Slavery, a Guide

Tom 1

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There are different rules of slavery in the OT for different people, this is a reference for people when talking about this practice. Nowhere in the bible does God say that slavery is wrong. These verses are not the totality of the bible describing slavery and Gods attitude toward the practice but they are the major ones. How can these verse be reconciled with a good and moral god? In summary of the verses below:

1. Hebrew slaves with Hebrew masters can be released after 6 years unless the master "trick" them into staying by supplying them with a wife.

2. All slaves are property and considered money just like an ox.

3. Only Hebrew slaves are to be released on the year of Jubilee, not all slaves.

4. All slaves can be beaten but Hebrew slaves cannot be beaten to death.

5. If a male Hebrew rapes a slave he will not be put to death if he gives restitution to God, if he rapes a non-slave he shall be put to death.

6. God says that the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations around them, give them to their descendants and beat them without penalty. Sounds like American slavery in the 17th and 18th centuries.

1. Male (some female rules mixed in) Hebrew Slaves.

Exodus 21:1-6 ESV

Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave,a]"> he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. Ex 21:1-3.

This is specifically for male Hebrew slaves. It says that male Hebrew slaves can be purchased to serve for six years, then released without any compensation. This mentions purchasing as property and that they are not free to leave since after 6 years they go free. It also sets rules for a wife of the male Hebrew slave. She will go free with him if he was married when he was purchased. It goes on to say:

If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever. Ex 21:4-6.

If a purchased Hebrew slave is married after he is purchased the wife and the children are not his but his masters. If the slave wants to leave after six years he must go alone. If he loves his wife and children then he must submit to being a slave forever since his wife and kids are the masters forever. So if a master wants to keep his male Hebrew slave he can “trick” him by supplying him a wife and hoping he wants to stay with her. But notice if the master supplies his male Hebrew slave with a wife, the wife and children are his slaves forever, the master gets new slaves for free even if the male Hebrew slave leaves.

Exodus 21:16 ESV

Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

This says that if a Hebrew steals a Hebrew man (not a woman) and sells him, he shall be executed along with the purchaser. This section is still talking about Hebrew men since in Leviticus 25 God instructs them that they can steal men from surrounding nations. We will get to that later.

Exodus 21:20-21

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

The is still talking about Hebrew slaves since beating them is allowed in Leviticus 25 if they are not Hebrew. So a master can beat a slave pretty severely but just not to death. According to this a master can beat his slave pretty bad (not in the eye or tooth as we will see later) as long as the slaves does not die within two days. If the slave dies as a result after two days it seem that the master has no repercussions. It also explicitly states the slave (a real person) is the masters money or property, not a person, and that is the reason given why no punishment is required by God.

Exodus 21:26-27 ESV

When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

So no master can beat the eyes or teeth of male or female Hebrew slaves. The punishment is only that the slave has to go free. Notice the master can beat them other places such as the back of their heads, back, bottom of feet etc. with no penalty.

Exodus 21:28-32 ESV

When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. Ex 21:28-31

This seems reasonable, basically if you know your ox will kill people and you do nothing about it the owner and ox are executed. This is only talking about a Hebrew person. What if the person the ox kills is a slave?

If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekelse of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. Ex 21:32

Different rules. The ox owner does not die but has to pay the owner for the slave. This is because the slave is considered property as is said in Ex 21:21. Restitution is on order just as if he destroyed another person’s ox. The slave is not a person but property just like an ox as seen with the next verses:

Exodus 21:33-36 ESV

“When a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, the owner of the pit shall make restoration. He shall give money to its owner, and the dead beast shall be his.

“When one man's ox butts another's, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and share its price, and the dead beast also they shall share. Or if it is known that the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has not kept it in, he shall repay ox for ox, and the dead beast shall be his.

In these situations an ox is killed by someone that is not the owner. The owner is given money to satisfy the death of his ox as restitution. Just like when an ox kills a slave as shown above. There is no difference between an ox and a slave to God.


Lev 25:39-42 ESV

“If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. For they are my servants,e]">[e] whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. You shall not rule over him ruthlessly but shall fear your God. Lev 25:39-43

God is talking about Hebrew’s here. You shall not enslave your brother; however, in Exodus 21 God has rules for owning Hebrew male slaves. Maybe God is talking about an actual brother. Notice here that is only Hebrew male slaves that are released at the year of jubilee, not all slaves.

Lev 25:47-55 ESV

“If a stranger or sojourner with you becomes rich, and your brother beside him becomes poor and sells himself to the stranger or sojourner with you or to a member of the stranger's clan then after he is sold he may be redeemed. Lev 25:47-49

God makes provision for Hebrews enslaved to non-Hebrews to be set free. God is playing favorites.

One of his brothers may redeem him, or his uncle or his cousin may redeem him, or a close relative from his clan may redeem him. Or if he grows rich he may redeem himself. He shall calculate with his buyer from the year when he sold himself to him until the year of jubilee, and the price of his sale shall vary with the number of years. The time he was with his owner shall be rated as the time of a hired worker. If there are still many years left, he shall pay proportionately for his redemption some of his sale price. If there remain but a few years until the year of jubilee, he shall calculate and pay for his redemption in proportion to his years of service. He shall treat him as a worker hired year by year. He shall not rule ruthlessly over him in your sight. Lev 25:48-53

Here God is saying a Hebrew slave with a non-Hebrew master can be redeemed and sets rules for compensation.

And if he is not redeemed by these means, then he and his children with him shall be released in the year of jubilee. For it is to me that the people of Israel are servants. They are my servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Lev 25:54-55

Here it states that only Hebrew slaves with non-Hebrew masters can be released on the year of jubilee. Non Hebrew slaves apparently do not need to be released.

2. Female Hebrew Slaves.

Exodus 21:7-11 ESV

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. Ex 21:1

Here a Hebrew father can sell his Hebrew daughter to another as a wife. The woman has no say and does not have to agree or volunteer.

If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. Ex 21:8

If the master is not pleased with her as a wife, then the master must not sell her to foreigners and must redeem her. Notice she has no choice in the matter at all, she is a purchased slave to the master. The master has another option if he is not pleased with her as a wife:

If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. Ex 21:9

The Master does not have to set her free if he designates her for his son. Then he can treat her like a daughter, see Ex 21:1, he can then sell her to others and get compensation since she is to be treated like a daughter. This seems to be another loophole to setting a slave free. If the master also does not designate the female Hebrew slave to his son then:

If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money. Ex 21:10-11

So if the master wants a different wife and does not have a son then she must be treated as the new wife and set free with no compensation. But notice the woman is the master’s slave and property to do with as he wishes.

Lev 19:20-22 ESV

“If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. Lev 19:20

This is talking about Hebrew slaves because it says the woman is not yet set free. Only Hebrew women slaves can be set free by Gods rules.

They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;… Lev 19:20

The sin must be rape here, not consensual because the penalty is death. So if a Hebrew female slave is raped the rapist is not to be put to death. If a free Hebrew woman is raped the rapist will be put to death as stated in other laws.

but he shall bring his compensation to the Lord, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven for the sin that he has committed. Lev 19:21-22

If a man rapes a Hebrew female slave then the man can pay restitution to God and go on with his life. As long as a man has plenty of money he can rape as many Hebrew female slaves as he wants without further penalty.

3. All Slaves

Lev 22:10-11 ESV

A lay person shall not eat of a holy thing; no foreign guest of the priest or hired worker shall eat of a holy thing, but if a priest buys a slave as his property for money, the slave may eat of it, and anyone born in his house may eat of his food.

Here God points out again that slaves are the master’s property and money.

4. Non-Hebrew Slaves

Lev 25: 44-46 ESV

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Here the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations and clans around as well as strangers (non Hebrews) that were born in the land. God says here again the slaves are the master’s property. It also says that non Hebrew slaves can be inherited by descendants of the master, just like property or as God uses as possessions. So God thinks of non Hebrew slaves as possessions and to be treated by property.

Also notice that it says that Hebrew slaves are not to be treated ruthlessly. In Exodus it says that Hebrew slaves can be beaten as has already been discussed. So God must not think beating slaves severely as long as they don’t die within a couple days is not ruthless.

Slavery was a basic reality of life from the beginning of ordered civilisations, maybe even before. The first city states regularly fought each other and took slaves. For a community, whether as the inhabitants of a small city or as a tribe both the possibility of becoming enslaved or enslaving others was as real then as today the possibility of being involved in a motorway pile up or train wreck is. It was a feature of life. Within Hebrew society people who lost everything and had no other means to eat had the option to sell themselves into slavery for a limited period, if you look into it your post highlights all the things that makes your point but ignores the protections - from the earliest walled cities in Sumeria there were more protections for slaves in the ancient world than there were in the US, and slaves, possibly because any person could just as easily become a slave as a slave owner, were not viewed as sub-human. To understand slavery in the ancient world you need to reflect on just how different things were. Becoming destitute didn’t mean living in a trailer park or frequenting the soup kitchen, it meant having no protections whatsoever. Temporary slavery, like laws stipulating gleaning rights etc, was a solution for the times, the ancient world equivalent of a crappy minimum wage job, or of having to work for a welfare cheque rather than just take it as a handout. Life is grim, in many parts of the world today people live and work in conditions far worse that what was typical for a slave in somewhere like Ur or Jerusalem. The sort of slavery practised in the US reflects the kind of over the top brutality and de-humanisation the industrial revolution made commonplace, the norm rather than the exception.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I don't think they believed it was "good".
Maybe not but why would God make rules for it if He thought it was not good. He made rules against murder disrespecting your parents etc.

Do you think your morality is superior to that of countries that might believe in that?
I believe my morality is superior to people that think forced slavery is a good thing.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Slavery was a basic reality of life from the beginning of ordered civilisations, maybe even before. The first city states regularly fought each other and took slaves. For a community, whether as the inhabitants of a small city or as a tribe both the possibility of becoming enslaved or enslaving others was as real then as today the possibility of being involved in a motorway pile up or train wreck is. It was a feature of life.
So was murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, lying etc. and God specifically said to stop doing those things. Why not for slavery. It seems he could have replaced honor your father and mother with do not own people as property.

Within Hebrew society people who lost everything and had no other means to eat had the option to sell themselves into slavery for a limited period,
Yet not all slave rules were for voluntary slavery. Much of them are for forced slaves.

if you look into it your post highlights all the things that makes your point but ignores the protections - from the earliest walled cities in Sumeria there were more protections for slaves in the ancient world than there were in the US, and slaves, possibly because any person could just as easily become a slave as a slave owner, were not viewed as sub-human.
So what? God did not provide those "protections". God actually gave rules to beat them. I never said anything about them being viewed as subhuman. My objection is people being forced to be slaves and could be beaten and treated immorally. It does not matter what they thought of their slaves.

To understand slavery in the ancient world you need to reflect on just how different things were. Becoming destitute didn’t mean living in a trailer park or frequenting the soup kitchen, it meant having no protections whatsoever. Temporary slavery, like laws stipulating gleaning rights etc, was a solution for the times, the ancient world equivalent of a crappy minimum wage job, or of having to work for a welfare cheque rather than just take it as a handout. Life is grim, in many parts of the world today people live and work in conditions far worse that what was typical for a slave in somewhere like Ur or Jerusalem.
So why did god not just provide for them? If someone wants to voluntary be a slave, then fine, but you keep avoiding the practice on enslaving non-Hebrew slaves by force and treating them immorally.

The sort of slavery practised in the US reflects the kind of over the top brutality and de-humanisation the industrial revolution made commonplace, the norm rather than the exception.
Have you read the Bible or my post? Leviticus 25 describes a slavery given by God that closely resembles American slavery, purchasing slaves form the nations around them, owning them as property for life, handing them down to descendants, laws for beating them. Were these not attributes of American slavery?

Can you address the forced slavery of non-Hebrew people? My contention is that forcing another to be a slave against their will is immoral in any situation at any time, yet God told the Hebrews to do just that to others.
 
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Tom 1

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So was murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, lying etc. and God specifically said to stop doing those things. Why not for slavery. It seems he could have replaced honor your father and mother with do not own people as property.

Yet not all slave rules were for voluntary slavery. Much of them are for forced slaves.

So what? God did not provide those "protections". God actually gave rules to beat them. I never said anything about them being viewed as subhuman. My objection is people being forced to be slaves and could be beaten and treated immorally. It does not matter what they thought of their slaves.

So why did god not just provide for them? If someone wants to voluntary be a slave, then fine, but you keep avoiding the practice on enslaving non-Hebrew slaves by force and treating them immorally.

Have you read the Bible or my post? Leviticus 25 describes a slavery given by God that closely resembles American slavery, purchasing slaves form the nations around them, owning them as property for life, handing them down to descendants, laws for beating them. Were these not attributes of American slavery?

Can you address the forced slavery of non-Hebrew people? My contention is that forcing another to be a slave against their will is immoral in any situation at any time, yet God told the Hebrews to do just that to others.

You're mistaking 'reading some stuff' with understanding it. Some context, rather than a superficial skim, would help. Some basic points -

1) Slavery is not a moral teaching of the bible, it's a 'stuff that happens when people do whatever they want' teaching'. To rather state the obvious, the story of the bible goes like this - there existed some idyllic state, humans were vegetarian and in some sense attached no meaning to ideas of right and wrong. Humans made a decision that led them into disagreement with God. God said, out you go, life is going to change and things are going to be very hard for you. Time goes on, murder and mayhem follows, God starts again with Noah. He decides not to make another fresh start again and just let things play out as they will. We can look to history to see how the world developed. God has a long term plan, the lion will lay down with the lamb and so on, but long term in human terms means thousands of years (at least).

2) God didn't write the bible - however you want to interpret 'inspired' it quite clearly doesn't mean God just wrote it. Here it gets a bit more complicated - if you actually study the community guidelines, rules, the implicit spirit of the law in Deuteronomy (etc) and compare it with Assyria, Egypt and other contemporaneous societies it's actually pretty inspiring. You can look into it and make your own mind up - then you could have an opinion on it that relates to something other than whatever random notions happen to go through your head. Some periods of Sumerian civilisation seem to have been comparable to some degree (some periods decidedly weren't). No offence, but questions of the sort 'why wasn't there a 21st century society 2 millennia before Christ' are just plain stupid.

Finally, you can demonstrate that your question is in good faith, something more than a shrill and pointless rant, by showing how it could be/could have been done. We're at a point in Western civilisation, i.e. where we've killed enough people who wanted to do things differently that we can settle back and reflect on how nice we all are now we don't have to fight for our survival. That could all deteriorate pretty quickly following some major disaster, so your task is to show humanity how to do it - how do you take the whole of humanity, either 4,000 years ago or in some post-apocalyptic future, and ensure that from the whole mass you bring out some shining civilisation that can somehow navigate its way towards becoming a guiding light for the world (or at least a more or less democratic/civilised society) somehow bypassing along the way all of the steps it took to get to that point? You have said how wrong it all is, here's your opportunity to put God straight and show him how it all be done. For extra points you could demonstrate how you'd respond now to future complaints about how we run society now, and show how all the things we do badly now could all just be solved with a snap of your fingers.
 
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Tom 1

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So was murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, lying etc. and God specifically said to stop doing those things. Why not for slavery. It seems he could have replaced honor your father and mother with do not own people as property.

You're going to have to explain why you think this makes sense.
 
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Tom 1

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So why did god not just provide for them? If someone wants to voluntary be a slave, then fine, but you keep avoiding the practice on enslaving non-Hebrew slaves by force and treating them immorally.

Ok, what's your solution? How would you have run things in Mesopotamia or some other region of the world in the ancient world?

I don't think one post qualifies me to 'keep' doing anything. Slavery was an everyday part of life at that time. Using your extensive knowledge of the ancient world, please explain how it might have been otherwise.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You're mistaking 'reading some stuff' with understanding it. Some context, rather than a superficial skim, would help. Some basic points -
Why not just address my post instead of assuming I just skimmed it. I copied and pasted the text and commented on it.

1) Slavery is not a moral teaching of the bible, it's a 'stuff that happens when people do whatever they want' teaching'. To rather state the obvious, the story of the bible goes like this - there existed some idyllic state, humans were vegetarian and in some sense attached no meaning to ideas of right and wrong. Humans made a decision that led them into disagreement with God. God said, out you go, life is going to change and things are going to be very hard for you. Time goes on, murder and mayhem follows, God starts again with Noah. He decides not to make another fresh start again and just let things play out as they will. We can look to history to see how the world developed. God has a long term plan, the lion will lay down with the lamb and so on, but long term in human terms means thousands of years (at least).
I find this an immoral decision by God then. He has the ability to teach them better and failed to do so. I would not let my children so whatever they want.

2) God didn't write the bible - however you want to interpret 'inspired' it quite clearly doesn't mean God just wrote it. Here it gets a bit more complicated - if you actually study the community guidelines, rules, the implicit spirit of the law in Deuteronomy (etc) and compare it with Assyria, Egypt and other contemporaneous societies it's actually pretty inspiring. You can look into it and make your own mind up - then you could have an opinion on it that relates to something other than whatever random notions happen to go through your head. Some periods of Sumerian civilisation seem to have been comparable to some degree (some periods decidedly weren't). No offence, but questions of the sort 'why wasn't there a 21st century society 2 millennia before Christ' are just plain stupid.
Many Christians in the US believe what the bible says was inspired by god. To believe forced slavery at any time in history is just stupid. The fact is that people were being forced into slavery and God did nothing about it. You have better morals than that I bet.

Finally, you can demonstrate that your question is in good faith, something more than a shrill and pointless rant, by showing how it could be/could have been done. We're at a point in Western civilisation, i.e. where we've killed enough people who wanted to do things differently that we can settle back and reflect on how nice we all are now we don't have to fight for our survival. That could all deteriorate pretty quickly following some major disaster, so your task is to show humanity how to do it - how do you take the whole of humanity, either 4,000 years ago or in some post-apocalyptic future, and ensure that from the whole mass you bring out some shining civilisation that can somehow navigate its way towards becoming a guiding light for the world (or at least a more or less democratic/civilised society) somehow bypassing along the way all of the steps it took to get to that point? You have said how wrong it all is, here's your opportunity to put God straight and show him how it all be done. For extra points you could demonstrate how you'd respond now to future complaints about how we run society now, and show how all the things we do badly now could all just be solved with a snap of your fingers.
Simple. If I was God and loved the people I created I would bypass all of this pain and suffering, make them perfect as he is going to anyway and let everyone into heaven and enjoy them forever. Oh and I would at least tell them to not own each other as property.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You're going to have to explain why you think this makes sense.
What does not make sense about it? God told people to not do many immoral acts that hurt others but neglects forced slavery and beating slaves.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Ok, what's your solution? How would you have run things in Mesopotamia or some other region of the world in the ancient world?

I don't think one post qualifies me to 'keep' doing anything. Slavery was an everyday part of life at that time. Using your extensive knowledge of the ancient world, please explain how it might have been otherwise.
If I was God I would have abolished the practice of slavery. Could God not have done that?
 
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Ok. I try to derive morality from the facts about what makes human life good. If I'm smart, I suceed. If I'm dumb I fail. I also lean on the experience of the wise for guidance in discerning human reality.

What makes your morality superior?
That sounds subjective.
 
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Maybe not but why would God make rules for it if He thought it was not good. He made rules against murder disrespecting your parents etc.

I believe my morality is superior to people that think forced slavery is a good thing.
Necessary isn't the same thing as "good", and once again your sense of moral superiority is based on something subjective.
 
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If I was God I would have abolished the practice of slavery. Could God not have done that?
Funny how a limited mortal man of the 21st century believes can be better than the creator of the Universe.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Necessary isn't the same thing as "good", and once again your sense of moral superiority is based on something subjective.
I agree. Do you disagree that well being for all is a good goal for morality?

Would you write rules or allow rules to be attributed to you that force enslavement on others? You are more moral than the God of the bible as well I bet.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Funny how a limited mortal man of the 21st century believes can be better than the creator of the Universe.
You asked me a question on how I would do things differently if I were God. I answered. How is what god did better than what I would have done?
 
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Tom 1

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If I was God I would have abolished the practice of slavery. Could God not have done that?

If that's what you would have done, you should be able to explain how that might have worked, in the context. That would provide an actual thing to discuss.
 
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cvanwey

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Necessary isn't the same thing as "good", and once again your sense of moral superiority is based on something subjective.

Morals are subjective. However....

1) I bet there exists things in the Bible, for which [you] do not agree. If not, we can test this with the topic of slavery alone.

2) I'm also willing to bet [you] agree with my final assessments about slavery, more-so than what your God allows for, and/or sanctions, and/or etc. If not, we can test this with the same Verses.

If we agree on these (2) points above, then we are in a weird arena about what IS 'moral'.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If that's what you would have done, you should be able to explain how that might have worked, in the context. That would provide an actual thing to discuss.
I would bypass this existence and bring everyone into heaven right away. God is going to make believers sinless in heaven right? So I would just do that from the start for everyone, avoid all the pain and suffering.
 
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cvanwey

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I would bypass this existence and bring everyone into heaven right away. God is going to make believers sinless in heaven right? So I would just do that from the start for everyone, avoid all the pain and suffering.

Agreed. The rest seems unnecessary and superfluous. You are no longer you in heaven anyways. --> No one sins in heaven, regardless of how much 'sin' they committed, prior to heaven.
 
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Tom 1

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So was murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, lying etc. and God specifically said to stop doing those things. Why not for slavery. It seems he could have replaced honor your father and mother with do not own people as property.

This seems a bit random. Are you saying that things are just 'bad' just because, or because someone said so, or something like that? Ethical and moral codes for living have reasons behind them, as you know I'm sure there have been many attempts at defining morality in a whole range of different ways. It seems obvious that it would be impossible to build a civilisation if some of the things you mention - disregard for one's parents, murder, theft, adultery - were rampant and not even considered damaging or negative in some way. There would be chaos, I don't see how a society could function like that. Lying is a much more common sin, but again unchecked it weakens the fabric of any relationship or set of relationships. Idolatry is a different issue, more determining of the overall direction of the society, which could be practically useful, or not, or whatever. Slavery however has been part of how nations and whole civilisations have been built - like it or not, there isn't a single major civilisation slave labour hasn't been a part of. We can now afford to see it as wrong and unnecessary in the West, and our societies are wealthy enough that those who cannot support themselves can be supported, and we are no longer living in such a precarious society. In the ancient world the complete destruction of whole communities was not the unusual event it would be today, and even in the world today there are many, many people who under one definition or another live as slaves did in the ancient world. Why do you think that is? What options do you think are available to them? Why is it happening? These are worthwhile questions, worthwhile in that they take you down the path to understanding things that actually 'are' that have actual existence in the actual world. 'I don't like it it's bad' is the meaningless statement of a child. The only reason you consider slavery to be bad is when and where you were born, if you had been born in another time and place your attitude towards it would be entirely different. Not so with the other sins you mention, as they are by definition barriers to creating any kind of cohesive society.


I find this an immoral decision by God then. He has the ability to teach them better and failed to do so. I would not let my children so whatever they want.

Then you should be able to quickly resolve the world's problems. Here's one for you you could provide a solution for - at some point in the future, if we ever get to it, there may be a wide network of highways designed for self-driving, sustainably fuelled vehicles of one kind or another. Centuries from now, someone might look at how we do things now and be appalled that we turned a blind eye to millions of people being killed or severely disabled every year so that we could drive around in vehicles that also ruined the environment. There's your retrospective problem - how will you stop everyone engaging in this murderous practice?

What does not make sense about it? God told people to not do many immoral acts that hurt others but neglects forced slavery and beating slaves.

To make this a worthwhile discussion you do need to explain your thinking a bit. Your posts give the impression that you haven't really thought about any of this, going through a process of explaining what you mean would give you an opportunity to do that.
 
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Tom 1

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I would bypass this existence and bring everyone into heaven right away. God is going to make believers sinless in heaven right? So I would just do that from the start for everyone, avoid all the pain and suffering.

Well, that's an interesting idea. The idea as I understand it is that this life is a sort of test in that the actual choice to want to be sinless is made and adhered to as much as this might be possible, to make the eventual transformation possible. You can't make a person sinless who doesn't want to be sinless.
 
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