Saved by faith alone

Hammster

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Would you cast your own child into hell just cuz they make mistakes and disobey you from time to time? I should hope and think not
People who have the theology of BH can only see the communion with Christ, and not the Union with Christ. They then read verses about how the communion can be affected as it being the union which is affected. And then they place burdens on Christians. It’s very pharisaical.
 
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Hammster

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How can I know I'm saved if salvation depends on my works? I have to look at myself, right? That's where my problem started. I could never see me good enough.
And that’s because we can never be good enough. Praise God for Christ’s active obedience, and that we are in Christ.

If you look through the NT, that’s how Christians are described most often, as being in Christ.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It's poetic. From this we could draw the conclusion that you don't need faith to be saved, since love is bigger than faith. Some liberal Christians believe that. Even a Buddhist or a Muslim can be great in love. Not fully sure how to understand it, more than the love of Christ to us and through us is the biggest thing.

Perhaps but then we’d be ignoring countless verses that specifically state that faith is necessary for salvation. This is why we shouldn’t formulate doctrines based on bits & pieces of scriptures but instead the whole message in its entirety.
 
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Hawkins

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How can I know I'm saved if salvation depends on my works? I have to look at myself, right? That's where my problem started. I could never see me good enough.

The big picture is, humans don't actually have the ability to measure one's faith. If you have faith in something, how much faith? No one can tell exactly. The significance of New Covenant is a shift from an objective judgment of Law to a subjective judgment of Jesus/God. Only Jesus/God can have a precise measurement of one's faith to decide whether he lies in the requirement laid by the New Covenant.

If so then how can we know whether one is saved. We can't precisely however we can roughly estimate by one's works as works are a reflection of faith. Faith without works is dead. It means you don't have faith if it's not reflected in your works. This is for everyone who know you, including Christians in your church, to estimate who you are. However in a similar situation, no one actually know you precisely as only God has the ability to know your heart and your deeds on a 7/24 basis. All others are evaluating your works which shall (but you can pretend in front of humans) reflect your faith if you didn't pretend.

If you are not changed by faith in terms of works, it could mean that you are not actually second born yet. It means you need to find a way to rely on Jesus Christ more, to boost up your faith. If you still can't overcome, keep praying as praying itself reflects your good works of relying on Jesus/God. You are actually better than those who have a self delusion to think that they are perfect in every way but failed to see how sinful they actually are. At least, you are not blinded by one's self pride. Pray and repent, they are good deeds from a Christian.
 
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Behold

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If God forces us to be saved after making a one time decision for Christ, then why doesn't God just force everyone to be saved in the same like manner?


Salvation is an offer.
John 3:16. for God so Loved that He GAVE....and whosever will come, let them come.

God gives us free will. WE have a choice.
We see before us the end of our lives on this earth....this gets closer everyday... so, will we choose to exist with God, where He is... after we die, or will we choose to not.
God honors our CHOICE.

No one is sent to hell.
They end up there because they had all their lifetime to choose NOT TO GO.

Heaven and Hell are DESTINATIONS.
We get to CHOOSE.
God honors our CHOICE after we die.
 
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Danthemailman

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And the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).
The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (verse 27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground (verse 25). The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all were not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer and it's obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.

*The children of Israel were called "servants" but they were not all saved. Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen..

The children of the kingdom are said to be cast into outer darkness. "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12).
Being "children of the kingdom" did not necessarily mean they were saved. This term refers to those to whom the kingdom rightfully belongs. The natural claim to that kingdom had been given to the JEWS/ISRAELITES and they were not all saved. You need to rightly divide the word of truth.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32): When the prodigal son came home from his riotous life of sin and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again." The son was said to be "lost" and now he is "found." Generally when we talk about the "lost" in the Bible, they are the unsaved or spiritually lost. In other words, the parable is utilizing spiritual terms. The son was spiritually dead when he was living a life of sin, and when he came back home to the father and sought forgiveness with him, he became alive again spiritually. This truth is confirmed by James 5:19-20.
CONTEXT. All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, "This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) In this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually.

People in the NOSAS camp interpret this parable as the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually.

I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS).

This truth is confirmed by James 5:19-20.

In regards to James 5:19-20, *Notice - Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died." "Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit."

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

You can even be in the Kingdom and be cast out because of sin or iniquity.
Those who work iniquity are not genuine believers. (Matthew 7:21-23)
 
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Swag365

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I just wanted to point out the difference between what James and Paul were teaching. James is not teaching that we are justified (made right by God) by our works and faith while Paul was teaching that we are not justified (made right with God) by our works and faith. James’ reference was that Abraham’s works were evidence of his faith, not that Abraham was made right with God by his works along with his faith. If works and faith play a role in justification then the Judiasers were right and Paul had no reason to rebuke Peter.
You are completely wrong.

My guess is that you view righteousness as imputed rather than infused and that this is the fundamental basis for our disagreement.
 
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Dkh587

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Just a point is needed please.

The Gospels were Jesus setting Judaism straight.

Moses, the Prophets & the Messiah did teach Judaism.

The Pharisees taught Phariseeism. Not Judaism. Jesus taught perfect Judaism.

Both the Pharisees and Sadducees were killed and wiped out in 70AD when Rome destroyed Jerusalem.
Perhaps you don’t know what Judaism is, since you are conflating it with the faith that Moses, the Prophets & the Messiah taught.

Judaism is what Paul excelled in:

Galatians 1:13-14
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in Judaism, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

And profited in Judaism above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

notice that Paul equates Judaism to “the traditions of my fathers”.

The Pharisees were practicers and promoters of JUDAISM, which is why they asked the Messiah this question:

Matthew 15:2
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

nowhere will you see any prophet or apostle teach or promote any form of Judaism.

Paul left/denounced Judaism to follow the faith of Messiah, Moses & the Prophets.

He was against Judaizers, who were trying to convert followers of the Messiah into Judaism. Judaism does not teach the correct way of being righteous before God, which is faith.
 
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Danthemailman

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I just wanted to point out the difference between what James and Paul were teaching. James is not teaching that we are justified (made right by God) by our works and faith while Paul was teaching that we are not justified (made right with God) by our works and faith. James’ reference was that Abraham’s works were evidence of his faith, not that Abraham was made right with God by his works along with his faith. If works and faith play a role in justification then the Judiasers were right and Paul had no reason to rebuke Peter.
In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous (Abraham was not saved by works) but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
 
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Albion

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Could I ask another question? This may be very hypothetical but suppose someone feels that they have a faith and that they believe and trust in God as much as they can.
Suppose also though that they don't notice any changes in their lives. They're not bearing any fruit such as finding any peace for example. I suppose my question is, is this possible?
I don't quite like that example because it seems to me to be focused on what we might get out of a connection with God. That aside, I would think that the answer is in line with what St. James was arguing in his epistle--if we say we have Faith but we do not show any change from our former, sinful ways, it most likely is a claim of Faith, but not a real Faith. That is because, according to James, a real Faith MUST produce changes.

To use a non-theological situation, if any of us says that we have just been won over to some commitment or lifestyle or philosophy through reading a book or seeing a TV personality, something like that, but nothing changes, can it be true? No. We are compelled towards some changes if we are actually won over.

For example, what of a person who says he's become a vegetarian for all the good reasons...but he still eats a hambuger for lunch every day and bacon with his breakfast? Absolutely, we are going to say he is not, in reality, a vegetarian, and we know this from the works or lack of them.

Christ preached love, mercy, kindness towards strangers, respect for one's parents, etc. If we are people of Faith--in Christ--we can hardly avoid doing such things...and just not with a sense of obligation, either. This doesn't meant that we will be instantly made into perfect people, either, but change there just about has to be.

Is it possible to have a real faith but not naturally develop these fruits of the spirit?
Just about impossible, I think most would agree. But again, it's not all or nothing. Change is a process. And the people of Faith will stumble. So do not worry yourself to death keeping score. But if there is no evidence, well...
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think God is like that in our relationship with him as well.

It’s a very nice sentiment but is it supported by scripture? We can’t make assumptions about what God might or might not do based on what we would do. We’re imperfect and don’t have all the information that He has. Personally I would never throw my enemy into a lake of fire but evidently God has a reason that I don’t fully understand for doing this. All I can do is trust that He loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved and that His actions are calculated based on this and He will do everything He can to save as many as He can.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You are completely wrong.

My guess is that you view righteousness as imputed rather than infused and that this is the fundamental basis for our disagreement.

I don’t even think of salvation by those terms. I simply see it as forgiven or not forgiven. When exactly this takes place I don’t really worry about. Honestly I don’t know the difference between imputed righteousness or infused righteousness.
 
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Swag365

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I don’t even think of salvation by those terms. I simply see it as forgiven or not forgiven. When exactly this takes place I don’t really worry about. Honestly I don’t know the difference between imputed righteousness or infused righteousness.
Yeah it is probably a waste of time for a Catholic to engage in these discussions with a non-Catholic because we are operating within differing conceptual frameworks concerning the nature of justification. Have a nice day.
 
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How can I know I'm saved if salvation depends on my works? I have to look at myself, right? That's where my problem started. I could never see me good enough.

No, we are not saved by works alone.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, and then by Sanctification (which includes holy living, works, putting away sin by the power of God). We are not saved by works alone. That is what Paul was arguing against (by which people twist his words to say we do not need to do anything for the Lord to be saved after we are saved by His grace and we can live however we please). Nobody can be saved by works alone without God's grace. For a person's past slate needs to be wiped out in order to be saved or forgiven. But if we accrue new sin on our account (after being saved by God's grace), we need to take care of it by confessing our sins, and forsaking them (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7). If we don't take care of new sin accrued in our life after being saved by God's grace, then this will happen....

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26).

Belief Alone-ism folk or Faith Alone Proponents falsely assert that there is only two options in the ballgame here. They assert that salvation is either solely by God's grace or they say the other option is works alone (Which is false). They don't understand that Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. They don't understand that Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. They don't understand that James said in James 4:6 that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
 
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I think Zoidar was commenting on whether or not salvation depends on works, not whether we are saved by works, period.

I don't see the difference. The false argument by Faith Alone Proponents is that they set up a false dichotomy between two versions of salvation that don't exist.

(a) Saved solely by God's grace through faith alone in Jesus, or:
(b) Saved by works alone.​

Clearly Paul was against being saved by works alone. So the Faith Alone Proponent would be correct to condemn this view. But somehow they think that the requirement of works after we are saved by God's grace equates with “option (b).” It doesn't. There is a difference between:

#1. Being saved by God's grace + Sanctification

vs.
#2. Being saved by works ALONE salvationism (Which is a false charge that gets thrown our way a lot).​

Paul says that a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). So Paul is not against the Sanctification Process in regards to salvation (after we are saved by God's grace). It's not even our own works for us to boast in, either (Ephesians 2:9). But it is the work of God being done through us (Philippians 2:13).
 
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Albion

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I don't see the difference.
Well, if we say "not saved by works alone" (as you did) we criticize a position that almost no one takes.

Who here, for instance, says that anybody who is merciful will certainly have earned salvation? i.e. that's all it takes.

The majority of Christians belong to churches which teach that works PLUS FAITH merit salvation, however, so that's where the focus should be, pro or con.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yeah it is probably a waste of time for a Catholic to engage in these discussions with a non-Catholic because we are operating within differing conceptual frameworks concerning the nature of justification. Have a nice day.

Well this is why we have CF so that we can learn from others and view other perspectives of God’s word. If we only see it from one viewpoint we might not see the whole picture. Bless you my friend.
 
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Well, if we say "not saved by works alone" (as you did) we criticize a position that almost no one takes.

But that is what many imply. They give it as an either or situation between being saved by God's grace or by works alone. They don't factor into the equation how both can be harmonized together or how one can flow out of the other. They cry “works salvation” so as to imply something that is not true.

You said:
The majority of Christians belong to churches which teach that works PLUS FAITH merit salvation, however, so that's where the focus should be, pro or con.

This is Calvinistic thinking that is totally backwards to what Scripture teaches. In many circles of Calvinism: They say that it is wrong for a person to believe that they exercised faith in the Lord, or that they called upon the Lord and sought His forgiveness. They see these things as works. They think faith is a gift, when it is not.

But no. The majority of evangelical Sola Scriptura churches believe in Faith Alone and or that you are saved by God's grace through faith alone and it is not in anything that you do. Meaning, that you cannot lose salvation via by sin. So then... one will then sin on some level and think they are saved by God's grace. But our Lord warned us about being lukewarm.
 
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Albion

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But that is what many imply.
Do they? I don't know a single Christian denomination that takes that view, so you must be speaking strictly about what the anonymous "man on the street" says.

But in any case, it isn't what Zoidar wrote.

That's what got me to offer that little note, not to argue the whole Faith/Works issue from scratch.
 
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