Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

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Lazarus Short

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Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny?



Most folks listen to their priest/preacher/minister and also read their Bibles, and most of the time they hear or see “Hell” mentioned, and accept it as a given, in a prima facie sense. I ask you, however, is it so? Does this word and concept belong in the Bible? Does it really belong in t,he theology of so many churches? Let’s dig down into the “infernum” of our subject, “infernum” simply meaning originally that which is below...or simply underground.



The witness of the creation accounts



In Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell. Chapter 1 goes on to state six times that the creation was good, the last time VERY good. The existence of hell would have made it less good, but then, that was before the Fall, so it may not apply. If God made it later, it is not mentioned anywhere, but don’t believe me – examine this list of scriptures mentioning creation:



Exodus 20:11

Isaiah 40:26

Isaiah 45:7-8, 18

Mark 10:6

John 1:1-5

Romans 1:20,25

Romans 8:19-22

I Corinthians 8:6

II Corinthians 5:17

Ephesians 2:10

Colossians 1:16-17, 20

Hebrews 11:3

Revelation 4:11

In Isaiah 45:7 we see a mention of light and darkness, but this is not a hint of hell, if someone were hoping so, for darkness is simply where the light has yet to penetrate.



So, hell appears to be uncreated, but there is more.



The witness of the translated terms



We will find the origin of hell presently, but first let’s look at the words and terms it was translated from.



1. Sheol



“Sheol” is is from the Hebrew, and generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. It is translated in the KJV and probably other translations into one of three words: grave, pit (about half) or hell (about half). Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have very well let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. I suppose they needed some support for the hell doctrine in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go that way.



I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the “hell” list mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” half.

We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” half.Splatter Pak PsalmSplatter Pak 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

2. Hades

“Hades” is the best Greek eqivalent for the Hebrew term “sheol.” However, it is a pagan word from a pagan culture, and thus, brought in some unfortunate theological baggage. It is translated as “hell” consistently in most Bibles, except for one instance. I wondered if it were a matter of context, so I examined all eleven instances of the word, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when “hades” was rendered as “grave,” was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul’s taunt of, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” follows after Hosea 13:14 – “O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction…”. If either were rendered as “hell,” it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.



The last two instances of “hades” to “hell” are in the Revelation, 20:13-14. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – “hades,” in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what my Bible’s references suggest. The translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – hell delivering up its dead, and hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine. Using “grave” or “sheol” would have cleared up the problems.

3. Gehenna

“Gehenna” is used in the Bible some twelve times, depending on the version, and refers to a physical place in the real world that you can visit today. In the OT, it was the “Valley of the Sons of Hinnom,” where children were sacrificed to idols. The form we read in the NT is a Greek transliteration. Now since it is a place in the real world, a fact no one can dispute, I believe its translation as “hell” is NOT justified.

4. Tartarus

This is yet another pagan word from a pagan culture, and only used once, in II Peter 2:4. For the Greeks, it was a prison for the Titans and some people - to Peter, it was a prison for some spirit beings. Should we really hang a doctrine on the single use of a term?

Further, if these four terms were NOT translated as ”hell,” would any of us have suspected such a place, such an outcome? If we take the Bible at face value, how do we explain God failing to tell us that He made the place? How we view God’s sketchy warnings – why did He warn Adam and Eve of only death...if hell were a real place? The warnings He gave to many after that follow the same pattern: simple death was the only listed outcome.

So, examination of the four underlying words translated to “hell” fails to support the concept, especially as two of them are pagan terms. So let’s move on to...

The witness of paganism

You the reader may be wondering something like “What the hell?” and I fully sympathize. Where did this word “hell” come from, anyway? Happily, we have some bread crumbs. Not only do we have the help of our Bible’s marginal references, telling us to “see sheol,” “see hades,” “see gehenna,” and “see tartarus” - we have the following:

1. I have an Oxford English Dictionary, and it lists the year in which a word first appears in the English language. For “hell” that year is about 825 AD. In that period, Norse and Danes were pouring into the eastern part of Britain, and the Danelaw resulted. New Nordic words were coming into use as well as Nordic rule, and “hel” was one such word. Here’s a sampling from related languages:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic – halja

It’s useful to know that the original meaning of such words was “to hide, to cover” used as verbs, and “hidden, covered” used as adjectives – a reference to the grave, but not to the common understanding of hell. We pick up breadcrumbs in the 1611 KJV, where we see “hell,” and also “hel,” used twice. We see “hel” a lot more in “Beowulf,” which was written in Old English – in fact, it was the Anglo-Saxon language, spoken also on the continent. Under the baptized veneer of the story is a pagan subtext, and the Angles and Saxons were pagans if you go very far back in time. Note in the list above that Old Norse shared “hel” with Old English/Anglo Saxon, so maybe that breadcrumb could lead to something in the culture of Old Norway.

In Norse mythology, we find paydirt – the Norse believed that if you did not rate going to Valhalla when you died, you would spend th,e afterlife in Helheim, or “House of Hel.” Hel was the ruler of Helheim, they thought, and was thought to be a goddess or ogress, and very ugly.

2. Have you ever seen a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist hell? It is all too familiar: fire, demons and the suffering damned in scenes of torture and misery. The Islamic hell is much like it, but less inventive. Some other religions have a hell, and some don’t.

The witness of helling

As I said, “hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, “to hide or cover.” My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench deeper than the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shovelling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called “helling the potatoes.” Going to Hell, then, just means going into the ground...or the grave.

The witness of truth

So – having tracked hell down to its likely source in pagan mythology/religion, what should we believe? God has some cheery news for us: the Jubilee. Every 49 years, at a set time, everyone who had fallen into slavery was freed, and had land and possessions returned – see Leviticus 25:8-13. Are you mired in sin? Aren’t we all? The Bible tells us to resist sin, the flesh, the adversary...but so few seem to overcome in this life. However, do not despair – the same Book has the solution: Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”


This is our Jubilee – after a lifetime as slaves to sin, we are freed! How do we know we are all saved? First Corinthians 15:28 tells us, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Yes, “all” in this verse really means ALL – you, me and everyone! Jesus the Christ really is the Savior of the World, in fact, of the entire created Cosmos. I need to add that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, and is not ID’d as Hell in the Revelation. After a long word study on “fire” in the Bibe, which is beyond the scope of this short essay, I concluded that all mentions of fire in the Bible are either natural fire or a manifestation of God, or as I like to call it, Godfire. Therefore, I am compelled to see the Lake of Fire as Godfire, which is both punitive, corrective and transformatinal. I will leave you with First Corinthians 3:15 - “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
 

Der Alte

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Mostly irrelevant post. The current meaning of a word any word is not necessarily the same as the root word. To think that is called the lexical fallacy, "Root fallacy."
A good example is "understand" it has nothing to do with being "under" anything nor "standing."

"The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. ... An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology."
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..That there were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia,
Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy,
Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of
how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said,
Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “
eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that
they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?


 
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JackRT

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Beyond what you so well stated above the concept of hell is nowhere to be found in the Bible. There are concepts like Gehenna, Hades and Sheole that translators have rendered as "hell" but none of those terms convey the modern understanding of hell. It seems our modern understanding of the term is actually a blend of those three ancient terms plus a whole lot of Medieval understandings especially Dante's "Inferno".

IMHO there is no hell.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Mostly irrelevant post.

That is as far as I got...or will get. I have spent too much time on this subject to be swayed by one post.
 
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SarahsKnight

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Yes, when we put aside the FICTIONS of Dante, Milton and Mary K Baxter, Hell has little support.

Unfortunately most traditional Christians can't seem to do that, though. =/
Just the other day one of my more elderly friends from my church posted on FB about Bill Weise's account of the Holy Spirit taking him out of his body to experience hell for 23 minutes, and she promoted it as Gospel truth. .... Sad. I chose not to fight her on it. I can only scream at brick walls for so long to point out that none of the blasphemous, Saw-style torture scenes that Bill spoke of seeing in his dream or hallucination or whatever it was supposed to be, are mentioned at all in Scripture, much less the general idea of immortal souls living forever in some kind of anguish and torment. Yet we are supposed to believe the accounts of a chosen few prophets who claim that the HOLY SPIRIT - called the COMFORTER - of all entities gave them a personal revelation on a subject as seemingly dire as what happens to the saved and/or the unsaved after their Earthly lives end, to allow the person to actually feel so much as a simulation of neverending pain (especially, mind you, when the receiver of the spiritual vision/experience is sometimes already a professing believer in Christ and thus should supposedly be saved from God's wrath against Evil)?
 
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Der Alte

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That is as far as I got...or will get. I have spent too much time on this subject to be swayed by one post.[/QUOTE]
You have wasted so much time. Like all the UR-ites before you, you have combed the 'net searching for anything which will support your assumptions/presuppositions. Unlike you I quoted historical sources which show that the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both "Ge hinnom" and "sheol." "Ge hinnom" is translated "Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX and NT. "Sheol" translated "hades" in the LXX and the NT. is Sources in my previous post. So your unsupported opinion means absolutely nothing.
Here is more credible historical evidence which you evidently have not made any attempt to read. There was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem but it was not the valley of Gehinnom but the Kidron valley.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
 
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Der Alte

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Unfortunately most traditional Christians can't seem to do that, though. =/
Just the other day one of my more elderly friends from my church posted on FB about Bill Weise's account of the Holy Spirit taking him out of his body to experience hell for 23 minutes, and she promoted it as Gospel truth. .... Sad. I chose not to fight her on it. I can only scream at brick walls for so long to point out that none of the blasphemous, Saw-style torture scenes that Bill spoke of seeing in his dream or hallucination or whatever it was supposed to be, are mentioned at all in Scripture, much less the general idea of immortal souls living forever in some kind of anguish and torment. Yet we are supposed to believe the accounts of a chosen few prophets who claim that the HOLY SPIRIT - called the COMFORTER - of all entities gave them a personal revelation on a subject as seemingly dire as what happens to the saved and/or the unsaved after their Earthly lives end, to allow the person to actually feel so much as a simulation of neverending pain (especially, mind you, when the receiver of the spiritual vision/experience is sometimes already a professing believer in Christ and thus should supposedly be saved from God's wrath against Evil)?
Rubbish!
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, when we put aside the FICTIONS of Dante, Milton and Mary K Baxter, Hell has little support.
And if we forget about the Biblical accounts. I know what modern day so-called UR scholars say but what did the early church say about this? Please feel free to give me more unsupported opinions of your favorite UR writers.
The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of
eternal death with punishment.
Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified?
A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From Clement of Rome (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments,
nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from
the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive
immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or,
if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape
the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
From Irenaeus (189AD)
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and
the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For
they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
From Tertullian (197AD)
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense
. (“Apology” 18:3)
Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)
If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35
From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)
 
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The passionate defense of hell (ECT) strikes me as odd. It should be a more subdued, an almost regrettable defense. Kind of like, "Yeah, I hate to say it, and I wish it wasn't true, but you may very well burn in hell. We hope not, but it seems highly likely given our best interpretation." But, instead, people get really upset at just the thought that God could possibly be gracious to all. It's as if their faith depended on the existence of hell. Strange.
 
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Der Alte

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The passionate defense of hell (ECT) strikes me as odd. It should be a more subdued, an almost regrettable defense. Kind of like, "Yeah, I hate to say it, and I wish it wasn't true, but you may very well burn in hell. We hope not, but it seems highly likely given our best interpretation." But, instead, people get really upset at just the thought that God could possibly be gracious to all. It's as if their faith depended on the existence of hell. Strange.
The usual radical UR nonsense. I quoted scripture and historical sources and you accuse me of being "upset" and "passionate defense of hell." Please show me where anything I quoted is incorrect? You can't do it, all I get are the unsupported opinions of UR-ites.….
…..
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
EOB, footnote pg. 180

“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be
confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”
= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = = = = =
KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
This shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”


 
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The usual radical UR nonsense. I quoted scripture and historical sources and you accuse me of being "upset" and "passionate defense of hell." Please show me where anything I quoted is incorrect? You can't do it, all I get are the unsupported opinions of UR-ites.….

Honestly, I didn't read what you wrote (I still haven't). I only needed the first lines of what you wrote to me to get the drift. I guess I got lucky. I'm surprised what I said would be considered "radical UR nonsense." Is it radical to be taken aback by someone who passionately defends ECT? The energetic/uncompromising defense strikes me as odd. Is that radical? I don't think so. My suggestion was the passionate defender could take a less than energetic approach. It is hell, after all.

Since you have my attention, let me ask you. Would it bother you if God chose to be gracious to all (assuming said grace was made effective through Jesus Christ)? Would that upset you, or would you be overjoyed? If there's a third option that better suits you, that's fine. I'm just curious.
 
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SarahsKnight

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But, instead, people get really upset at just the thought that God could possibly be gracious to all. It's as if their faith depended on the existence of hell. Strange.


I mean, it's almost like such people are saying "What?! You dare to believe that God will only permanently destroy/kill unbelievers instead of inflicting never-ending conscious pain? How dare you!?"
(I say it this way because I take the conditional immortality stance, although I do not completely discount universal reconciliation and would personally be delighted to see it be what truly happens in the end - because I'm not a sadistic vengeful psycho.)

... Is Dante's Inferno really what I am supposed to believe of God and His brand of justice alongside His mercy and love? Because logically that is completely irrational, and it dang sure doesn't have enough Scriptural evidence, either. One would think that if eternal torment in hell were the truth, then Scripture would not hesitate to scream an unmistakable warning about it in completely unambiguous language every page, rather than tossing out a verse here and there that has language that merely accommodates the possibility of being interpreted as eternal torment ... amidst probably a hundred if not more verses and passages that use crystal clear language like destroy, kill, burn up, consume, and so forth in reference to the fate of those who refuse to believe.
 
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After lots of discussion on this topic my conclusion is that for many people the whole point of Christ is to save Christians from hell. Without hell, they don’t see any point to his death or for us following Christ.
 
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After lots of discussion on this topic my conclusion is that for many people the whole point of Christ is to save Christians from hell. Without hell, they don’t see any point to his death or for us following Christ.

That's a disheartening conclusion; although, I can see why you say that.

I'm sure you've answered this before, but what do you think? Do you find the scriptures are clear on the issue, or ambiguous, or?
 
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As human beings we are bounded in both time and place. That is to say, we are finite. On the other hand we think of God as completely unbounded. God exists outside of both time and space. God is present everywhere and at all times. That is to say, God is infinite. This is the orthodox theistic understanding of God. To compare the finite to the infinite is beyond our human comprehension. Even to compare a grain of sand to Mount Everest falls far, far, far short. All of this brings up a number of questions in my mind.


The first question being “How is it even possible for a finite creature to offend an infinite God?” Could a grain of sand offend Mount Everest?


The second question being “Even if it were possible for the finite to offend the infinite, would the infinite punishment of a finite creature be just?” I will attempt to craft an analogy. You are in a park enjoying a picnic lunch when you glance down and notice an ant crawling across your sandwich. You are offended. How do you react? You have a number of options. You could ignore the ant. You could brush the ant away. You could move to a different location. You could kill the ant. You could kill the entire ant colony. You could capture the ant and confine it and proceed to torture it for several weeks until it finally dies. That last option is quite inadequate as a comparison to hell because hell is infinite in duration whereas the ant can only be tortured for a finite length of time.


To me the concept of hell flies in the face of any concept of a just and compassionate God. Hell would seem to be an entirely human invention based on a vindictive concept of retributory justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of hell. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of God. I completely reject the concept of hell as it is traditionally understood in most Christian churches.


Sixty years ago during a spiritual retreat, the leader (a Jesuit priest) tried to envision eternity in this way: "Imagine the Himalayan mountain range, the most massive range in the world, standing in places almost six miles high. Once every 100 years a butterfly wafts over them and strikes a rock with its wing. When those butterflies have worn the Himalayas down till they are as flat as Saskatchewan, then the first fraction of a second of eternity will have passed." Eternity is totally beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend! Now imagine a condemned soul suffering the most agonizing possible pain continuously for all eternity. Got the image? I certainly have! And it is an image that I find totally incompatible with the notion of a loving and compassionate God. A God who could inflict such a punishment on even the most vile and evil human being would not really be worthy of our respect, our worship or our love. I do, however, believe very strongly in God's justice but even more strongly in God's love and compassion. I will leave it with confidence in God's care.
 
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After lots of discussion on this topic my conclusion is that for many people the whole point of Christ is to save Christians from hell. Without hell, they don’t see any point to his death or for us following Christ.
Or worse than that, that Jesus died to save us from God. (the wrath of God)
 
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