Covenant and New Covenant theology

Guojing said:

So if you don't believe there will be a Tribulation period where God will deal specifically with the nation Israel, then naturally you will not believe what I am saying about Romans 11:25-26.

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Yes.

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Guojing said:

You also don't believe in the tribulation and the 1000 year millenial reign right?

If that is the case, you will naturally not accept this

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This addresses nothing in my post. Is there a reason you are not addressing anything I posted? ( and yes I believe in the great tribulation and millennium).

claninja said:

This addresses nothing in my post. Is there a reason you are not addressing anything I posted? ( and yes I believe in the great tribulation and millennium).

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If you do, then you will accept that the Tribulation period is known as Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)

Then you will understand why, now, there is a remenant of Israel that is saved because they believed in Jesus.

But during the time of Jacob's trouble, that is when God will return to deal with the nation Israel, those that are blinded. And at the end of the Tribulation, that is when the entire nation would believe Jesus is their Messiah.

So that is my answer to your question how can all of Israel be saved, and yet only a remnant be saved?

Guojing said:

So if you don't believe there will be a Tribulation period where God will deal specifically with the nation Israel

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Most do believe in the Great Tribulation period of 3 1/2 years. Jesus will Return after it, the 7th Bowl is Armageddon. Rev 16:16-18

Where you go wrong is in thinking the Jews; the House of Judah will still be more or less as they are now.
Many prophesies tell us of their virtual demise on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal disaster. Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +

keras said:

Most do believe in the Great Tribulation period of 3 1/2 years. Jesus will Return after it, the 7th Bowl is Armageddon. Rev 16:16-18

Where you go wrong is in thinking the Jews; the House of Judah will still be more or less as they are now.
Many prophesies tell us of their virtual demise on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal disaster. Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +

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So what is the reason for Jacob's trouble, in your view? What is God planning to do during those years?

Guojing said:

If you do, then you will accept that the Tribulation period is known as Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)

Then you will understand why, now, there is a remenant of Israel that is saved because they believed in Jesus.

But during the time of Jacob's trouble, that is when God will return to deal with the nation Israel, those that are blinded. And at the end of the Tribulation, that is when the entire nation would believe Jesus is their Messiah.

So that is my answer to your question how can all of Israel be saved, and yet only a remnant be saved?

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You haven't answered this question about nation Israel yet.

It is the entire human race.

That reality is acknowledged and applauded by the Jewish community itself.

Why don't you believe them?

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

jgr said:

You haven't answered this question about nation Israel yet.

It is the entire human race.

That reality is acknowledged and applauded by the Jewish community itself.

Why don't you believe them?

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

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I would follow Scripture first, you are free to believe in other sources.

Guojing said:

I would follow Scripture first, you are free to believe in other sources.

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To the genuine dispensationalist, they follow Scripture, because they affirm the literal fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham through the literal nation of Israel:

Genesis 22
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Guojing said:

So if you don't believe there will be a Tribulation period where God will deal specifically with the nation Israel, then naturally you will not believe what I am saying about Romans 11:25-26.

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I do not believe what you say about Romans 11:25-26, because you are ripping a few verses out of their context in an attempt to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
You have claimed Israel is now blinded, when the text of Romans 11:1-5 makes it clear that part of Israel is blinded, and part is not blinded. See the word "remnant" in Romans 11:5.

Dispensationalists often change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26. This is a corruption of God's Word.

You are also ignoring what Jesus said about the times of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24-28.

Paul uses the Olive Tree of Romans 11 to describe the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles grafted together into the same tree. There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church found in the passage.

Your doctrine is a form of Dual-Covenant Theology, based on race.
It is not found in the New Testament.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

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Guojing said:

So what is the reason for Jacob's trouble, in your view? What is God planning to do during those years?

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I agree with jgr, in that every person alive today has at least a smidgen of Abrahams genes.
But I also believe that there is a special people who God knows and keeps watch over. Amos 9:8-9 The Jewish people were part of that group, but lost their status in the first Century. Matthew 21:43
The current Jewish State of Israel is a Satanic construct; the fake Israel, that many prophesies tell us; will be destroyed on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:25 He was successful. It follows that Christians ARE Israelites; the Israel of God, the Overcomers for Him. Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16

Guojing said:

You also don't believe in the tribulation and the 1000 year millenial reign right?

If that is the case, you will naturally not accept this

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Doesn't it matter what's true and not how beliefs fit into certain frameworks?

These quotes below, IMO, make an insightful point regarding the dispensational view that there will be a future covenant to fulfill much of the Old Testament promises to Israel.

That view neglects to recognize that Christ fulfilled prophecy through the New Covenant that He inaugurated at His first advent. Holding onto the belief that there's still a clear line of division between biblical Israel and the church disallows the acceptance that Christ fulfilled the promises made to the Jewish forefathers:

by Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost:

mkgal1 said:

Doesn't it matter what's true and not how beiefs fit into certain frameworks?

These quotes below, IMO, make an insightful point regarding the dispensational view that there will be a future covenant to fulfill much of the Old Testament promises to Israel. That view neglects to recognize that Christ fulfilled prophecy through the New Covenant that He inaugurated at His first advent. Holding onto the belief that there's still a clear line of division between biblical Israel and the church disallows the acceptance that Christ fulfilled the promises made to the Jewish forefathers:

by Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost:

“If the church fulfills this covenant, she may also fulfill the other covenants made with Israel and there is no need for an earthly millennium.”11

According to Dr. Ryrie:

“If the church is fulfilling Israel’s promises as contained in the new covenant or anywhere in the Scriptures, then [dispensational] premillennialism is condemned.”12​

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Most of us tend to understand the things we read, based on a certain schematic framework in our minds.

That is called the schema theory of understanding.

keras said:

I agree with jgr, in that every person alive today has at least a smidgen of Abrahams genes.
But I also believe that there is a special people who God knows and keeps watch over. Amos 9:8-9 The Jewish people were part of that group, but lost their status in the first Century. Matthew 21:43
The current Jewish State of Israel is a Satanic construct; the fake Israel, that many prophesies tell us; will be destroyed on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:25 He was successful. It follows that Christians ARE Israelites; the Israel of God, the Overcomers for Him. Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16

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So you believe that, during the Tribulation, Jesus will come back to destory the current nation we know of as "Israel"?

Guojing said:

So you believe that, during the Tribulation, Jesus will come back to destory the current nation we know of as "Israel"?

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The Lord will devastate and depopulate the entire Middle East on His terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal. Zephaniah 1:2-18, Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 21:1-17, +

It will be the Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12 event, triggered by an attack by the Islamic peoples.
We Bible believers and studiers should know all about it and be prepared to do as the Lord instructs us after it.

keras said:

The Lord will devastate and depopulate the entire Middle East on His terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal. Zephaniah 1:2-18, Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 21:1-17, +

It will be the Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12 event, triggered by an attack by the Islamic peoples.
We Bible believers and studiers should know all about it and be prepared to do as the Lord instructs us after it.

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I suppose that is a yes?

So you also believe that the Body of Christ right now is the Israel that the blessings of God will go to?

Guojing said:

I suppose that is a yes?

So you also believe that the Body of Christ right now is the Israel that the blessings of God will go to?

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Yes.
There is only ONE people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6
God does not Bless those who hate His Son. Romans 2:29
Look carefully at Jeremiah 12:14, check the context, esp Jeremiah 13

keras said:

Yes.
There is only ONE people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6
God does not Bless those who hate His Son. Romans 2:29
Look carefully at Jeremiah 12:14, check the context, esp Jeremiah 13

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Okay, I can see you have a different understanding of Romans 11:25-26.

If that is the case, then why does vs 25 says Israel now is currently blinded? Are we in the Body of Christ blinded in any way?

How do you understand vs 25 and 26 as Paul stated?

Guojing said:

If that is the case, then why does vs 25 says Israel now is currently blinded? Are we in the Body of Christ blinded in any way?

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Yes, Isaiah 42:18-20 Who is so blind as My servants......
We are told that those who choose falsehood, non Biblical theories and wild fables, [like the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church] will be unable to comprehend the truth of the Prophetic Word. Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 8:16, 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, +

Guojing said:

How do you understand vs 25 and 26 as Paul stated?

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I see that as applying to the whole of the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16
Remember; all of Israel was never truly God's people, many apostatized in ancient times and many reject God and esp, His Son today. The Bible does not say the ungodly will be saved and many prophesies tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel.

The reason that the redemption of Jewish Israel is taught, is because they must remain on earth, so as the Church can go to live in heaven. This totally unscriptural theory will never happen and is simply a deception of the devil.

keras said:

Yes, Isaiah 42:18-20 Who is so blind as My servants......
We are told that those who choose falsehood, non Biblical theories and wild fables, [like the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church] will be unable to comprehend the truth of the Prophetic Word. Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 8:16, 1 Corinthians 3:18-20, +

I see that as applying to the whole of the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16
Remember; all of Israel was never truly God's people, many apostatized in ancient times and many reject God and esp, His Son today. The Bible does not say the ungodly will be saved and many prophesies tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel.

The reason that the redemption of Jewish Israel is taught, is because they must remain on earth, so as the Church can go to live in heaven. This totally unscriptural theory will never happen and is simply a deception of the devil.

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So if you regard the Body of Christ as Israel now, you think we are also blinded, as stated in vs 25?

Guojing said:

So if you regard the Body of Christ as Israel now, you think we are also blinded, as stated in vs 25?

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To a varying degree, we are all blinded.
I do not claim to know it all and by the proliferation of theories and beliefs out there, no one else does either.

Regarding who is the true Israel of God, they can only be those people who love the Lord and keep His Commandments.