4 Reasons John was writing a gospel sermon about suffering under Rome

keras · Jul 25, 2020

The Sixth Seal: the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

This worldwide disaster will cause the nations to combine in a One World Government, but we Christians will be motivated to go to and settle in all of the holy Land. We are seen there by John in Revelation 7:9-14 and when the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls starts: in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and in Revelation 12:14-17. We see how some Christians are taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days, but the rest must remain in the holy Land while under the control of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-7. Daniel 11:32-35 tells how the Lord’s people are divided at this time. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes this conquest.

All this plainly written information is given to us before it happens so we are without excuse if we fail to take note of and understand God's Plans for the end times. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-3

eclipsenow · Jul 25, 2020

keras said:
The Sixth Seal: the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

This worldwide disaster will cause the nations to combine in a One World Government, but we Christians will be motivated to go to and settle in all of the holy Land. We are seen there by John in Revelation 7:9-14 and when the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls starts: in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and in Revelation 12:14-17. We see how some Christians are taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days, but the rest must remain in the holy Land while under the control of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-7. Daniel 11:32-35 tells how the Lord’s people are divided at this time. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes this conquest.

All this plainly written information is given to us before it happens so we are without excuse if we fail to take note of and understand God's Plans for the end times. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-3

So you're just not going to answer any questions about your theological presuppositions on why you even approach the book with futurist glasses on in the first place - and are just going to start running your own interpretations by us without justifying why you use futurist glasses in the first place?

Seriously, I've looked up the meaning of "soon" for you, of "near", and unpacked why I approach with an Amil perspective. There's a lot more to unpack I know, but I've actually bothered to answer many of your questions.

You haven't answered mine and just reply with...

AGAIN:

What does any of this have to do with John's generation?
John wants them to hear and obey - so much so that he keeps repeating that the time is soon, the time is near, hear and obey, etc etc etc!

But how do they obey a message about something called 'Iran' and something called reformed 'Israel' when they're probably already a diaspora - or about to become one - as the book is written? Indeed, the fall of Rome is part of the whole judgement of God against Israel. It's part of the type of persecution John was writing about.

How were they to keep John's commandments to them if a majority of the book is about geopolitics now? EG: Imagine I told you that in 2000 years there was going to be a territorial war between the Reds and the Greens on Mars. The Reds were going to use old fashioned nuclear bombs, but the Greens were going to use new multigenetic bioweapons. Now obey this message!

You can avoid this all you want - but it's not adding to your credibility - nor that of any futurist when futurists cannot answer this most fundamental question from the first chapter of the book!

shilohsfoal · Jul 25, 2020

eclipsenow said:
So you're just not going to answer any questions about your theological presuppositions on why you even approach the book with futurist glasses on in the first place - and are just going to start running your own interpretations by us without justifying why you use futurist glasses in the first place?

Seriously, I've looked up the meaning of "soon" for you, of "near", and unpacked why I approach with an Amil perspective. There's a lot more to unpack I know, but I've actually bothered to answer many of your questions.

You haven't answered mine and just reply with...
View attachment 281611

AGAIN:

What does any of this have to do with John's generation?
John wants them to hear and obey - so much so that he keeps repeating that the time is soon, the time is near, hear and obey, etc etc etc!

But how do they obey a message about something called 'Iran' and something called reformed 'Israel' when they're probably already a diaspora - or about to become one - as the book is written? Indeed, the fall of Rome is part of the whole judgement of God against Israel. It's part of the type of persecution John was writing about.

How were they to keep John's commandments to them if a majority of the book is about geopolitics now? EG: Imagine I told you that in 2000 years there was going to be a territorial war between the Reds and the Greens on Mars. The Reds were going to use old fashioned nuclear bombs, but the Greens were going to use new multigenetic bioweapons. Now obey this message!

You can avoid this all you want - but it's not adding to your credibility - nor that of any futurist when futurists cannot answer this most fundamental question from the first chapter of the book!

Well, one thing for sure.
Your focus is only on the first part of the book and you base the rest of the book on the first part.

You don't seen to understand the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Not only his testimony found in Revelation but also the gospel.

Jesus said in his messages to the churches to let those who have an ear let them hear. Even though you may not understand what or who revelation is for or the meanings in the book, this group got the message loud and clear.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

eclipsenow · Jul 25, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
Well, one thing for sure.
Your focus is only on the first part of the book and you base the rest of the book on the first part.

It's almost exactly like how the first verses of any piece of literature tell you about how to read the literature.
EG: The first chapter of Genesis is heavily encoded with the number 7, and a lot more than just the 7 days.
The first sentence in the Hebrew has 7 words.
The next sentence has a multiple of 7 - 14 words. Ancient readers would have been clued in immediately to the poetic structure of this narrative.
The word ‘earth’—one half of the created sphere—appears in the chapter 21 times;again multiples of 7.
The word ‘heaven’—the other half of the created sphere—also appears 21 times.
‘God’, the lead actor, is mentioned exactly 35 times. 5 times 7.
The refrain ‘and it was so,’ which concludes each creative act, occurs exactly seven times;
The summary statement ‘God saw that it was good’ also occurs seven times;
It hardly needs to be pointed out that the whole account is structured around seven scenes or seven days of the week. As Dr John Dickson says:-
"The artistry of the chapter is stunning and, to ancient readers, unmistakable. It casts the creation as a work of art, sharing in the perfection of God and deriving from him. My point is obvious: short of including a prescript for the benefit of modern readers the original author could hardly have made it clearer that his message is being conveyed through literary rather than prosaic means. What we find in Genesis 1 is not exactly poetry of the type we find in the biblical book of Psalms but nor is it recognizable as simple prose. It is a rhythmic, symbolically-charged inventory of divine commands." The genre of Genesis 1: an historical approach - Centre for Public Christianity

So this is what we do. We study the introductory remarks and try and interpret what kind of literature this is in the first place. And what do we find throughout Revelation? The whole narrative is structured around 7 churches, 7 seals, etc.

You don't seen to understand the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Where does it say that? It doesn't. You're just making that up. It's not in the passage.
It's more like the 'gift' of prophecy where John is declaring the gospel to his generation in a special way.
It's prophetic gospel - warning God's people back then - and through them ALL Christians in all times.

"who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
They're not two distinct things - the testimony of Jesus Christ is the prophecy to that generation about what was about to happen to them - and yet they were to remain true to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He did NOT say "blessed are those who keep this end-times table for 2000 years to tell their 30 generations removed great-grandchildren about what's going to happen to them!"

He did NOT say to his generation "You're about to get sawn in half and fed to wild animals in the Roman circus - but don't worry. Just you wait till you see what happens to people in 2000 years - they're going to get it so much worse than you so nyaaa nyaaa!"

He said it TO his generation because it was ABOUT his generation - that they were about to start living through the heavier stuff that history sometimes dishes out to God's people.

Jesus said in his messages to the churches to let those who have an ear let them hear. Even though you may not understand what or who revelation is for or the meanings in the book, this group got the message loud and clear.

Yeah funny that - given John said it was written TO them and ABOUT them because the TIME WAS NEAR and HE SHARED IN THEIR TRIBULATION!

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Click to expand...

Really? How does this relate to defending how you read the book? It's not my fault you can't defend your position - but please don't go into uncle-fluffy mode and quote verses out of context at me as if that's supposed to impress me.

Remember - the Reds and Greens are going to fight it out on Mars in 2000 years - now obey this message! :doh:

John to his generation: "What's that? The Romans are coming for you? Pffft - wait till you see what happens in 2020!"

I mean, as IF he would write like that! That would effectively render the majority of the book absolutely meaningless and incomprehensible to the church for the last 2000 years! It's not to us or about us until finally we somehow decode it for our times - and it's always about our times - not our great grandchildren or anything! :doh:

It's always about me and my special ideas - I mean - how will I feel important if I don't have a secret inside track on the future?

Timtofly · Jul 25, 2020

timothyu said:
As I said in #25, that may be so but the harlot was the focus of the scripture.

If that is the case would not the church play the harlot after Jerusalem is once again a major city for the Jews? How deep into apostasy with Rome was the church in 70AD? or even in Jerusalem?

shilohsfoal · Jul 25, 2020

eclipsenow said:
It's almost exactly like how the first verses of any piece of literature tell you about how to read the literature.
EG: The first chapter of Genesis is heavily encoded with the number 7, and a lot more than just the 7 days.
The first sentence in the Hebrew has 7 words.
The next sentence has a multiple of 7 - 14 words. Ancient readers would have been clued in immediately to the poetic structure of this narrative.
The word ‘earth’—one half of the created sphere—appears in the chapter 21 times;again multiples of 7.
The word ‘heaven’—the other half of the created sphere—also appears 21 times.
‘God’, the lead actor, is mentioned exactly 35 times. 5 times 7.
The refrain ‘and it was so,’ which concludes each creative act, occurs exactly seven times;
The summary statement ‘God saw that it was good’ also occurs seven times;
It hardly needs to be pointed out that the whole account is structured around seven scenes or seven days of the week. As Dr John Dickson says:-
"The artistry of the chapter is stunning and, to ancient readers, unmistakable. It casts the creation as a work of art, sharing in the perfection of God and deriving from him. My point is obvious: short of including a prescript for the benefit of modern readers the original author could hardly have made it clearer that his message is being conveyed through literary rather than prosaic means. What we find in Genesis 1 is not exactly poetry of the type we find in the biblical book of Psalms but nor is it recognizable as simple prose. It is a rhythmic, symbolically-charged inventory of divine commands." The genre of Genesis 1: an historical approach - Centre for Public Christianity

So this is what we do. We study the introductory remarks and try and interpret what kind of literature this is in the first place. And what do we find throughout Revelation? The whole narrative is structured around 7 churches, 7 seals, etc.

Where does it say that? It doesn't. You're just making that up. It's not in the passage.
It's more like the 'gift' of prophecy where John is declaring the gospel to his generation in a special way.
It's prophetic gospel - warning God's people back then - and through them ALL Christians in all times.

"who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
They're not two distinct things - the testimony of Jesus Christ is the prophecy to that generation about what was about to happen to them - and yet they were to remain true to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He did NOT say "blessed are those who keep this end-times table for 2000 years to tell their 30 generations removed great-grandchildren about what's going to happen to them!"

He did NOT say to his generation "You're about to get sawn in half and fed to wild animals in the Roman circus - but don't worry. Just you wait till you see what happens to people in 2000 years - they're going to get it so much worse than you so nyaaa nyaaa!"

He said it TO his generation because it was ABOUT his generation - that they were about to start living through the heavier stuff that history sometimes dishes out to God's people.

Yeah funny that - given John said it was written TO them and ABOUT them because the TIME WAS NEAR and HE SHARED IN THEIR TRIBULATION!

Really? How does this relate to defending how you read the book? It's not my fault you can't defend your position - but please don't go into uncle-fluffy mode and quote verses out of context at me as if that's supposed to impress me.

Remember - the Reds and Greens are going to fight it out on Mars in 2000 years - now obey this message!

John to his generation: "What's that? The Romans are coming for you? Pffft - wait till you see what happens in 2020!"

I mean, as IF he would write like that! That would effectively render the majority of the book absolutely meaningless and incomprehensible to the church for the last 2000 years! It's not to us or about us until finally we somehow decode it for our times - and it's always about our times - not our great grandchildren or anything! It's always about me and my special ideas - I mean - how will I feel important if I don't have a secret inside track on the future?

Do you understand why there were no preterist in the early church?
Or have you ever read any if the early church writings concerning John or the book of Revelation?

shilohsfoal · Jul 25, 2020

eclipsenow said:
It's almost exactly like how the first verses of any piece of literature tell you about how to read the literature.
EG: The first chapter of Genesis is heavily encoded with the number 7, and a lot more than just the 7 days.
The first sentence in the Hebrew has 7 words.
The next sentence has a multiple of 7 - 14 words. Ancient readers would have been clued in immediately to the poetic structure of this narrative.
The word ‘earth’—one half of the created sphere—appears in the chapter 21 times;again multiples of 7.
The word ‘heaven’—the other half of the created sphere—also appears 21 times.
‘God’, the lead actor, is mentioned exactly 35 times. 5 times 7.
The refrain ‘and it was so,’ which concludes each creative act, occurs exactly seven times;
The summary statement ‘God saw that it was good’ also occurs seven times;
It hardly needs to be pointed out that the whole account is structured around seven scenes or seven days of the week. As Dr John Dickson says:-
"The artistry of the chapter is stunning and, to ancient readers, unmistakable. It casts the creation as a work of art, sharing in the perfection of God and deriving from him. My point is obvious: short of including a prescript for the benefit of modern readers the original author could hardly have made it clearer that his message is being conveyed through literary rather than prosaic means. What we find in Genesis 1 is not exactly poetry of the type we find in the biblical book of Psalms but nor is it recognizable as simple prose. It is a rhythmic, symbolically-charged inventory of divine commands." The genre of Genesis 1: an historical approach - Centre for Public Christianity

So this is what we do. We study the introductory remarks and try and interpret what kind of literature this is in the first place. And what do we find throughout Revelation? The whole narrative is structured around 7 churches, 7 seals, etc.

Where does it say that? It doesn't. You're just making that up. It's not in the passage.
It's more like the 'gift' of prophecy where John is declaring the gospel to his generation in a special way.
It's prophetic gospel - warning God's people back then - and through them ALL Christians in all times.

"who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
They're not two distinct things - the testimony of Jesus Christ is the prophecy to that generation about what was about to happen to them - and yet they were to remain true to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He did NOT say "blessed are those who keep this end-times table for 2000 years to tell their 30 generations removed great-grandchildren about what's going to happen to them!"

He did NOT say to his generation "You're about to get sawn in half and fed to wild animals in the Roman circus - but don't worry. Just you wait till you see what happens to people in 2000 years - they're going to get it so much worse than you so nyaaa nyaaa!"

He said it TO his generation because it was ABOUT his generation - that they were about to start living through the heavier stuff that history sometimes dishes out to God's people.

Yeah funny that - given John said it was written TO them and ABOUT them because the TIME WAS NEAR and HE SHARED IN THEIR TRIBULATION!

Really? How does this relate to defending how you read the book? It's not my fault you can't defend your position - but please don't go into uncle-fluffy mode and quote verses out of context at me as if that's supposed to impress me.

Remember - the Reds and Greens are going to fight it out on Mars in 2000 years - now obey this message!

John to his generation: "What's that? The Romans are coming for you? Pffft - wait till you see what happens in 2020!"

I mean, as IF he would write like that! That would effectively render the majority of the book absolutely meaningless and incomprehensible to the church for the last 2000 years! It's not to us or about us until finally we somehow decode it for our times - and it's always about our times - not our great grandchildren or anything! It's always about me and my special ideas - I mean - how will I feel important if I don't have a secret inside track on the future?

As for the 144,000 Israelis.If you can't understand what they have to do with the book of revelation then you don't understand much in it at all.

nolidad · Jul 25, 2020

parousia70 said:
The book of Revelation was written by St. John between AD 66-68, in the final years of the Neronic persecution. The internal evidence of the book concretely supports the early date, and the external evidence for this date is firmly attested to by the vast majority of well-known scholars and early Church writings.

The ONLY evidence for the 90AD Date is one single, solitary, ambiguous Statement by Irenaeus. All other Sources for the Late Date Rest Solely on his one statement.. Irenaeus also believed Jesus lived to Be 50 years old...

The Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170)
"the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name."

"John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. "

The Muratorian Canon is the oldest Latin church document of Rome, and of very great importance for the history of the canon. The witness of this manuscript, which is from the very era of Irenaeus and just prior to Clement of Alexandria, virtually demands the early date for Revelation. The relevant portion of the document states that "the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name" and "John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all." The writer of the Canon clearly teaches that John preceded Paul in writing letters to seven churches. And, church historians are agreed that Paul died before A.D. 70, either in A.D. 67 or 68. Therefore, the book of Revelation with its letters to seven churches was known by Paul before Paul's death, according to the Muratorian Canon.

Robert Young (1885)
"[Revelation] was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitious Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the book...The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date."

(Commentary on Revelation - Young's Analytical Concordance)

Like the vast majority of Biblical scholars, Robert Young believes Revelation was written during Nero's reign and he claims that the internal testimony of the book is wholly in favor of this early date. Here is a mere snippet of the overwhelming INTERNAL evidence:

* The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 90-96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here, and there is no historic support for a persecution of the Church under Domitian in the 90s.

* According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD

* The temple and the city were still standing in Revelation 11, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD. And if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 90-96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple and city in 70 AD is deafening.

* There were "other apostles" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the apostles were dead before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time.

* Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.

* Nearly all scholars believe Revelation is inextricably linked to the Olivet Discourse. Since the best commentaries on the Olivet show it is speaking of the events leading up to AD 70, so must Revelation be speaking of the same events.

* The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. The Roman emperors as listed by Josephus and Tacitus are (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero.Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only a little while.. . Galba, for 6 months. If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy.

The internal evidence of the book of Revelation demands the Neronic date. Robert Young was right: "The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." As also do the majority of Published Scholars affirm.

The internal evidence is only there from an allegorical reinterpretive perspective.

The external evidence is attested as c. 95 AD by a super majority of scholars! A 66-68 AD writing would have put John in his early 40's and thus not John the elder!

Also JOhn did not have easy access to news from Israel or Rome as he was a prisoner on an island that was a mining prison! He didn't just flip open his laptop! Anyone who came to John risked their lives to get to him!

I agree nearly all scholars agree that most of Revelation is tied to the Olivet discourse. One needs to remember that the Luke passage of Jerusalem being surrounded by Armies is speaking of the 66-70 AD siege by Titus and the Matthew portion is speaking of a future date that has yet to happen!

As for Nero being the sixth you say if and that is a big IF!

The Muratorian Canon was wriotten in Latin! That alone should tell you much! You seem to forget that in the 2nd century the church suffered wave after wave of intense persecution!

If Nero was the sixth and Galba the seventh, who is the eighth?

The only way one can ascribe th ebulk of Revelation as being written about Nero and His persecution, is if they take the symbols, then symbolize them and twist them to be close but not exact. John would not have known the extent of the persecutions! And allegorists hinge much on the word "soon" which is "en" and is a preposition which means by and by more correctly!

Well he may have heard of the destruction of the temple, but the time of the gentiles is still not fulfilled so the destruction of the temple by Titus does not fulfill all bible prophecy.

also we have no messenger flying throughout the globe warning of the mark, we have no mark, no image coming alive etc.etc.etc.etc. One has to play twister with scripture to get it to conform to an allegorical retranslation!

Another serious problem with allegorical reinterpretation of Revelation is this:

It is a historical fact that Titus broke the siege of Jerusalem to go back to Rome to see his father vespasian crowned as cesar in 69 AD This matches the Luke account and the internal evidence of Hebrews and Josephus.

Then in order to make the antichrist fit the allegorical opinion, you are forced to make him of the Julian line when that line ended!

Also the seven heads are seven mountains (kingdoms) that the false religious systems sits on and rules over many nations (kings and kingdoms) not just Rome!

There is much unsureness as to the identity of the seven kings who precedes the eighth. But The Julian line is a far less certainty than many others.

There is one definition, though which not popular has a much more solid basis in history and stays faithful to the WHOLE counsel fo Scripture concerning the end times1

The seven kings (kingdoms or rule as defined) are the seven iterations of government of Rome. The one current was Imperial Rome which is still in existence thorugh England, the US and Russia. The eighth will be the rule of the antichrist when he rules the entire world after his resurrection.

nolidad · Jul 25, 2020

timothyu said:
How does Peter calling Rome 'Babylon' fit in with the harlot in Rev. 17 who sits on seven hills and Babylon (Rome)? The church that less than two hundred and fifty years after the writing of Rev. whored itself back to the Roman Empire to work in tandem with the world of man and become a worldly power itself having rejected the Kingdom? Was that a past or future event?

Fear not, Rome is not the Babylon Peter spoke of! Babylon was the Babylon Peter spoke of. Though the city was mostly in ruins, the area still had a huge population of Jews and Pewter went to Babylpon to minister to those Jews! It was not a code word for Rome or as others would try to have us believe Jerusalem.

Timtofly · Jul 25, 2020

nolidad said:
Fear not, Rome is not the Babylon Peter spoke of! Babylon was the Babylon Peter spoke of. Though the city was mostly in ruins, the area still had a huge population of Jews and Pewter went to Babylpon to minister to those Jews! It was not a code word for Rome or as others would try to have us believe Jerusalem.

I think they are saying Jerusalem was the babylon, of Peter. Not stuck on Rome, now stuck on Jerusalem. I know neither can be the place of symbolism before the 4th century. The church was hardly a child before 350AD, much less, an adolescent.

timothyu · Jul 25, 2020

keras said:
triggered by an attack upon Israel.

Define Israel. The northern kingdom or the Davidic dynasty to the south?

nolidad · Jul 25, 2020

eclipsenow said:
Well he obviously had people visiting to and fro, to deliver news and take his letter, or how do we have Revelation?

Well I will not speculate on Johns social calendar. I do know that Patmos was a prison mining island guarded by Roman legionnaires. They allowed no visitors if they followed the normal practices (unless of course you paid a nice tidy sum).

Spo people would have had to sneak on the island under pain of death or imprisonment to see JOhn!

Also as JOhn did not venture too much into gentile territory, the bulk of those who would have dared to visit him would have been Jewish exiles (probably though I cannot be sure) mostly from the large Jewish contingent in Babylon. The very nature of the visitors would preclude them from having a trove of knowledge about what was going on in Rome, just what Rome was doing in Israel.

Also JOhn was writing under the Holy Spirit abpout things that were to come (soon is a bad translation) Why would God have him write about contemporary issues knowing that it would be very very difficult to
1. Get them off the island
2. Get them to the mainland of Turkey
3. Copy the Revelation and get them to the churches in time to make some kind of difference? This alone would take many years- they had no onternet and walked unless they were rich.

Allegorical interpretations can appeal to our itchy ears, but when we look at them in light of the life of the day- they really fall apart.

timothyu · Jul 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
If that is the case would not the church play the harlot after Jerusalem is once again a major city for the Jews? How deep into apostasy with Rome was the church in 70AD? or even in Jerusalem?

Has it ever stopped since rejoining the world of man rather than remaining loyal to the Kingdom?

nolidad · Jul 25, 2020

timothyu said:
Has it ever stopped since rejoining the world of man rather than remaining loyal to the Kingdom?

Well there are many parts of the mystery form of the church that is whorish, but the invisible church (believers in all sects and denominations) though we are frail, weak sinners saved by grace, have kept faith with Christ throughout the ages. Jesus said the church visible would go apostate.

timothyu · Jul 25, 2020

nolidad said:
Fear not, Rome is not the Babylon Peter spoke of!

Timtofly said:
I think they are saying Jerusalem was the babylon, of Peter.

Again, the focus was on the harlot, not Babylon. Who whored itself back to the world of man?

timothyu · Jul 25, 2020

nolidad said:
Well there are many parts of the mystery form of the church that is whorish, but the invisible church (believers in all sects and denominations) though we are frail, weak sinners saved by grace, have kept faith with Christ throughout the ages. Jesus said the church visible would go apostate.

Yes, there are still those loyal to the Kingdom and governance of God rather than to the world and the governance of the church.

nolidad · Jul 25, 2020

timothyu said:
Again, the focus was on the harlot, not Babylon. Who whored itself back to the world of man?

timothyu said:
Yes, there are still those loyal to the Kingdom and governance of God rather than to the world and the governance of the church.

Well there has been a mystery Babylon, the mother of ALL harlots and abominations on teh earth! That was the mystery religion founded by Nimrod at Babel!!!

Harlot when used as a symbol always means a false religious system.

The apostate church is not the mother of all harlots.

The mustard tree church (growing ot huge proportions) with teh birds nesting in its branches (demons) has spun many false doctrine and abominations, but those things go back all the way to Babel. Even some sects of Christendom adopted these ancient mysteries.

The outward form of teh church will continue to get more and more apostate in this age of Laodecia but the true church always continues and moves forward in His Grace!

timothyu · Jul 25, 2020

nolidad said:
Even some sects of Christendom adopted these ancient mysteries.

The church sold out the Kingdom, broadsided the teachings of Jesus and amalgamated itself with the institutions and governments of man which ran contrary to the Kingdom. The only reason I can see it surviving was that God needed it as way to ensure scriptures would be carried ahead through time, and what better way than in the hands of the enemy.

keras · Jul 25, 2020

timothyu said:
Define Israel. The northern kingdom or the Davidic dynasty to the south?

At present the world knows Israel as the Jewish State in the Middle East. It is that which Iran and their proxies will attack, as Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12 tell us.
The Lord will intervene and stop any nukes striking the holy Land.

We Christians; from every race, nation and language, are the true Israel of God.

Timtofly · Jul 25, 2020

timothyu said:
Again, the focus was on the harlot, not Babylon. Who whored itself back to the world of man?

Peter was in modern day Iraq. Nothing Peter wrote was about a harlot nor symbolism in the book of Revelation.

Your point is all the apostles were speaking about a church barely 20 to 30 years old. That is a fairly fast tract to whoredom? If it happened in the lifetime of the Apostles, then neither the Roman Church, nor a Jerusalem church can be trusted after 60AD. They were already apostate and have remained apostate since 70AD.

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