The Great Tribulation: 66-70 AD, or

shilohsfoal

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I haven't "made up my mind" about it, but I have thought about the possibility that the beast from the earth with two horns like a lamb could very well be an Israel who has decided its "messiah" (who is not Jesus) has come, and its "messianic age" has come, and be persecuting Israeli Jews who believe in Jesus.

Also, Revelation 7 has multitudes of all peoples, nations and tongues - who had come out of great tribulation - in heaven, worshiping God. There's no reason, actually, to assume these are the same as the souls John saw as living and reigning with Christ after having being beheaded for their witness of Christ and refusal to receive the mark of the beast.

There are things I havnt made my mind up about either. I'm leaning toward believing the two witnesses are represented by the two horns of the second beast but I'm not yet convinced of it.
Some things just take time.
 
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Timtofly

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I don't believe the church as the term is often used is a race.But that perticular group that would be a kingdom of priests would be in Christ.(the church).

Those to whom it was first spoken(exodus 19:6) all died in the wilderness without ever being born again. How likely are they to see the kingdom of God?But that's not to say thier descendents wouldnt be those mentioned in 1 Peter 2:9.

To be honest with you, I believe something most people don't believe. I believe all of those who are resurrected in the first resurrection, who did not worship the beast or his image, are all Israelis.

I also believe these saints mentioned in this verse are all Israelis.
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever--yes, forever and ever.'
Because I believe the little horn that persecutes them is our modern day country called Israel.

Time will soon tell if I'm right or wrong about this.
I do not think it matters. You would also have to accept the church is gone in the 6th seal. The Trumpets are the harvest of strictly the house of Jacob. Not just the modern state. There are still millions of Israelites, modern Hebrews scattered all over the earth. The 144k is not the total. The 144k are the ones turning the hearts and minds of humans all over, not just in the ME. What the church failed to harvest, the 144K will harvest in the Trumpets and perhaps the Thunderings. This harvest after the 7th Seal, is going to be the dead bones brought back to life, and those beheaded for not taking the mark are included. They all have to die first and their carcasses cleaned out by the birds and fowls.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes... the Chosen, Holy Nation of Royal Priests:

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Yes, for the next 1000 years many will live out this promise.
 
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shilohsfoal

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I do not think it matters. You would also have to accept the church is gone in the 6th seal. The Trumpets are the harvest of strictly the house of Jacob. Not just the modern state. There are still millions of Israelites, modern Hebrews scattered all over the earth. The 144k is not the total. The 144k are the ones turning the hearts and minds of humans all over, not just in the ME. What the church failed to harvest, the 144K will harvest in the Trumpets and perhaps the Thunderings. This harvest after the 7th Seal, is going to be the dead bones brought back to life, and those beheaded for not taking the mark are included. They all have to die first and their carcasses cleaned out by the birds and fowls.

You believe the church is going somewhere do you?
I understand christ said the wicked would be removed from his kingdom when he comes.
You believe the church is the wicked Christ was talking about?
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
 
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Timtofly

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That's purely Circular reasoning...

The Biblical approach would to accept the text at face value, understand Jesus and the Apostles could not be wrong about the 1st century timing, and therefore it must have taken place, on time, as prophesied.

And We know from scripture that Jesus Means for us to understand "near" in Human terms when he says something is "Near" and He does not mean thousands of years away..

Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Most of the church may never even have read Matthew until after 100AD. How could they have been warned in 70AD? That written warning would have been too late for most in the 1st century. If by chance a few had read or was told in 70AD I could see your point. The point that Jesus stressed was these things were supposed to be kept secret until after some of them did come to pass. We do not have enough historical data to put the canon into perspective let alone what was actually fulfilled or not. Josephus would have been the least biased for his people, because he defected to Rome. As for the church, he was not interested much in it either. You would think he would have at least written that the church failed, and a Messiah besides Jesus of Nazareth changed the world, and took over Rome. So nothing happened of import regarding the establishment of anything. The mountain that Daniel prophecied could never have been fulfilled until the Reformation. The 2nd century church filled the earth, but not like Daniel prophecied. The church filled the earth in the 1st and 2nd centuries, because the church obeyed God.
 
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Timtofly

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You believe the church is going somewhere do you?
I understand christ said the wicked would be removed from his kingdom when he comes.
You believe the church is the wicked Christ was talking about?
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
The church will be restored to Adam's Paradise. John does not put it on earth during the harvest. It would get in the way. Only time will tell where Paradise is for the next 1000 years. We tend to think the OT people waited 3000 to 3500 years just to come back to earth. Pretty silly to think that after 2000 years in Paradise one would want to leave. We are not our own, but bought with a price, the precious blood of Christ. We are sojourners and pilgrims in this world. This world is not our home, we are just passing through.
 
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shilohsfoal

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The church will be restored to Adam's Paradise. John does not put it on earth during the harvest. It would get in the way. Only time will tell where Paradise is for the next 1000 years. We tend to think the OT people waited 3000 to 3500 years just to come back to earth. Pretty silly to think that after 2000 years in Paradise one would want to leave. We are not our own, but bought with a price, the precious blood of Christ. We are sojourners and pilgrims in this world. This world is not our home, we are just passing through.

I take it you wouldn't even want to be in Christ's kingdom then.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
 
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Timtofly

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Which kingdom is that? I said we do not know where Paradise is during the Millennium. The point is the difference in having a biological body that reproduces biological offspring or a glorified body, that we know nothing about? The Calvinist seem to teach you do not even have a choice in the matter. Not that I am changing the subject. I want to be doing God’s will, not my own desires. And some here think I have a wild imagination.....

God put Adam in the Garden/Paradise. That pretty much indicates that those restored to Adam's created form as a son of God, and a descendant of Adam that Paradise is my home, no matter where Paradise is. If living on the earth and having offspring is your desire, then perhaps God will grant that to you? Is there a difference between being in God's temple and being in an earthly kingdom? Is there a difference between Revelation 7:9-17 and Revelation 20:6?
 
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parousia70

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Today the same people who had it before 70 AD has the kingdom again.
Pure speculation. You have no evidence of this. Nobody does. Not to mention it’s genetically impossible.
 
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claninja

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Parousia had made that accusation against another and the fact of the matter is it applies to him, not to any other he levels that accusation against.

Parousia never said the Apostles were wrong. Parousia only stated that futurists are forced to interpret that the apostles were wrong in regards to the time statements. 2 totally different things.

Your arguments remain ridiculous:

I could say the same subjective argument about yours. Let's try to avoid subjective arguments.

* The Lord said no one knows when the day or hour of his return is.


Not knowing the day nor hour does not all of the sudden change the definition of "soon", "near", or "at hand" to mean the polar opposite.

Therefore His return has been imminent since his ascension and will remain imminent until He returns.

Considering the actual definition of imminent, this statement is a logical fallacy.

So if your house was on fire, and you were inside this house at the time of a very serious fire, being in imminent danger then means you have 2,000 years to escape the fire?



Again, as futurists do, you are forced to spiritualize the actual of definition of "imminent" into "from God's point of view".

As I've already shown in a previous post, the Greek word translated as "soon" in the Revelation can also be translated as "these things when they come, will unfold speedily, will occur rapidly".

Revelation 1:1-3 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

No arguments here that "soon" in this passage can me "in quickness or speed". However, this does not address that the time was "near", which is defined as close or nearby in place or time.

Even if "soon" means in quickness or speedily in this passage, the time was near. Therefore, if the events of revelation were near to begin occurring, 2000 years is not quickly or speedily for these events to unfold over.

Therefore the futurist is again forced to change the meaning of speedily or quickly to be from "God's point of view" as 2,000 years is not speedily nor quick.



Your theory falls flat where Paul says the man of sin is he "whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming", where Paul teaches the church that Christ's return will not come before this, and this will not come before the apostasy, the falling way from the faith on the part of many Christians.

All you have following your "return of Christ" is a Christianity continuing to grow and be accepted in the Gentile world, to the point where it became the official religion of the Byzantine Empire, and of the Western Roman Empire, and of many nations, and was spread by missionaries into the Americas and Africa, and as far East as South Korea. You have NO falling away, no man of sin seated in the temple of God (unless you're talking about the Pope, which is a debatable claim), but you still have no falling away or man of sin seated in the Temple declaring himself to be God and being destroyed by Christ at His return.

Classic "whataboutism". Don't actually address that Paul stated they were living in the fulfillment of the ages (1 corinthians 10:11) or that the author of hebrews mentions Jesus' 1st advent was at the fulfillment of the ages (hebrews 9:26-27), but instead switch to "what about this: apostasy and man of sin".


1.) The apostasy influenced by the spirit of the antichrist was already underway in the 1st century as evidenced by John, and that's how they knew it was the last hour.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.


2.) "is restraining" is a present tense verb. Along with the adverb "now", we can see that the man of sin was then being restrained in the 1st century. So regardless of who or what the man of sin was, he or what was being restrained in the 1st century.

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.



 
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Timtofly

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Parousia never said the Apostles were wrong. Parousia only stated that futurists are forced to interpret that the apostles were wrong in regards to the time statements. 2 totally different things.



I could say the same subjective argument about yours. Let's try to avoid subjective arguments.




Not knowing the day nor hour does not all of the sudden change the definition of "soon", "near", or "at hand" to mean the polar opposite.



Considering the actual definition of imminent, this statement is a logical fallacy.

So if your house was on fire, and you were inside this house at the time of a very serious fire, being in imminent danger then means you have 2,000 years to escape the fire?



Again, as futurists do, you are forced to spiritualize the actual of definition of "imminent" into "from God's point of view".



Revelation 1:1-3 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

No arguments here that "soon" in this passage can me "in quickness or speed". However, this does not address that the time was "near", which is defined as close or nearby in place or time.

Even if "soon" means in quickness or speedily in this passage, the time was near. Therefore, if the events of revelation were near to begin occurring, 2000 years is not quickly or speedily for theses events to unfold over.

Therefore the futurist is again forced to change the meaning of speedily or quickly to be from "God's point of view" as 2,000 years is not speedily nor quick.





Classic "whataboutism". Don't actually address that Paul stated they were living in the fulfillment of the ages (1 corinthians 10:11) or that the author of hebrews mentions Jesus' 1st advent was at the fulfillment of the ages (hebrews 9:26-27), but instead switch to "what about this: apostasy and man of sin".


1.) The apostasy influenced by the spirit of the antichrist was already underway in the 1st century as evidenced by John, and that's how they knew it was the last hour.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.


2.) "is restraining" is a present tense verb. Along with the adverb "now", we can see that the man of sin was then being restrained in the 1st century. So regardless of who or what the man of sin was, he or what was being restrained in the 1st century.

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

People living today really have no say in what happened in the past. That is reality.

To make up silly scenarios in the past and forcing them onto current belief is denying reality. It is only a dream. A rather accusatory dream. It denies that there should even be a church age. Sorry, but the church age is reality, and no one can change that with rhetoric.
 
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Zao is life

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Revelation 1:1-3 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

No arguments here that "soon" in this passage can me "in quickness or speed". However, this does not address that the time was "near", which is defined as close or nearby in place or time.
Yet you argue.

I pointed out the fact that your theory falls flat where Paul says the man of sin is he "whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming", where Paul teaches the church that Christ's return will not come before this, and this will not come before the apostasy, the falling way from the faith on the part of many Christians,

yet what we see following your "return of Christ" is a Christianity continuing to grow and be accepted in the Gentile world, to the point where it became the official religion of the Byzantine Empire, and of the Western Roman Empire, and of many nations, and was spread by missionaries into the Americas and Africa, and as far East as South Korea.

You have NO falling away, no man of sin seated in the temple of God (unless you're talking about the Pope, which is a debatable claim), but you still have no falling away or man of sin seated in the Temple declaring himself to be God and being destroyed by Christ at His return.

Yet you argue:
Classic "whataboutism". Don't actually address that Paul stated they were living in the fulfillment of the ages (1 corinthians 10:11) or that the author of hebrews mentions Jesus' 1st advent was at the fulfillment of the ages (hebrews 9:26-27), but instead switch to "what about this: apostasy and man of sin".

1.) The apostasy influenced by the spirit of the antichrist was already underway in the 1st century as evidenced by John, and that's how they knew it was the last hour.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

2.) "is restraining" is a present tense verb. Along with the adverb "now", we can see that the man of sin was then being restrained in the 1st century. So regardless of who or what the man of sin was, he or what was being restrained in the 1st century.

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

You argument is classic "whataboutism". It's nothing more or less than pure deflection from the facts in attempt to escape the reality that Paul told us that Christ would only return after the apostasy, yet after this statement, Christianity continued to spread in the nations.

Heb 9:24-27 which you quote as though it supports your theory says,

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (Greek: kosmos): but now once in the consummation of the Ages hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

So at the time Paul wrote,

* Christ had died and risen again; and
* had ascended into heaven where He now appeared in the presence of God even for the people of Paul's day.

Yet Paul states that Christ died at the consummation of the Ages, which the YLT translates as "at the full end of the Ages".

So if the full end of the Ages had already come, then why is Paul still writing decades later that Christ who died and rose again and ascended into heaven now appears in the presence of God for us?

Why did Peter tell the Jews in the Acts,

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the Age began." (Acts 3:19-21).

Which Age began in the time of the prophets?

"He shall send Jesus Christ" = He (Jesus) shall return at the appointed time.

Why, when the apostles asked the Lord on the Mount of Olives if He would at that time "restore the Kingdom to Israel" (which Hebrews says occurred at the full end of the Ages), did Jesus reply,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:

Is it not because just over 40 days earlier Jesus had told them the same thing yet they had already forgotten what He said?

"and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive." (Mat 24:14)

The good news of the reign of Christ, fellow, had not gone into the world for a testimony to all nations by the time YOU say Christ came.

You are showing, in your arguments, very clearly the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. Exegesis results when all scripture is compared with all scripture, and the meaning of the verses you quote is interpreted in the light of all statements regarding the matter.

Eisegesis, which is what you are practicing in this regard, always results in false doctrine, because it isolates certain verses from the rest of scripture, and attempts to force a pre-decided meaning into those verses which is not there (which is EXACTLY what you are doing and have done).

There is an abundance of New Testament scripture which tells us that the Lord has not returned yet - Paul's statement regarding the fact that His return will not come until the apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revelaed, is only one of them.

However, you practice "what-if-ism" and deflect from the plain and obvious meanings of Paul's statements by assuming you know all that is contained in the meaning of phrases like "the cosummation of the Ages" and "in the fullness of time" (Galatians 4:4).

You may continue to deny the facts all you like, but you're only showing that you have no understanding of the fact that Christ came at the appointed time (the fullness of time) and at the consummation of the Ages died, rose again and ascended into heaven, and that He shall return, just as scripture states, at the appointed time - which is not before
* The gospel of the Kingdom of Christ has been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and not before
* The is an apostasy, a falling away from the faith, and the man of sin is revealed, who will seat himself in the temple of God claiming to be God, whom Christ shall destroy with the Spirit of His mouth and the brightness of His coming.

That man you won't even recognize, because you believe he already came.
 
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claninja

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I pointed out the fact that your theory falls flat where Paul says the man of sin is he "whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming", where Paul teaches the church that Christ's return will not come before this, and this will not come before the apostasy, the falling way from the faith on the part of many Christians,

And I agree with you that the coming of Christ would not occur prior to the man of sin and apostasy.


1.) The apostasy influenced by the spirit of the antichrist was already underway in the 1st century as evidenced by John, and that's how they knew it was the last hour. Thus we have scripture demonstrating the falling away in the last hour during the 1st century.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

2.) "Is restraining" is a present tense verb. Along with the adverb "now", we can see that the man of sin was then being restrained in the 1st century. So regardless of who or what the man of sin was, he or what was being restrained in the 1st century. Therefore we have scripture demonstrating the man of sin existed in the 1st century since he was present tense being restrained the 1st century.

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

yet what we see following your "return of Christ" is a Christianity continuing to grow and be accepted in the Gentile world, to the point where it became the official religion of the Byzantine Empire, and of the Western Roman Empire, and of many nations, and was spread by missionaries into the Americas and Africa, and as far East as South Korea.

You have NO falling away, no man of sin seated in the

What we see is that God came in judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad to take the kingdom away from the wicked tenants and give it to a nation producing its fruits

Matthew 21:40-45
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone.
This is from the Lord,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’k? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.lWhen the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them.

Jesus stated this destruction at the coming of the son of Man in judgment upon Israel would occur in their generation:
Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

This can be confirmed by James, who stated His coming was near, and that he is standing (present tense in the 1st century) at the door.

matthew 24:33 also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

here is what we are seeing today based on the gospel continuing to grow throughout the world:

Luke 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”


You have NO falling away, no man of sin seated in the temple of God (unless you're talking about the Pope, which is a debatable claim), but you still have no falling away or man of sin seated in the Temple declaring himself to be God and being destroyed by Christ at His return.
The is an apostasy, a falling away from the faith, and the man of sin is revealed, who will seat himself in the temple of God claiming to be God, whom Christ shall destroy with the Spirit of His mouth and the brightness of His coming

1.) John states otherwise. John specifically states they knew it was the last hour due to spirit of the antichrist being present and those going out from the body of Christ.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

2.). "is restraining" is a present tense verb. Thus Paul clearly states the man of sin was presently being restrained in his time, thus the man of sin existed in the 1st century.

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

You argument is classic "whataboutism". It's nothing more or less than pure deflection from the facts in attempt to escape the reality that Paul told us that Christ would only return after the apostasy, yet after this statement, Christianity continued to spread in the nations.

Whataboutism involves bringing an entirely different subject. What other subject did I bring in regards to your original deflection from addressing Paul believing he was living at the end of the age?

Heb 9:24-27 which you quote as though it supports your theory says,

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (Greek: kosmos): but now once in the consummation of the Ages hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

So at the time Paul wrote,

* Christ had died and risen again; and
* had ascended into heaven where He now appeared in the presence of God even for the people of Paul's day.

Yet Paul states that Christ died at the consummation of the Ages, which the YLT translates as "at the full end of the Ages".

So if the full end of the Ages had already come, then why is Paul still writing decades later that Christ who died and rose again and ascended into heaven now appears in the presence of God for us?

I would argue Because Paul believed his generation was living at the consummation of the ages, as evidenced by his words, and as evidenced by Christ's.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

The last days began with Christ, per Peter:

Acts 2:16-17 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,

Is it not because just over 40 days earlier Jesus had told them the same thing yet they had already forgotten what He said?

"and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive." (Mat 24:14)

The good news of the reign of Christ, fellow, had not gone into the world for a testimony to all nations by the time YOU say Christ came.
The gospel of the Kingdom of Christ has been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and not before

As demonstrated by Paul, the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven:

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Colossians 1:6 All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.

Romans 10:18 But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world

Why, when the apostles asked the Lord on the Mount of Olives if He would at that time "restore the Kingdom to Israel" (which Hebrews says occurred at the full end of the Ages), did Jesus reply,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:

Is it not because just over 40 days earlier Jesus had told them the same thing yet they had already forgotten what He said?

From that point on, when did the apostles, through the epistles, preach an earthly kingdom that natural Israel would be restored to?

However, you practice "what-if-ism" and deflect from the plain and obvious meanings of Paul's statements by assuming you know all that is contained in the meaning of phrases like "the cosummation of the Ages" and "in the fullness of time" (Galatians 4:4).

What "what-if-ism" statement did bring up?

You are showing, in your arguments, very clearly the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. Exegesis results when all scripture is compared with all scripture, and the meaning of the verses you quote is interpreted in the light of all statements regarding the matter.

Eisegesis, which is what you are practicing in this regard, always results in false doctrine, because it isolates certain verses from the rest of scripture, and attempts to force a pre-decided meaning into those verses which is not there (which is EXACTLY what you are doing and have done).

I could say the same subjective argument about you. So let's get specific: What beliefs have I not used scripture to back up in regards to your subjective argument of Eisesegesis on my part?

 
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And I agree with you that the coming of Christ would not occur prior to the man of sin and apostasy.


1.) The apostasy influenced by the spirit of the antichrist was already underway in the 1st century as evidenced by John, and that's how they knew it was the last hour. Thus we have scripture demonstrating the falling away in the last hour during the 1st century.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

2.) "Is restraining" is a present tense verb. Along with the adverb "now", we can see that the man of sin was then being restrained in the 1st century. So regardless of who or what the man of sin was, he or what was being restrained in the 1st century. Therefore we have scripture demonstrating the man of sin existed in the 1st century since he was present tense being restrained the 1st century.

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.



What we see is that God came in judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad to take the kingdom away from the and give it to a nation producing its fruits

Matthew 21:40-45
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone.
This is from the Lord,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’k? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.lWhen the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them.

Jesus stated this destruction at the coming of the son of Man in judgment upon Israel would occur in their generation:
Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

This can be confirmed by James, who stated His coming was near, and that he is standing (present tense in the 1st century) at the door.

matthew 24:33 also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

here is what we are seeing today based on the gospel continuing to grow throughout the world:

Luke 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”





1.) John states otherwise. John specifically states they knew it was the last hour due to spirit of the antichrist being present and those going out from the body of Christ.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

2.). "is restraining" is a present tense verb. Thus Paul clearly states the man of sin was presently being restrained in his time, thus the man of sin existed in the 1st century.

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.



Whataboutism involves bringing an entirely different subject. What other subject did I bring in regards to your original deflection from addressing Paul believing he was living at the end of the age?



I would argue Because Paul believed his generation was living at the consummation of the ages, as evidenced by his words, and as evidenced by Christ's.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

The last days began with Christ, per Peter:

Acts 2:16-17 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,




As demonstrated by Paul, the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven:

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Colossians 1:6 All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.

Romans 10:18 But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world



From that point on, when did the apostles, through the epistles, preach an earthly kingdom that natural Israel would be restored to?



What "what-if-ism" statement did bring up?



I could say the same subjective argument about you. So let's get specific: What beliefs have I not used scripture to back up in regards to your subjective argument of Eisesegesis on my part?
You are taking the "last hour of the Law" and applying it to the "last hour of the church."

How can you claim 70AD was the last hour for both? Are you saying there was no church at all for the last 1900 years? If the church was complete by 135AD, then there has been no church whatsoever since then. We have been in an uknown, nondescript period of time found no where in the Bible. No church, no Israel, nothing. Saying it is spiritual, means nothing at all. There is no unknown spiritual existence relative to us on earth. Even a spiritual and physical church ended by 135AD. How can something go on that ended? That makes no sense at all, but that is what we are to believe.
 
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claninja

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You are taking the "last hour of the Law" and applying it to the "last hour of the church."

What? where did I say 66-70ad was the "last hour of the church" ?

I never stated that nor do I believe that, so I have no Idea what you are talking about.....

But at least it seems we agree that the 66-70ad was the "last hour of the law"?

Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

How can you claim 70AD was the last hour for both?

I never claimed that 66-70ad was end of the Church.
 
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What? where did I say 66-70ad was the "last hour of the church" ?

I never stated that nor do I believe that, so I have no Idea what you are talking about.....

But at least it seems we agree that the 66-70ad was the "last hour of the law"?

Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

I never claimed that 66-70ad was end of the Church.
One has to be careful in specifying the second coming as not being in the generation of the first coming.

The church was not a speed bump on the horizon. The church would have to fulfill the NT covenant for as many centuries as God had planned out before the creation of the world. This point seems to be of great confusion to a majority of today's church.

The disciples were reiterating the OT prophets and literally pointing out that those prophecies were for that generation.

Now it is the apostate church's turn to accept like the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' Day, that the Gospel is being reiterated in their day. Modern theology is as removed from the NT gospel, as the religious beliefs of Jesus' day were removed from the Law and the prophets. The church is now in the same position. The kingdom and covenant will be taken away from the church and be given back to the house of Jacob.

Not because of apostasy or that the church rejected. It is again the fulness of time. An apostate church that rejected the Gospel is just natural evolution at work in human nature. The biggest sign that the end is here. That Satan has deceived us should be very evident.

As long as the church is still present she has the power to turn things around. It is only in repentance though and giving up theology, doctrine, and creeds, and trust only in God. It is through prayer and humbleness of one's will. It is not just to prepare herself, but to allow God’s grace to be carried out on a dying world.
 
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One has to be careful in specifying the second coming as not being in the generation of the first coming.

One should also recognize that the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad was a COMING of God, the vineyard owner, in judgment upon Israel.

Matthew 21:39-45
nd they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;d
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.

The disciples were reiterating the OT prophets and literally pointing out that those prophecies were for that generation.

Jesus and the apostles reiterated that the OT prophets spoke about their days:

Luke 26:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Acts 3:24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.

Luke 21:20-22 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Now it is the apostate church's turn to accept like the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' Day, that the Gospel is being reiterated in their day. Modern theology is as removed from the NT gospel, as the religious beliefs of Jesus' day were removed from the Law and the prophets. The church is now in the same position. The kingdom and covenant will be taken away from the church and be given back to the house of Jacob.

Not because of apostasy or that the church rejected. It is again the fulness of time. An apostate church that rejected the Gospel is just natural evolution at work in human nature. The biggest sign that the end is here. That Satan has deceived us should be very evident.

As long as the church is still present she has the power to turn things around. It is only in repentance though and giving up theology, doctrine, and creeds, and trust only in God. It is through prayer and humbleness of one's will. It is not just to prepare herself, but to allow God’s grace to be carried out on a dying world.

A lot of opinion, with no scripture to back it up.
 
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A lot of opinion, with no scripture to back it up.
That is funny seeing a lot here think Revelation does not even apply for today. Do you think the Bible deals with current events? Revelation 6 claims the first 3 seals have happened this year. You will just deny God's Word but quote random verses to prove your point.
 
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That is funny seeing a lot here think Revelation does not even apply for today. Do you think the Bible deals with current events? Revelation 6 claims the first 3 seals have happened this year. You will just deny God's Word but quote random verses to prove your point.

You claim the 1st 3 seals have happened this year. The Bible mentions nowhere that they are to occur in 2020.

how specially are the verses I posted random?
 
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You claim the 1st 3 seals have happened this year. The Bible mentions nowhere that they are to occur in 2020.

how specially are the verses I posted random?
The Bible points out a lot of practical facts that most overlook. Revelation 6 is very practical, yet most try to match it up with Daniel and it does not match up at all. Some refuse to view the seals as the practical end of the church. I guess Revelation 6 is just my practical opinion?
 
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