism

You the reader may be wondering something like “What the hell?” and I fully sympathize. Where did this word “hell” come from, anyway? Happily, we have some bread crumbs. Not only do we have the help of our Bible’s marginal references, telling us to “see sheol,” “see hades,” “see gehenna,” and “see tartarus” - we have the following:

1. I have an Oxford English Dictionary, and it lists the year in which a word first appears in the English language. For “hell” that year is about 825 AD. In that period, Norse and Danes were pouring into the eastern part of Britain, and the Danelaw resulted. New Nordic words were coming into use as well as Nordic rule, and “hel” was one such word. Here’s a sampling from related languages:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic – halja

It’s useful to know that the original meaning of such words was “to hide, to cover” used as verbs, and “hidden, covered” used as adjectives – a reference to the grave, but not to the common understanding of hell. We pick up breadcrumbs in the 1611 KJV, where we see “hell,” and also “hel,” used twice. We see “hel” a lot more in “Beowulf,” which was written in Old English – in fact, it was the Anglo-Saxon language, spoken also on the continent. Under the baptized veneer of the story is a pagan subtext, and the Angles and Saxons were pagans if you go very far back in time. Note in the list above that Old Norse shared “hel” with Old English/Anglo Saxon, so maybe that breadcrumb could lead to something in the culture of Old Norway.

In Norse mythology, we find paydirt – the Norse believed that if you did not rate going to Valhalla when you died, you would spend th,e afterlife in Helheim, or “House of Hel.” Hel was the ruler of Helheim, they thought, and was thought to be a goddess or ogress, and very ugly.

2. Have you ever seen a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist hell? It is all too familiar: fire, demons and the suffering damned in scenes of torture and misery. The Islamic hell is much like it, but less inventive. Some other religions have a hell, and some don’t.

The witness of helling

As I said, “hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, “to hide or cover.” My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench deeper than the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shovelling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called “helling the potatoes.” Going to Hell, then, just means going into the ground...or the grave.

The witness of truth

So – having tracked hell down to its likely source in pagan mythology/religion, what should we believe? God has some cheery news for us: the Jubilee. Every 49 years, at a set time, everyone who had fallen into slavery was freed, and had land and possessions returned – see Leviticus 25:8-13. Are you mired in sin? Aren’t we all? The Bible tells us to resist sin, the flesh, the adversary...but so few seem to overcome in this life. However, do not despair – the same Book has the solution: Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

This is our Jubilee – after a lifetime as slaves to sin, we are freed! How do we know we are all saved? First Corinthians 15:28 tells us, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Yes, “all” in this verse really means ALL – you, me and everyone! Jesus the Christ really is the Savior of the World, in fact, of the entire created Cosmos. I need to add that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, and is not ID’d as Hell in the Revelation. After a long word study on “fire” in the Bibe, which is beyond the scope of this short essay, I concluded that all mentions of fire in the Bible are either natural fire or a manifestation of God, or as I like to call it, Godfire. Therefore, I am compelled to see the Lake of Fire as Godfire, which is both punitive, corrective and transformatinal. I will leave you with First Corinthians 3:15 - “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

It's a shame that you go to all that work, yet completely ignore the many Bible references to the place we know as hell. Here is but one example:

“I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that can do nothing more. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! Luke 12:4-5 (NRSV)

Jesus said that after a person dies it is a real possibility they can be thrown into hell, and that such a fate is worse than death itself. This verse alone ought to be the end of the discussion. Can you believe the plain meaning of that text or can you not?

But there are many more.

Matthew 25:46 makes it clear that there are two possible outcomes- eternal punishment or eternal life. Daniel 12:2 says the same idea. Acts 24:15; Romans 2:7-8 also support this concept.

Matthew 13:40-43; Matthew 18:8-9 Mark 9:43-48; Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8 also support the idea of ECT in the place we call hell. In all your research did you not consider any of these?

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2020

DamianWarS said:
I'm not saying "hell" is a myth (I'm actually not quite sure of your specific disagreement, that's just what I got out of your post) I am saying that the development of a place called Gehenna is filled more with ignorance than of knowledge hence the reason why I can it a place of Jewish mythology as it's rooted in real history that's long gone but the place and spirit still continue. This is not a place people understand and concrete parallels are adopted (a real place in history) those parallels however should be taken abstractly but when taken concretely it's mythology, akin to saying Dante's infero is the best source of what hell is.
Scripture is not clear on this place in OT use and it's irresponsible to say it is, like always NT shows the revelation but what is clear is NT use has no problems with adopting other names, even pagan names (hades is a name of a pagan god of the dead). This tells me there is no proper name for this place and if "Gehenna" is it then they would have used a transliteration of it in Greek if it were important but then what are we saying it was called before gehenna? We get hung up with names so much we miss the point like saying Lucifer is the proper name of Satan. It's a contextual name and used abstractly but we miss the point when we search the scriptures to find the specific nuanced meaning of Gehenna; it's connection is abstract reflecting its depravity and it's not a concrete connection, a concrete connection is mythology.

I see a lot of assumptions/presuppositions and vague empty references. I quoted three [3] Jewish sources which clearly stated their beliefs, which you have evidently dismissed out of hand because they contradict those assumptions/presuppositions.
It is most unfortunate that the ancient Jews did not consult with you before they decided to name the place of fiery, eternal punishment. As I said long before NT times they referred to that place of punishment as sheol and Ge hinnom, which were translated hades and Gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
Here is more evidence for you to ignore.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
EOB, footnote pg. 180

“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be
confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”

= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.

Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
This shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Yes we like to believe in the everlasting life, bliss and well being of the righteous but the scriptures use the same word everlasting for the punishment of the wicked and that their torment never ends. Most people like to pick and choose what to believe that fits into their own system and reject the the things they don't like and make excuses for God.

Gods word is clear there is both everlasting/eternal bliss for the righteous and eternal torment/punishment for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!

If the antithesis of everlasting life is everlasting death what does that look like or feel like? Does it mean you're dead forever or can we paradoxically be aware we are dead and get to feel death forever? Eternity is hard enough to grasp but since I am alive it everlasting life seems a little easier to grasp than everlasting death.

Jesus is YHWH · Jul 27, 2020

DamianWarS said:
If the antithesis of everlasting life is everlasting death what does that look like or feel like? Does it mean you're dead forever or can we paradoxically be aware we are dead and get to feel death forever? Eternity is hard enough to grasp but since I am alive it everlasting life seems a little easier to grasp than everlasting death.

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matt 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matt 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matt 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Rev 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Got ?

hope this helps !!!

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2020

dms1972 said:
What is the "second death" mentioned in Revelation?

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says 8 groups of people “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be
confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”

The bible does not confirm these details. Biblical authority does not show us layers of hades, you are getting trapped with sources linked back to enoch or worse dante's inferno. Gehenna is not without doubt linked to the lake of fire. Contary to popular belief we know very little as to what hell looks like but you seem to want to base your views of the place from extra biblical sources.

The account of Lazarus is a parable, "Abraham's bosom" is indeed a place, that place is next to Abraham (at his bosom) but it is not a name of a layer of hades which has absolutely no scripture backing. Lazarus is shown as a true son of Abraham and only a true son is worthy to have the embrace of Abraham at his bosom which is the point. The rich man conversely is rejected as a son of Abraham and is in torment. The text is deliberately flipping the expectation and even not naming the rich man but naming Lazarus is at the expense of the rich man. The text also foreshadows Christ's own death and subsequent resurrection (not to mention Christ only spoke to the crowds in parables). It is exactly what a parable should look like.

Hades/heaven are spiritual places yet the text shows us vivid concrete images but how does this cross from physical to spiritual? Is there spiritual fire, a spiritual chasm, a spiritual bosom? Are these things felt or seen? The purpose of the text is not to show us what hell looks like and it's use of imagery are parallels for things we can only understand through the physical so it uses the physical to communicate these abstract qualities but we shouldn't be so bound by these images.

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matt 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matt 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matt 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Rev 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Got ?

hope this helps !!!

OT references cannot support these advanced concepts of hell. The word it uses is sheol and sheol is an indescriminate place of the dead where all pass through, it is a place or ignorance not a place of knowledge. Abraham went to sheol, as did Jacob and David, but so did David's enemies and what it really means is death was a closed door and no one knew what was behind it.

Your references shows hell as a place of darkness, a place of weeping, a place of fire, place of decomposition, a place where you are thrown into etc.... These are all physical qualities that aren't exactly very consistent, namely fire and darkness, yet both are true. They seem to have more abstract qualities to them for example is darkness literal darkness? Is fire literal fire? Is the worm a literal worm? If there is a hint of a "I don't know" then the next is also reasonable to wonder if eternal is literal too? I recognize the abstract imagery but also see that this means we know extremely little about hell so I rather point out the scripture then say... I dunno, it's up to God. The goal is to be saved from the place not to have a clear image of what hell is. I'm not saying I don't believe in hell, I'm saying we cannot know what it is unless we go there, I'll take scripture as a strong warning to avoid it, I don't care what it looks like.

Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

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