Soul Sleep vs. ?

HappyHope · Jul 23, 2020

Currently what happens immediately after death for Christians? I'm not terribly concerned because I'm rather preoccupied with life but someone else made me examine my assumptions. If it matters I do lean toward premillennialism.

BobRyan · Jul 23, 2020

HappyHope said:
Currently what happens immediately after death for Christians? I'm not terribly concerned because I'm rather preoccupied with life but someone else made me examine my assumptions. If it matters I do lean toward premillennialism.

1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 11
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

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Adding this for comparison

Albion said:
The conventional Christian view is that we remain conscious .

BobRyan · Jul 23, 2020

HappyHope said:
Currently what happens immediately after death for Christians? I'm not terribly concerned because I'm rather preoccupied with life but someone else made me examine my assumptions. If it matters I do lean toward premillennialism.

premill... and post trib... all the way

Albion · Jul 23, 2020

The conventional Christian view is that we remain conscious as we pass from this life into the afterlife. Some churches, however, subscribe to the doctrine called "soul sleep."

That is considered to be one of the marks of a cult in the view of cult-watchers and many Christians who do not accept soul sleep since it suggests that immortality which was given to Adam by God is not true, but only that the person might be reinvented at some time later on.

Rachel20 · Jul 23, 2020

Eternal life is not eternal life if our soul can perish, even for a moment :

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27-28

It cannot be the case we're given eternal life only at the resurrection, otherwise, while we lay dead, we cannot be Gods based on Jesus own words :

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:31-32

Abraham, long "dead" before the 1st advent, saw the Lord's day and rejoiced :
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

Unfortunately, verses dealing with the bodily resurrection (like 1 Thess 4) are mistaken for soul sleep. But the "redemption" of the body is a separate issue as shown by Paul, who himself believed that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:8 ) :

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:19-23

HappyHope · Jul 23, 2020

BobRyan said:
1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 11
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

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Adding this for comparison

These were the verses I was going off of. But my well-versed grandma made me think I’m missing something big. We usually agree. I might have to sift through some of my college’s academic articles to see the different views. Thanks so much!

HappyHope · Jul 23, 2020

Rachel20 said:
Eternal life is not eternal life if our soul can perish, even for a moment :

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27-28

It cannot be the case we're given eternal life only at the resurrection, otherwise, while we lay dead, we cannot be Gods based on Jesus own words :

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:31-32

Abraham, long "dead" before the 1st advent, saw the Lord's day and rejoiced :
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

Unfortunately, verses dealing with the bodily resurrection (like 1 Thess 4) are mistaken for soul sleep. But the "redemption" of the body is a separate issue as shown by Paul, who himself believed that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:8 ) :

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:19-23

I can see what you are saying. I never associated soul sleep with death death. The time Saul called Samuel back through a witch made me wonder how soul sleep might have worked there. I’m keeping my options openish for now. Thanks!

BobRyan · Jul 23, 2020

HappyHope said:
These were the verses I was going off of. But my well-versed grandma made me think I’m missing something big. We usually agree. I might have to sift through some of my college’s academic articles to see the different views. Thanks so much!

There is another one you should look at -- in Matt 22, I did not add it because it is more complex than the others.

The Sadducees and the Pharisees had a long running debate/battle over the subject of the resurrection and the Pharisees could not convince Sadducees that a future resurrection event was real/literal/true.

So in Matt 22 Jesus provides an air-tight proof for the resurection that the Sadducees could not refute.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

Note: many readers will often forget "that context" above when they see Christ's proof because it challenges a dearly held preference they hold. Try not to do that. Here goes..

Matt 22
23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24 asking, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; 26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.”

29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.

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The "reason" that argument proving the future resurrection of the dead as the only solution to the riddle Jesus gives them -- so effectively silences a Sadducee, is that it requires them to have a certain view of just how active someone is while dead - for Christ's argument to constitute a demand that there must be a literal future resurrection for that OT statement to be true. And the Pharisees admit that this was an iron clad case that the Sadducees could not answer as hostile debate opponents.

If you think about it "That proof" for the future resurrection of the dead - can only work one way for the Sadducees to see it as "proof" that is irrefutable.

Keep this in mind.
1. Sadducees are a hostile audience.. they are not going to take whatever Jesus says that goes against their own beliefs... "just because".. and the Pharisees know that as fact from school-of-hard-knocks experience.
2. Jesus is using "common ground" from scriptures the Sadducees already do accept.
3. The premise points in Jesus' proof - are already fully agreed to by the Sadducees. Namely:

God is NOT the God of the dead
When God spoke to Moses about Abraham at the burning bush in Exodus.. Abraham was already dead.
God did not merely say "I used to be the God of Abraham"
Jesus said there was only one way out of that --> "the future resurrection"

4. It is "putting those points together" that suddenly brings light to their thinking and silences them as they try to find a way out of that tight spot.
5. Meanwhile everyone watching sees that the Sadducees got hammered from a logical-debate POV.

BobRyan · Jul 23, 2020

HappyHope said:
I can see what you are saying. I never associated soul sleep with death death.

In fact in John 11 when Jesus says Lazarus sleeps - he also tells Martha that those who believe on Him "never die" -- He did not consider the soul-sleep state during the first death to be that ultimate state of death. It is merely a dormant state. At night we all physically sleep ... does not mean that at night we are all physically dead.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 23, 2020

HappyHope said:
Currently what happens immediately after death for Christians? I'm not terribly concerned because I'm rather preoccupied with life but someone else made me examine my assumptions. If it matters I do lean toward premillennialism.

Hello Happy nice to meet you. I use to think that we all go to heaven as soon as we die until I started prayerfully reading the bible for myself. Here is what I found in the old and new testament scriptures...

State of the Dead (old and new testament)

It is an interesting topic this one. For me, my understanding of scripture is that death is compared to as a sleep in which all wait until the coming of Christ at which time the dead (those that sleep) will rise from their graves. According to the scriptures we are not in heaven as many claim but await for the 2nd coming...

To be dead is to sleep....

JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

MARK 5:35-39 35, While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, THY DAUGHTER IS DEAD: WHY TROUBLEST THOU THE MASTER ANY FURTHER? 36, As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. 37, And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. 38, And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. 39, And when he was come in, he saith unto them, WHY MAKE YE THIS ADO, AND WEEP? THE DAMSEL IS NOT DEAD, BUT SLEEPS.

MATTHEW 27:50-53 50, Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51, And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52, AND THE GRAVES WERE OPENED; AND MANY BODIES OF THE SAINTS WHICH SLEPT AROSE <These saints were in the grave sleeping not heaven as some claim>, 53, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Note: Sleeping with the fathers means to be dead (these are a few scriptures there are too many to list)....

ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, FELL ON SLEEP, AND WAS LAID UNTO HIS FATHERS, AND SAW CORRUPTION

DEUTERONOMY 31:16 AND THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES, BEHOLD, THOU SHALT SLEEP WITH THY FATHERS; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which i have made with them.

1 KINGS 2:10 SO DAVID SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, and was buried in the city of david.

1 KINGS 11:43 AND SOLOMON SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 14:20 and the days which jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: AND HE SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, and nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 14:31 AND REHOBOAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID. and his mother's name was naamah an ammonitess. and abijam his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 15:8 AND ABIJAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS; AND THEY BURIED HIM IN THE CITY OF DAVID: and asa his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 15:24 AND ASA SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 16:6 SO BAASHA SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN TIRZAH: and elah his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 16:28 SO OMRI SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN SAMARIA: and ahab his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 22:40 SO AHAB SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS; and ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 22:50 AND JEHOSHAPHAT SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2 KINGS 8:24 AND JORAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID: and ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

(Note: MANY MORE IN THE BOOKS OF KINGS, CHRONICLE AND SAMUEL…. etc etc etc)

Others from the old testament that talk of death as a sleep until the resurrection….

JOB 7:21 and why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? FOR NOW SHALL I SLEEP IN THE DUST; AND THOU SHALT SEEK ME IN THE MORNING, BUT I SHALL NOT BE

JOB 14:12 SO MAN LIES DOWN, AND RISES NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, THEY SHALL NOT AWAKE, NOR BE RAISED OUT OF THEIR SLEEP.

PSALMS 13:3 CONSIDER AND HEAR ME, O LORD MY GOD: LIGHTEN MINE EYES, LEST I SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH;

This is what happens when we die until the resurrection of the dead…

ECCLESIASTES 9:3-6 3, this is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and AFTER THAT THEY GO TO THE DEAD. 4, for to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5, FOR THE LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A REWARD; FOR THE MEMORY OF THEM IS FORGOTTEN. 6, ALSO THEIR LOVE, AND THEIR HATRED, AND THEIR ENVY, IS NOW PERISHED; NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN.

PSALMS 7:3-5 o lord my god, if i have done this, if there is injustice in my hands, if i have rewarded evil to my friend, or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; AND LET HIM TRAMPLE MY LIFE DOWN TO THE GROUND AND LAY MY GLORY IN THE DUST. SELAH.

PSALMS 76:5 the stouthearted were plundered, THEY SANK INTO SLEEP; AND NONE OF THE WARRIORS COULD USE HIS HANDS.

PSALMS 115:17 THE DEAD PRAISE NOT THE LORD, NEITHER ANY THAT GO DOWN INTO SILENCE.

JEREMIAH 51:39 "WHEN THEY BECOME HEATED UP, I WILL SERVE THEM THEIR BANQUET AND MAKE THEM DRUNK, THAT THEY MAY BECOME JUBILANT AND MAY SLEEP A PERPETUAL SLEEP AND NOT WAKE UP," DECLARES THE LORD.

JEREMIAH 51:57 i will make her princes and her wise men drunk, her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, that THEY MAY SLEEP A PERPETUAL SLEEP AND NOT WAKE UP," DECLARES THE KING, WHOSE NAME IS THE LORD OF HOSTS.

ISAIAH 26:19 YOUR DEAD WILL LIVE; THEIR CORPSES WILL RISE YOU WHO LIE IN THE DUST, AWAKE AND SHOUT FOR JOY, FOR YOUR DEW IS AS THE DEW OF THE DAWN, AND THE EARTH WILL GIVE BIRTH TO THE DEPARTED SPIRITS.

JESUS SENDING OUT THE 12 GIVING THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT TO RAISE THE DEAD.......

MATTHEW 10:5-8 5, these twelve jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, go not into the way of the gentiles, and into any city of the samaritans enter ye not: 6, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of israel. 7, and as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Note: the dead that sleep are to be risen from the graves and wake from death for the judgement at the second coming. if the dead are already in heaven why would they be raised from the graves at the 2nd coming?

1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17
13, BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU TO BE IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP, THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE. 14, FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15, for this we say unto you by the word of the lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the lord SHALL NOT PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. 16, FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:17, THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55 (feast of first fruits resurrection to eternal life - jesus v 20) 50, now this i say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, behold, i shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52, IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53, for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54, so when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. 55, o death, where is thy sting? o grave, where is thy victory?

PHILIPPIANS 3:10-11 10, THAT I MAY KNOW HIM, AND THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION, AND THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS, BEING MADE CONFORMABLE UNTO HIS DEATH; 11, IF BY ANY MEANS I MIGHT ATTAIN UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

DANIEL 12:2 AND MANY OF THEM THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.

HEBREWS 9:27 AND INASMUCH AS IT IS APPOINTED FOR MEN ONCE TO "DIE" ONCE AND AFTER THIS COMES JUDGMENT

Note: not all sleep or die until the resurrection of the dead….

Elijah never died *2 KINGS 2:11 and Moses raised to life from the dead *DEUTERONOMY 34:5-6; JUDE 1:9. This vision in the gospels of Moses and Elijah represents to the two classes of those in Christ that will be around at the second coming with JESUS. The dead shall be raised to life and their will be others who will not die and will not taste death at the 2nd coming *1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17; 1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55; LUKE 9:27. The scriptures here do not say everyone goes to Heaven when they die. MOSES represents the DEAD in CHRIST. Elijah represents those that do not see death in Christ. All of this happens at the second coming.

1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17 13, But I would not have you TO BE IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14, FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:17, THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55
50, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53, FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, AND THIS MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY. 54, So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. 55, O DEATH, WHERE IS THY STING? O GRAVE, WHERE IS THY VICTORY?

REVELATION 14:13 AND I HEARD A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, SAYING, "WRITE, 'BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHO DIE IN THE LORD FROM NOW ON!'" "YES," SAYS THE SPIRIT, "SO THAT THEY MAY REST FROM THEIR LABORS, FOR THEIR DEEDS FOLLOW WITH THEM."

................

The above scriptures are not exhaustive by any means there is too many scriptures to post on this subject that they would not fit in a single post.

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · Jul 23, 2020

Hell in the old testament is a reference to the grave....

PSALMS 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Is this a reference to Jesus not seeing corruption in the grave)

PSALMS 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

PSALMS 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

PSALMS 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

PROVERBS 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

PROVERBS 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

PROVERBS 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

PROVERBS 15:11 Hell (Hell = sheh-ole', sheh-ole'---From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.) and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

ISAIAH 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

EZEKIEL 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

AMOS 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

JOHN 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

HABAKKUK 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

MATTHEW 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.)fire.

2 PETER 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

REVELATION 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 23, 2020

Other references to the state of the dead....

THE DEAD….

A.: [sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

B.: [knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

C.: [in the grave/s], sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

D.: [2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

E.: [sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4

John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].

Additionally, it is the Righteous who will dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14), for God is a consuming fire [to sin and of Love] (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29) and His ministers a flame of fire (Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7) and His Throne of Fire (Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:5) and His speech fire (2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8) for He is a purifying fire (Malachi 3:3) and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire (Revelation 15:2), and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed (Exodus 3:3), not the wicked [they are burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished.

Hope these scriptures are a blessing and will be helpful. Of course please do not take my words but prayerfully ask JESUS to be your guide and teacher and send you the pormise of his Spirit to guide and teach you his Word.

God bless.

HappyHope · Jul 23, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Happy nice to meet you. I use to think that we all go to heaven as soon as we die until I started prayerfully reading the bible for myself. Here is what I found in the old and new testament scriptures...

State of the Dead (old and new testament)

It is an interesting topic this one. For me, my understanding of scripture is that death is compared to as a sleep in which all wait until the coming of Christ at which time the dead (those that sleep) will rise from their graves. According to the scriptures we are not in heaven as many claim but await for the 2nd coming...

To be dead is to sleep....

JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

MARK 5:35-39 35, While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, THY DAUGHTER IS DEAD: WHY TROUBLEST THOU THE MASTER ANY FURTHER? 36, As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. 37, And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. 38, And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. 39, And when he was come in, he saith unto them, WHY MAKE YE THIS ADO, AND WEEP? THE DAMSEL IS NOT DEAD, BUT SLEEPS.

MATTHEW 27:50-53 50, Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51, And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52, AND THE GRAVES WERE OPENED; AND MANY BODIES OF THE SAINTS WHICH SLEPT AROSE <These saints were in the grave sleeping not heaven as some claim>, 53, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Note: Sleeping with the fathers means to be dead (these are a few scriptures there are too many to list)....

ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, FELL ON SLEEP, AND WAS LAID UNTO HIS FATHERS, AND SAW CORRUPTION

DEUTERONOMY 31:16 AND THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES, BEHOLD, THOU SHALT SLEEP WITH THY FATHERS; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which i have made with them.

1 KINGS 2:10 SO DAVID SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, and was buried in the city of david.

1 KINGS 11:43 AND SOLOMON SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 14:20 and the days which jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: AND HE SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, and nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 14:31 AND REHOBOAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID. and his mother's name was naamah an ammonitess. and abijam his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 15:8 AND ABIJAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS; AND THEY BURIED HIM IN THE CITY OF DAVID: and asa his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 15:24 AND ASA SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 16:6 SO BAASHA SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN TIRZAH: and elah his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 16:28 SO OMRI SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN SAMARIA: and ahab his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 22:40 SO AHAB SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS; and ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

1 KINGS 22:50 AND JEHOSHAPHAT SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2 KINGS 8:24 AND JORAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID: and ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

(Note: MANY MORE IN THE BOOKS OF KINGS, CHRONICLE AND SAMUEL…. etc etc etc)

Others from the old testament that talk of death as a sleep until the resurrection….

JOB 7:21 and why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? FOR NOW SHALL I SLEEP IN THE DUST; AND THOU SHALT SEEK ME IN THE MORNING, BUT I SHALL NOT BE

JOB 14:12 SO MAN LIES DOWN, AND RISES NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, THEY SHALL NOT AWAKE, NOR BE RAISED OUT OF THEIR SLEEP.

PSALMS 13:3 CONSIDER AND HEAR ME, O LORD MY GOD: LIGHTEN MINE EYES, LEST I SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH;

This is what happens when we die until the resurrection of the dead…

ECCLESIASTES 9:3-6 3, this is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and AFTER THAT THEY GO TO THE DEAD. 4, for to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5, FOR THE LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A REWARD; FOR THE MEMORY OF THEM IS FORGOTTEN. 6, ALSO THEIR LOVE, AND THEIR HATRED, AND THEIR ENVY, IS NOW PERISHED; NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN.

PSALMS 7:3-5 o lord my god, if i have done this, if there is injustice in my hands, if i have rewarded evil to my friend, or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; AND LET HIM TRAMPLE MY LIFE DOWN TO THE GROUND AND LAY MY GLORY IN THE DUST. SELAH.

PSALMS 76:5 the stouthearted were plundered, THEY SANK INTO SLEEP; AND NONE OF THE WARRIORS COULD USE HIS HANDS.

PSALMS 115:17 THE DEAD PRAISE NOT THE LORD, NEITHER ANY THAT GO DOWN INTO SILENCE.

JEREMIAH 51:39 "WHEN THEY BECOME HEATED UP, I WILL SERVE THEM THEIR BANQUET AND MAKE THEM DRUNK, THAT THEY MAY BECOME JUBILANT AND MAY SLEEP A PERPETUAL SLEEP AND NOT WAKE UP," DECLARES THE LORD.

JEREMIAH 51:57 i will make her princes and her wise men drunk, her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, that THEY MAY SLEEP A PERPETUAL SLEEP AND NOT WAKE UP," DECLARES THE KING, WHOSE NAME IS THE LORD OF HOSTS.

ISAIAH 26:19 YOUR DEAD WILL LIVE; THEIR CORPSES WILL RISE YOU WHO LIE IN THE DUST, AWAKE AND SHOUT FOR JOY, FOR YOUR DEW IS AS THE DEW OF THE DAWN, AND THE EARTH WILL GIVE BIRTH TO THE DEPARTED SPIRITS.

JESUS SENDING OUT THE 12 GIVING THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT TO RAISE THE DEAD.......

MATTHEW 10:5-8 5, these twelve jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, go not into the way of the gentiles, and into any city of the samaritans enter ye not: 6, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of israel. 7, and as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Note: the dead that sleep are to be risen from the graves and wake from death for the judgement at the second coming. if the dead are already in heaven why would they be raised from the graves at the 2nd coming?

1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17
13, BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU TO BE IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP, THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE. 14, FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15, for this we say unto you by the word of the lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the lord SHALL NOT PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. 16, FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:17, THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55 (feast of first fruits resurrection to eternal life - jesus v 20) 50, now this i say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, behold, i shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52, IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53, for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54, so when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. 55, o death, where is thy sting? o grave, where is thy victory?

PHILIPPIANS 3:10-11 10, THAT I MAY KNOW HIM, AND THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION, AND THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS, BEING MADE CONFORMABLE UNTO HIS DEATH; 11, IF BY ANY MEANS I MIGHT ATTAIN UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

DANIEL 12:2 AND MANY OF THEM THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.

HEBREWS 9:27 AND INASMUCH AS IT IS APPOINTED FOR MEN ONCE TO "DIE" ONCE AND AFTER THIS COMES JUDGMENT

Note: not all sleep or die until the resurrection of the dead….

Elijah never died *2 KINGS 2:11 and Moses raised to life from the dead *DEUTERONOMY 34:5-6; JUDE 1:9. This vision in the gospels of Moses and Elijah represents to the two classes of those in Christ that will be around at the second coming with JESUS. The dead shall be raised to life and their will be others who will not die and will not taste death at the 2nd coming *1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17; 1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55; LUKE 9:27. The scriptures here do not say everyone goes to Heaven when they die. MOSES represents the DEAD in CHRIST. Elijah represents those that do not see death in Christ. All of this happens at the second coming.

1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17 13, But I would not have you TO BE IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14, FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:17, THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55
50, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53, FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, AND THIS MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY. 54, So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. 55, O DEATH, WHERE IS THY STING? O GRAVE, WHERE IS THY VICTORY?

REVELATION 14:13 AND I HEARD A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, SAYING, "WRITE, 'BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHO DIE IN THE LORD FROM NOW ON!'" "YES," SAYS THE SPIRIT, "SO THAT THEY MAY REST FROM THEIR LABORS, FOR THEIR DEEDS FOLLOW WITH THEM."

................

The above scriptures are not exhaustive by any means there is too many scriptures to post on this subject that they would not fit in a single post.

Hope this is helpful

Thanks for taking the time here. You rock! You make me feel lazy for not digging in myself.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 23, 2020

HappyHope said:
Thanks for taking the time here. You rock! You make me feel lazy for not digging in myself.

Be blessed dear brother. Ask God to be your guide and teacher and turn away from men (websites and forums) in seeking God's truth. God promises to be our guide and teacher here *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 17:17; 1 JOHN 2:27; HEBREWS 8:11. These promises of course are conditional on continuing to believe and follow Gods' Word and to search for him through his Words. *JOHN 8:31-36. This topic actually links directly into the resurrection of the dead and the judgement.

God bless.

HappyHope · Jul 23, 2020

BobRyan said:
There is another one you should look at -- in Matt 22, I did not add it because it is more complex than the others.

The Sadducees and the Pharisees had a long running debate/battle over the subject of the resurrection and the Pharisees could not convince Sadducees that a future resurrection event was real/literal/true.

So in Matt 22 Jesus provides an air-tight proof for the resurection that the Sadducees could not refute.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

Note: many readers will often forget "that context" above when they see Christ's proof because it challenges a dearly held preference they hold. Try not to do that. Here goes..

Matt 22
23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24 asking, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; 26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.”

29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.

The "reason" that argument proving the future resurrction of the dead as the only solution to the riddle Jesus gives them -- so effectively silences a Sadducee, is that it requires them to have a certain view of just how active someone is while dead - for Christ's argument to constitute a demand that there must be a literal future resurrection for that OT statement to be true. And the Pharisees admit that this was an iron clad case that the Sadducees could not answer as hostile debate opponents.

If you think about it "That proof" for the future resurrection of the dead - can only work one way for the Sadducees to see it as "proof" that is irrefutable.

Keep this in mind.
1. Sadducees are a hostile audience.. they are not going to take whatever Jesus says that goes against their own beliefs... "just because".. and the Pharisees know that as fact from school-of-hard-knocks experience.
2. Jesus is using "common ground" from scriptures the Sadducees do accept.
3. The premise points Jesus states - are already fully agreed to by the Sadducees. Namely:

God is NOT the God of the dead

When God spoke to Moses about Abraham at the burning bush in Exodus.. Abraham was already dead.

God did not say "I used to be the God of Abraham"

Jesus said there was only one way out of that --> "the future resurrection"

4. It is "putting those points together" that suddenly brings light to their thinking and silences them as they try to find a way out of that tight spot.
5. Meanwhile everyone watching sees that they got hammered from a logical-debate POV.

Thank you so much for this!

HappyHope · Jul 24, 2020

BobRyan said:
premill... and post trib... all the way

Pretrib here but eschatology is fascinating. Lots of wonder. All the subcategories under theology are amazing. We have a profoundly formidable (big, frightening & awe-inspiring) God!

*edited *formidable * :sorry:

I need a break from these forums. :swoon:

Albion · Jul 24, 2020

BobRyan said:
1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Ellicott's commentary explains the meaning. It's towards the bottom of the page.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.

BobRyan · Jul 24, 2020

Albion said:
Ellicott's commentary explains the meaning. It's towards the bottom of the page.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.

Pulpit Commentary at that link above.

"They expected that Christ would come immediately and establish his kingdom on earth; and consequently they feared that those who had died would be excluded from it. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren; a phrase often used by the apostle, when he makes a transition to new and important matters (comp. Romans 1:13; Romans 11:25; 1 Corinthians 10:1; 1 Corinthians 12:1; 2 Corinthians 1:8). Concerning them which are asleep; or, are fallen asleep. The death of believers in the New Testament is frequently called "sleep." "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth" (John 11:11). Of Stephen it is said that "he fell asleep" (Acts 7:60). "Many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30). "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished" (1 Corinthians 15:18). "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (l Corinthians 15:51). "He fell asleep" is a common epitaph on early Christian tombstones. It is to be observed that it is not of the dead generally that the apostle speaks, but of the dead in Christ, and especially of those members of the Thessalonian Church who had died. "

"That ye sorrow not. Some suppose that sorrow for our deceased friends is here utterly prohibited; inasmuch as if we had a firm belief in their blessedness we would rejoice and not mourn. But the sorrow here prohibited is a despairing and an unbelieving sorrow; we are forbidden to sorrow as those who have no hope, no belief in a blessed resurrection. The tears of Jesus at the tomb of Lazarus have authorized and sanctified Christian sorrow. "Paul," observes Calvin, "lifts up the minds of believers to a consideration of the resurrection, lest they should indulge excessive grief on occasion of the death of their relatives, for it were unseemly that there should be no difference between them and unbelievers, who put no end or measure to their grief, for this reason, that in death they recognize nothing but destruction. Those that abuse this testimony so as to establish among Christians stoical indifference, that is, an iron hardness, will find nothing of this nature in Paul's words." Even as others; literally, as the rest; namely, the heathen."

=============== I do agree with at least one thing that Ellicott suggests

He says of the term "sleep" -- "it is used of the whole man (e.g., John 11:11, "Lazarus"--not" Lazarus' body"--"sleepeth"), "

- the whole person.. the person themselves not merely "their body"

In fact we know "the body returns to dust" and as Jesus said in Matt 10:28 "they kill the body" -- the body does not "sleep" it is destroyed to the point of returning to dust. But "the person" is dormant -- they sleep... soul sleep apparently.

Hawkins · Jul 27, 2020

Conventional Christian view in recent decades, as perceived by an ex-atheist like me, is that we go to Heaven right after death. I don't feel that this recent conventional view can be correct.

My view is that we will all end up in Hades once our soul departed from our body. The only few exception, such as in the case of Elijah or Enoch, is that some humans are carried to the "paradise" located in the third heaven (or known as Abraham's Bosom) which is not part of Hades. Those in Abraham's Bosom are conscious to continue to work for God as witnesses.

Elijah and Enoch are referred to as "did not taste death", that is, without the process of descending to Hades. Jesus (as by Apostles' Creed) ever descended to Hades ('hell' can be used on occasions as an equivalent of Hades/sheol). Some saints tasted death but later are brought to Abraham's Bosom. This includes Moses. That's how Moses and Elijah are with Jesus on the mountain.

The rest of human kind will naturally descend to Hades after death, believers and unbelievers alike. The Jews believe that Hades are somehow zoned. Good souls go to a place in Hades also named as paradise. Bad souls are in another zone. I think that this is figuratively close to what it is, but it's not exactly what happens.

Psalm 139:8 (NRSV)
If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.

I believe that the good souls will be put to a deep sleep such that they don't need to experience the tormenting time in between death and resurrection. This moment they fall asleep, the next moment it is time to wake up. They feel nothing in between. The wicked however are conscious in Hades. A special case seems to be Samuel. It seems that Samuel was originally in a "rest", but was woken up later (i.e., when Saul called). Samuel may end up in Abraham's Bosom (to me more likely than being put to a sleep again).

All left is how did humans of Noah's lineage hear the gospel, which remains a mystery.

Jesus is YHWH · Jul 27, 2020

2 Cor 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be present with the Lord - The idea of Paul is, that the Lord Jesus would constitute the main glory of heaven, and that to be with him was equivalent to being in a place of perfect bliss. He had no idea of any heaven where the Lord Jesus was not; and to be with him was to be in heaven. That world where the Redeemer is, is heaven. This also proves that the spirits of the saints, when they depart, are with the Redeemer; that is, are at once taken to heaven. It demonstrates:

(1) That they are not annihilated.

(2) that they do not sleep, and remain in an unconscious state, as Dr. Priestley supposes.

(3) that they are not in some intermediate state, either in a state of purgatory, as the Papists suppose, or a state where all the souls of the just and the unjust are assembled in a common abode, as many Protestants have supposed; but,

(4) That they dwell with Christ; they are with the Lord (πρὸς τὸν Κυρίον pros ton Kurion). They abide in his presence; they partake of his joy and his glory; they are permitted to sit with him in his throne; Revelation 3:21.

The same idea the Saviour expressed to the dying thief, when he said, "today shalt thou be with me in paradise;" Luke 23:43. Barnes

hope this helps !!!

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