Covenant and New Covenant theology

claninja · Jul 22, 2020

Original Happy Camper said:
please define the law of Moses, does it include the ten commandments?

The laws of Moses are the roughly 613 commands found in the first 5 books of the Bible. Yes they include the 10 commandments.

Dave L · Jul 22, 2020

claninja said:
Correct.

And I'm sure, then, you are familiar with the fact that the northern kingdom (house of Israel) was divorced from God due to their disobedience and became no longer his people, while the southern kingdom (house of Judah) remained in covenant with Him then, right?

Jeremiah 3:8 She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot.

Hosea 1:4-9 And the Lord said to him, “Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Call her name No Mercy,a for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Lord their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.” When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son. And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People,b for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

And I'm sure that you are aware, that God did promise that one day, they (northern kingdom/house of Israel) would again be his people along with the kingdom of Judah under one head?

hosea 1:10-11 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Childrene of the living God.” and the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Paul declares this very passage from hosea, about the northern kingdom (house of Israel) again being his people with the children of the house of Judah, as fulfilled with the Jews and Gentiles coming together under Christ.

Romans 9:23-25 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

Ok.

Which part did I "read into"?

Paul is very clear that gentiles "were at a time" separate from the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, but now they are one with the Jews under Christ.

Ephesians 2:12-19 Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

According to the NT what do Jews, who are not a part of the body of Christ, inherit?

Paul says they remain under God's wrath until the end of time. Ony some who accept Christ will be reattached to biblical Israel under Christ.

mkgal1 · Jul 22, 2020

Dave L said:
Paul says they remain under God's wrath until the end of time.

"Time of the end" (end of the covenant....end of the age)....not "end of time". But that may be another discussion.

Dave L · Jul 22, 2020

mkgal1 said:
"Time of the end" (end of the covenant....end of the age)....not "end of time". But that may be another discussion.

Paul says the uttermost = end. And we are to preach the gospel until the end comes.

mkgal1 · Jul 22, 2020

Dave L said:
Paul says the uttermost = end. And we are to preach the gospel until the end comes.

I don't disagree that we should continue to spread God's Good News until our end.....but I believe wrath was a part of the Mosaic Covenant package....not a part of the New Covenant that we are now under.

God's wrath - I believe - was poured out on those that were under the Mosaic Covenant that ended in the first century.

Romans 4:15 ~ because the law brings wrath.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 ~ As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.

Acts 13:38-41
Take heed therefore, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you: 41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH; FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS, A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Lexicon: hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
"Telos" = time of completion....fulfillment

Dave L · Jul 22, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I don't disagree that we should continue to spread God's Good News until our end.....but I believe wrath was a part of the Mosaic Covenant package....not a part of the New Covenant that we are now under.

God's wrath - I believe - was poured out on those that were under the Mosaic Covenant that ended in the first century.

Romans 4:15 ~ because the law brings wrath.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 ~ As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.

Acts 13:38-41
Take heed therefore, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you: 41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH; FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS, A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Lexicon: hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
"Telos" = time of completion....fulfillment

“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Luke 21:24 (NCPB)

Who are the gentiles trodding down Jerusalem? When Christ abolished circumcision the unbelieving Jews became gentiles by default.

mkgal1 · Jul 22, 2020

Dave L said:
“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Luke 21:24 (NCPB)

Who are the gentiles trodding down Jerusalem? When Christ abolished circumcision the unbelieving Jews became gentiles by default.

I agree that "Gentile" = unbelievers or those that failed to keep the Law (so that would apply to those old covenant Jews that rejected Jesus).

The Jewish zealots and the Roman army in 66-70 AD are who troddened Jerusalem when the New Covenant was being brought in and the Mosaic Covenant was ending.

Guojing · Jul 22, 2020

claninja said:
Correct.

And I'm sure, then, you are familiar with the fact that the northern kingdom (house of Israel) was divorced from God due to their disobedience and became no longer his people, while the southern kingdom (house of Judah) remained in covenant with Him then, right?

Jeremiah 3:8 She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot.

Hosea 1:4-9 And the Lord said to him, “Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Call her name No Mercy,a for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Lord their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.” When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son. And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People,b for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

And I'm sure that you are aware, that God did promise that one day, they (northern kingdom/house of Israel) would again be his people along with the kingdom of Judah under one head?

hosea 1:10-11 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Childrene of the living God.” and the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Paul declares this very passage from hosea, about the northern kingdom (house of Israel) again being his people with the children of the house of Judah, as fulfilled with the Jews and Gentiles coming together under Christ.

Romans 9:23-25 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

Ok.

Which part did I "read into"?

Paul is very clear that gentiles "were at a time" separate from the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, but now they are one with the Jews under Christ.

Ephesians 2:12-19 Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

According to the NT what do Jews, who are not a part of the body of Christ, inherit?

Yes, I have said many times in this thread, in the body of Christ, we are one, regardless of Jews and Gentiles.

But as Romans 11 indicated, there is still a separate destiny for national Israel. God had not abandoned them, because of the unconditional covenant he made with Abraham.

Read this passage slowly, Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

We gentiles are coming into the body of christ NOW, while national Israel is blinded.

Once all the gentiles come in, the same national Israel shall be saved. The term Israel in verse 25 and 26 refers to the nation.

Original Happy Camper · Jul 22, 2020

claninja said:
The laws of Moses are the roughly 613 commands found in the first 5 books of the Bible. Yes they include the 10 commandments.

so why were the ten commandments ordered by the LORD to be put in the ark under the mercy seat and the laws that Moses wrote put on the side of the ark?

jgr · Jul 22, 2020

Guojing said:
Yes, I have said many times in this thread, in the body of Christ, we are one, regardless of Jews and Gentiles.

But as Romans 11 indicated, there is still a separate destiny for national Israel. God had not abandoned them, because of the unconditional covenant he made with Abraham.

Read this passage slowly, Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

We gentiles are coming into the body of christ NOW, while national Israel is blinded.

Once all the gentiles come in, the same national Israel shall be saved. The term Israel in verse 25 and 26 refers to the nation.

National Israel.

The entire human race.

Acknowledged and applauded by the Jewish community itself.

Why don't you believe them?

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Guojing · Jul 22, 2020

jgr said:
National Israel.

The entire human race.

Acknowledged and applauded by the Jewish community itself.

Why don't you believe them?

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

What do you think Paul is saying in those 2 verses? Let's understand scripture first before going into non bibilical sources.

jgr · Jul 22, 2020

Guojing said:
What do you think Paul is saying in those 2 verses? Let's understand scripture first before going into non bibilical sources.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Guojing · Jul 22, 2020

jgr said:
Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

When you say "believers from among the Gentiles", what do you mean?

Vs 25 already stated that the fulness of the Gentiles must enter the Body of Christ first, before vs 26 can happen. So how can there still be "believers from among the Gentiles" saved after that?

jgr · Jul 22, 2020

Guojing said:
Vs 25 already stated that the fulness of the Gentiles must enter the Body of Christ first, before vs 26 can happen.

Nothing says or implies that verse 25 must be completed before verse 26. The verses describe the process whereby "all Israel", the Church, is built. Believing Gentiles and believing Jews are continually added to "all Israel", the Church, during this time. At the end, "all Israel", the Church, is saved from eternal destruction through salvation in Christ.

Guojing · Jul 22, 2020

jgr said:
Nothing says or implies that verse 25 must be completed before verse 26. The verses describe the process whereby "all Israel", the Church, is built. Believing Gentiles and believing Jews are continually added to "all Israel", the Church, during this time. At the end, "all Israel", the Church, is saved from eternal destruction through salvation in Christ.

The verse in 26 began with "and so", you don't understand what "so" means in English?

Okay since you don't want to read those 2 verses literally, I can see how you hold on to that particular doctrine of yours.

jgr · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
The verse in 26 began with "and so", you don't understand what "so" means in English?

Okay since you don't want to read those 2 verses literally, I can see how you hold on to that particular doctrine of yours.

Romans 11:26 Greek

3779 [e]
houtōs
οὕτως
so
Adv

Strong's Concordance
houtó and houtós: in this way, thus
Original Word: οὕτως
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: houtó and houtós
Phonetic Spelling: (hoo'-to)
Definition: in this way, thus
Usage: thus, so, in this manner.

Guojing · Jul 23, 2020

jgr said:
Romans 11:26 Greek

3779 [e]
houtōs
οὕτως
so
Adv

Strong's Concordance
houtó and houtós: in this way, thus
Original Word: οὕτως
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: houtó and houtós
Phonetic Spelling: (hoo'-to)
Definition: in this way, thus
Usage: thus, so, in this manner.

"thus" implies vs 26 is true because of vs25 correct?

Dave L · Jul 23, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I agree that "Gentile" = unbelievers or those that failed to keep the Law (so that would apply to those old covenant Jews that rejected Jesus).

The Jewish zealots and the Roman army in 66-70 AD are who troddened Jerusalem when the New Covenant was being brought in and the Mosaic Covenant was ending.

Possibly, but I see the times of the gentiles beginning in that period, the excommunicated Jews placed under wrath as gentiles until the end of the world. And the gospel preached to all nations (gentiles) until the end of the world meaning there is no millennium. (Thanks for all of your enlightening posts).

BABerean2 · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
Yes, I have said many times in this thread, in the body of Christ, we are one, regardless of Jews and Gentiles.

But as Romans 11 indicated, there is still a separate destiny for national Israel. God had not abandoned them, because of the unconditional covenant he made with Abraham.

Read this passage slowly, Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

We gentiles are coming into the body of christ NOW, while national Israel is blinded.

Once all the gentiles come in, the same national Israel shall be saved. The term Israel in verse 25 and 26 refers to the nation.

The unconditional covenant God made with Abraham is found fulfilled in Matthew 1:1, and is confirmed below by the Apostle Paul. This verse kills modern Dispensational Theology, because it reveals that Christ is the one seed to whom the promise was made. He is the one seed in Matthew 1:1.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Your doctrine attempts to ignore the verse above and replaces the one seed (Christ), with the many seeds.
It is the ultimate form of "Replacement Theology".

Have all Israelites been "partially" blinded as Dispensationalists infer, or have part of the Israelites been blinded, and part of the Israelites have not been blinded?
The truth is found in the "remnant" of Romans 11:5.

We are often told by Dispensationalists this blindness will last until the times of the Gentiles is finished.
Based on the words of Christ below, the times of the Gentiles will come to fullness at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Modern Dispensational Theology is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race. It is not found in the New Testament.

The greatest error of the doctrine is the claim that God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary. The truth is found in Christ's final words on the cross, in John 19:30.
That moment was the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

.

Guojing · Jul 23, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The unconditional covenant God made with Abraham is found fulfilled in Matthew 1:1, and is confirmed below by the Apostle Paul. This verse kills modern Dispensational Theology, because it reveals that Christ is the one seed to whom the promise was made. He is the one seed in Matthew 1:1.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Your doctrine attempts to ignore the verse above and replaces the one seed (Christ), with the many seeds.
It is the ultimate form of "Replacement Theology".

Have all Israelites been "partially" blinded as Dispensationalists infer, or have part of the Israelites been blinded, and part of the Israelites have not been blinded?
The truth is found in the "remnant" of Romans 11:5.

We are often told by Dispensationalists this blindness will last until the times of the Gentiles is finished.
Based on the words of Christ below, the times of the Gentiles will come to fullness at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Modern Dispensational Theology is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race. It is not found in the New Testament.

The greatest error of the doctrine is the claim that God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary. The truth is found in Christ's final words on the cross, in John 19:30.
That moment was the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

.

To be clear about your views, you don’t believe in the tribulation and the 1000 year millennium reign after that right?

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