Saved by faith alone

zoidar said:

Everyone says the same thing: "I just follow scripture". Yet "everyone" reads scripture differently, yet many insist scripture interprets itself. I think it's much a question of reasoning, what do I want to believe? Does it make sense? Rather than just say "scripture says this". I was criticized in this thread for reasoning my way to believe in "faith alone". Yet, we all do it, more or less.

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Example of following simple scripture. How is the following not clear? How is it not clear we must do the works of helping the poor or go to hell? If someone understands those verses to mean something different than they do, that is what they choose to do because the message is crystal clear.

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Behold said:

Sure.

faith without works is dead".
I will show you my salvation by my FAITH...
Lot of confusion about "dead faith", because heretics twist this phrase into "dead salvation" or "lost your salvation".
And of course, James is not talking about salvation, he's talking about public discipleship, where you will be perceived in public "by your FRUIT". = YOU< shall know them.

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Are you justified by faith?
If so, then James 2:24 uses the word “justified” in relation to both works and faith. Furthermore, James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James says in James 2:19 that even the demons believe and tremble as an example of the kind of faith not to have. Surely the faith of demons cannot save us.

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). How can a dead faith access the grace of God? It cannot.

Is James talking about salvation here?
I believe he is.

The whole chapter is about showing respect of persons by showing favoritism to the rich brethren over the poor brethren. James case is saying that if one does this they are breaking the royal law of love (James 2:8), and in effect if they were to do this, they would be in essence breaking all of God's laws as a result (James 2:10). The whole faith without works issue is James way of saying that they cannot have the lack of good fruit in loving the poor brethren mentioned in the beginning part of the chapter. John confirms this. John says if any man hate his brother, he is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). The brethren that James was speaking to were hating their fellow brothers by their actions. They had a faith or a belief, but that was not sufficient to save them.

You said:

James is explaining that before MEN, you are justified by your lifestyle.

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Nowhere does James ever say such a thing.
Granted, I am aware that Romans 4:2 is commonly used to make this argument. But Romans 4:2 is in reference to the false heresy of “Works ALONE Salvationism” without God's grace through faith in Christ or the Messiah. For Romans 3:1 alludes to the false heresy of Circumcision Salvationism that was condemned at the Jerusalem council in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?” (Romans 3:1). For the false heresy of Circumcision Salvationism taught that one had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved instead of having faith in Jesus Christ. If a person were to believe this, they would be making Works ALONE (or the Law ALONE) the basis for their salvation (Instead of believing that one is saved first by having faith in Jesus Christ). This is why Paul spoke in the way that he did. Paul still alludes to the problem of Circumcision Salvationism in Romans 4 (See: Romans 4:9-12). In Galatians: Paul says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2). Circumcision is something that is a part of the Old Testament Law that is no more. New Covenant believers are to follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. Paul is not teaching in Romans 4:2 that works are only an indication of being justified by works before men only and not God. In James 2, we learn that Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac upon the altar. Yet, nobody was around to see them. No man was able to see his works to be justified by his works before men. Abraham and his son were alone. In fact, God rewarded Abraham for what he did, which shows that he was justified by what he did. By Abraham's actions GOD blessed Abraham's descendants.

This is related to "you shall know them by their fruit."
"you shall know them"...= you shall watch their lifestyle, and discover if they are following Christ or NOT...."by their FRUIT".
See it?

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Jesus says a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit (See: Matthew 7).

Peter says that there are false teachers who cannot cease from sin, and they have eyes full of adultery (See: 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14).

So, this is what James is explaining.....that before people you are justified in THEIR EYES< by your Christian Discipleship, .....so, is it alive or dead? Thats what he is asking you.....Are you walking the walk in life, or are you just trying to troll on a Christian forum and create chaos and arguments because you are a carnal person who likes to upset peace and cause RELIGIOUS strife.?

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Where in the context of James 1 or James 2 do you get this information?

James 1:12 says,
“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

James 1:21 says,
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.”

It doesn't sound like James agrees with you based on the verses above.

Kenny'sID said:

Example of following simple scripture. How is the following not clear? How is it not clear we must do the works of helping the poor or go to hell? If someone understands those verses to mean something different than they do, that is what they choose to do because the message is crystal clear.

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

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I believe most Christians hold to Belief Alone-ism because they are misreading Paul.

I believe there are five things that a believer fails to understand when they read Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, and Romans 11:6.

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law).

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

#3. The Bible speaks against the "False Pharisee Religion" that Paul used to be part of (Which taught: "Law Alone Salvationism" or "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ) (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:9-14). Hence, why Paul said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done but we are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Hammster said:

Those who help do so because they are sheep. Doing good works doesn’t make you a sheep. That’s what Jesus is saying. And in John He says that His sheep hear His voice and follow. It’s not the following Him that make them His sheep.

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If that is what you choose to believe, that is your right. In my view there is nothing unclear about the scripture.

Let me ask you, did you come up with the explanation you present on your own, or were you taught it?

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe most Christians hold to Belief Alone-ism because they are misreading Paul.

I believe there are five things that a believer fails to understand when they read Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, and Romans 11:6.

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law).

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

#3. The Bible speaks against the "False Pharisee Religion" that Paul used to be part of (Which taught: "Law Alone Salvationism" or "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ) (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:9-14). Hence, why Paul said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done but we are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

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Agree, and it's not that confusing if we simply take the time to read things in context and in many cases that means to forget about what some people claim.

Following is another very simple scripture that states another "Do it, or else". Now, if someone doesn't wan op stop doing those things mentioned, they will claim "faith only" and deceive themselves and others there is nothing they can do to earn salvation. As a matter of fact they will claim do ing good for salvation is not good, and we sould feel guilty for doing such things.

Once again, to the OP and others, how is the following not crystal clear, in that we MUST make reasonable effort to stop those things that are mentioned, or we go to hell....so simple. But yes, man will try to twist it into something else. Maybe someone here can explain how the following doesn't mean what it is very clear about?

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Hammster said:

I don’t recall. But if you look at the text, it says nothing of their works making them sheep or goats. The works just describe them. Sheep act like sheep. Goats act like goats. And paired with Christ’s discourse on sheep in John 10, you have to come to that conclusion, or ignore what He said to fit your tradition.

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Amen! Sheep go bah bah BECAUSE they are sheep and not in order to become sheep. Good works are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. Works-salvationists typically confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture and the end result is salvation by works/works righteousness and the sad part is they don't even seem to realize it.

Hammster said:

Those who help do so because they are sheep. Doing good works doesn’t make you a sheep. That’s what Jesus is saying. And in John He says that His sheep hear His voice and follow. It’s not the following Him that make them His sheep.

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On what basis does God designate some sheep and others goats?

Kenny'sID said:

Agree, and it's not that confusing if we simply take the time to read things in context and in many cases that means to forget about what some people claim.

Following is another very simple scripture that states another "Do it, or else". Now, if someone doesn't wan op stop doing those things mentioned, they will claim "faith only" and deceive themselves and others there is nothing they can do to earn salvation. As a matter of fact they will claim do ing good for salvation is not good, and we sould feel guilty for doing such things.

Once again, to the OP and others, how is the following not crystal clear, in that we MUST make reasonable effort to stop those things that are mentioned, or we go to hell....so simple. But yes, man will try to twist it into something else. Maybe someone here can explain how the following doesn't mean what it is very clear about?

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

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There are many clever workarounds that folks have used to explain away such verses. Some say that this passage is referring to unbelievers only. I have heard once before that “not inheriting the kingdom of God” was in reference to not recruiting believers. When clearly “inheriting the kingdom” is in reference to entering God's kingdom in Matthew 25:34 (Which is contrasted with being told to depart into everlasting fire in Matthew 25:41). Some try to say that Jesus, James, Peter, and John taught a different set of teachings that were for the Jews only, and Paul taught an entirely different set of teachings that were for the Gentiles only (i.e. MAD, or Mid Acts Dispensationalism). This again is another attempt to try and avoid in doing what God commands of us. Even Paul teaches sin can destroy us, and Sanctification as a part of salvation. However, Paul preached more heavily on grace because of the heresy of Circumcision Salvation.

Kenny'sID said:

Example of following simple scripture. How is the following not clear? How is it not clear we must do the works of helping the poor or go to hell? If someone understands those verses to mean something different than they do, that is what they choose to do because the message is crystal clear.

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

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Kenny? Ignorance is our worst enemy. You need to understand some verses that precede the ones you plucked out of their context.

Jesus was speaking to Jews in Matthew 25.. He was also speaking about the terrible time of the Tribulation that Jews will face on earth during that time.

The context shows that will take place right after the Tribulation ends. He will then gather all the nations before Him. Do you understand that?

That is not clear to you because you have neglected locating a good teacher to explain these things. You are being left to your own devises.

Believers during the Tribulation will be facing horrific persecution and many will be imprisoned, and many others left to starve and in need of clothing. The sheep will help them. The goats will neglect doing anything.

In Christ..

zoidar said:

I think what you say is interesting, but persecution of Christians is taking place allready. Christians are as far as I know the most persecuted group in the world.

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Jesus was not talking to the church. Jesus was teaching Jews, as a rabbi would teach Jews, according to the OT Scriptures they did know. They did know about the Millennium on earth. That is what many Jews were hoping Jesus was the Son of David who came to set it up for them.

Hammster said:

But if you look at the text, it says nothing of their works making them sheep or goats. The works just describe them.

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That scripture is is so clear I don't see why anyone would even bother to attempt to twist it, it's impossible to do.

Take care of the poor and go to heaven, don't, and go to hell.

Bible Highlighter said:

There are many clever workarounds that folks have used to explain away such verses. Some say that this passage is referring to unbelievers only. I have heard once before that “not inheriting the kingdom of God” was in reference to not recruiting believers. When clearly “inheriting the kingdom” is in reference to entering God's kingdom in Matthew 25:34 (Which is contrasted with being told to depart into everlasting fire in Matthew 25:41). Some try to say that Jesus, James, Peter, and John taught a different set of teachings that for the Jews only, and Paul taught an entirely different set of teachings for Gentiles only (i.e. MAD, or Mid Acts Dispensationalism). This again is another attempt to try and avoid in doing what God commands of us. Even Paul teaches sin can destroy us, and Sanctification as a part of salvation. However, Paul preached more heavily on grace because of the heresy of Circumcision Salvation.

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I've heard a few of the workarounds and they can be quite outrageous because they are desperately trying to do way with Gods word, and it simply cannot be done.

Yes, sin can absolutely destroy us, in the here and now, as well as for eternity.

Here is another very simple scripture along the same lines as the last, and one that simply explains how sin can and will destroy us. I would be interested in seeing them change this to mean something else:

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

God just doesn't allow people into heaven that live like the devil. There was a time, not too long ago, when people just knew we had to be good to get to heaven, that was the very basics of it all, Christian = Christ like. Then the false prophets came along and tried to tell us that was wrong, and as I mentioned earlier, thinking doing good will help us get to heaven is actually bad. Yet their very odd interpretations of the bible were still accepted by some, and for one reason only, that is what they chose to believe for their own selfish reasons.

genez said:

That is not clear to you because you have neglected locating a good teacher to explain these things. You are being left to your own devises.

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You mean a man, over the bible.

I'm seeing on this very thread what men do to the word of God, and trust me, the bible, and just a bit of common sense, along with constant seeking of the truth, can be a mighty good teacher.

Think I'll stick with that,

zoidar said:

These are my thoughts: If you have genuine faith you will do those things, not to be saved but because of love.

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But do you HAVE to do those things? The bible says, beyond any doubt, we do...or else.

Yeah yours seems to be popular consensus among some, but there are many I know personally that hold to "faith only", who live like the devil and still think they are saved. Yet one will say, "But they were never saved to begin with" but no one I know has ever proven that. There are plenty that were saved to begin with who fall away.