The Great Tribulation: 66-70 AD, or

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Nonsense. The context of both passages is what took place in what was ancient history to the time it was written by the above epistle authors.

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Are you claiming that being placed in chains long ago was not being "bound" in some manner?

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Are the angels in the verse below "bound" in some manner?

Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."


Your arguments are an attempt to claim Satan cannot be bound in any manner, at the present time.

However, the texts above prove that angels have already been "bound" in some manner.

Satan was "bound" in one manner during his attack on Job.
God told Satan he could not take Job's life.

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Nonsense. The context of both passages is what took place in what was ancient history to the time it was written by the above epistle authors.

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Either Satan would have to have been always bound, or not bound yet. Who are the brethren in Revelation 12:10 and 1 Thessalonians 2:9? Yes angels have been bound since before the Flood. Yet we still see Satan with angels fighting. It does not look like a conclusive point in time but over time about a third of the angels ended up rebelling. It was an ongoing symbolic process via the historical note of Revelation 12. The battle with Michael is not figurative nor symbolic. Michael is a literal angel. Satan was not cast out 1990 years ago. Satan currently has access, and is currently still accusing us night and day. If folks here cannot feel the accusations and manipulation of Satan, they must not be doing much to bother Satan.

shilohsfoal said:

If you drive off a cliff and your head Is smashed flat as a pancake, but you have covid 19,it is counted as a covid death. Yea.covid may kill. 5 billion before its over with the way the government counts.
But at least they found a cure for heart attacks and stokes. Who would have ever thought covid could bring an end to heart attacks?

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The apostle Paul thought he was a great Pharisee eradicating the church, until God changed his name and life around. Are you mocking God, or modern theolgy?

Timtofly said:

Sounds like the same argument that one who accepts evolution over millions of years to the Words of God in Genesis.

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How so?

You are the one claiming God Mislead multiple generations of Christians into believing a falsehood, are you not?
I'm simply asking How you reconcile that?

Doesn't seem to be a difficult to understand question... perhaps a difficult one for you to answer tho?

One day God will answer you.

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I'm hoping, rather, that YOU can answer me, and account for YOUR belief that God mislead His people...

If my post are that objectionable why do you need to excuse yourself?

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You post is not objectionable to me in the sense I need to excuse myself from the dialogue... on the contrary it fascinates me how A Christian can rest his view on the belief that The Christian God purposefully Mislead His people into believing and teaching a falsehood....What I said is I personally reject that view outright... but I continue to be fascinated by how you personally reconcile it... I remain hopeful you'll choose to enlighten me about that.

Perhaps having the Holy Spirit fire in one's testimony produces the fact that all things happen sooner than later.

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What does that mean?

You are asking the wrong person though.

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I don't think so... I'm asking YOU to reconcile YOUR beliefs that, in my view, pose an insurmountable problem ... I can't ask anyone else to justify your beliefs... as they are YOURS, held by you alone.

parousia70 said:

How so?

You are the one claiming God Mislead multiple generations of Christians into believing a falsehood, are you not?
I'm simply asking How you reconcile that?

Doesn't seem to be a difficult to understand question... perhaps a difficult one for you to answer tho?



I'm hoping, rather, that YOU can answer me, and account for YOUR belief that God mislead His people...


You post is not objectionable to me in the sense I need to excuse myself from the dialogue... on the contrary it fascinates me how A Christian can rest his view on the belief that The Christian God purposefully Mislead His people into believing and teaching a falsehood....What I said is I personally reject that view outright... but I continue to be fascinated by how you personally reconcile it... I remain hopeful you'll choose to enlighten me about that.


What does that mean?



I don't think so... I'm asking YOU to reconcile YOUR beliefs that, in my view, pose an insurmountable problem ... I can't ask anyone else to justify your beliefs... as they are YOURS, held by you alone.

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What is your belief? If your are making an argument in objection to a fact, you are creating a strawman fallacy. You are inserting your own belief.

I never stated a belief. I stated the facts. 2 facts: 1, the teaching in the NT of a soon return. 2. That teaching was 1990 years ago. Neither facts are a belief I came up with.

Now, is there a difference between interpretation and belief? I do not have to believe nor interpret facts that cannot change. What would you call your objection to these two facts? Does your interpretation or belief change these two facts? Are the facts wrong or your objection? If neither of these facts existed, would you even make an objection?

Furthermore I do believe there is still a soon return. If it does not happen, then I am wrong. I am not wrong because I made the claim 1990 years ago. I am not that old. I do not even make the claim because some living humans made the claim 1990 years ago. So the only objection you have is why did any one claim that 1990 years ago. Otherwise you would claim I am wrong for making it this week. It is not even a belief. It is an actual experience of knowledge. The issue is you are working on belief. Unless you have knowledge on the matter, that you do not object to.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Being restrained and being bound are two different things. You need to understand the difference. If Satan was bound, he would have not been able to bring any harm upon Job whatsoever.


"Cannot" is not a word you can use when talking about whether or not Satan HAS BEEN bound during the last 1,990 years - it falsely implies that God is unable to bind Satan at any time He chooses.

Again, you need to understand the difference between restricting and binding. God has not bound Satan yet - but I'm pretty sure he has restricted Satan in his activities multiple times - the last 1,990 years being no different to the time of Job or any other time, past, present or future.

James 4:7
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

1 Pet 5:8-9
"Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up, whom resist, stedfast in the faith, having known the same sufferings to your brotherhood in the world to be accomplished."

Eph 6:10-13
"As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might; put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

because of this take ye up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to resist in the day of the evil, and all things having done--to stand."

Eph 2:2
" in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,"

So it still all boils down to your word vs the apostle's warnings and exhortations, and Rev 12:17.

I prefer to believe the apostles' word, and the Revelation.

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Do you believe there is a future time period when all the nations will be "deceived" into forming a one world government, before the Second Coming of Christ?


Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Once I re-read your post I'm quoting below and understood what you were saying where I first misunderstood some of it, I can change that to "Agree". In fact I think I'll go back and change my rating for this post below to "Winner":

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It is an interesting topic. I was taught that the witnesses were based on "all have to die", thus that would be just Enoch and Elijah. However, how do you reconcile that Moses appeared on the mount of transfiguration? It is infered that they had glorified bodies. If Moses actually died, how did he appear with Jesus before the Cross? He should be in sheol with the rest of OT saints. Then in Jude we read, Satan and death never received the body of Moses. Really? So did Moses die or not? If Moses died, then the 2 witnesses have nothing to do with dying at all. Why kill Elijah? If Enoch was a human that never died, and Elijah came, as in, a miraculous way, what if Elijah was the return of Enoch? If you study the 3.5 year ministry of Elijah the meaning of the place he was from, means sojourner. Was Elijah the man in linen in Daniel 10:5? Then another in likeness is Elihu in Job. I am not saying it was Elijah, but it is interesting that a man shows up more righteous than Job.

Then the next fact is the 2 and 2. That seems to indicate 4 witnesses. But who really can say if olive trees and candlesticks are meaning one type indicates OT and NT, Or being so interconnected, means one olive tree from the OT and one from the NT. The same with the candlesticks. Now we know that the witnesses die in Revelation 11. But if one was born in the first century and transported to be an actual witness like Elijah was in the OT, the only candidate would be John the beloved. The one Jesus told Peter, "What is it to you if he lives to see the return?" If John is an actual witness to these events called the tribulation and Second Coming, he would mirror the life of Elijah as an NT witness. It is quite reasonable after he is one who is killed and ascended to heaven, he would also witness the end of the 1000 years, and would return to deliver the 7 letters to the 7 churches in person. Also Moses prophecied there would be a prophet just like him. Some seem to indicate Jesus, except Moses was a sinner who disobeyed God in at least one act. Jesus may have been similiar, but could not be a sinner, just like Moses. That is my study on who could be who. Two Moses type witnesses and 2 Elijah type witnesses. They may be connected to the 4 beast. 4 humans set apart as witnesses for God. Similar to the 24 elders. Sorry if this is getting too off topic. The other thread is all over the place. Unless there are questions, that is about all I have to say about it.

Personally, I think the church still has the keys and can still change the course of prophecy. That John lived it and recorded it, does not make it a fact. Now that may be controversial. That is why I think Revelation 14 is one ending and 13, 15, and 16 is an alternate ending. If post trib, preterist, amil or post mil argue that it all has already happened, they have more to explain, about a non existence of a beast and the so called mark 666. According to their logic this can never happen historically nor figuratively. How does one get their head cut off symbolically? Those who use "cash only" do not do it because they trust God. They do it to avoid paying taxes to the government. Why do you think the push to make drugs legal is for? The government wants as much control over the drug industry, and the ability to tax it as well.

All I point out is that God's will has the 8 days of the Second Coming week remain just that, 8 continuous days. That Satan is allowed to interupt it is not God's choice. Whose choice or who can possibly fail that would provide the chance to Satan? It is the church, waking up out of the great falling away. Perhaps a Moses to lead a church out, except Moses only had a few weeks to convince a bunch of slaves who wanted to be set free. This Moses has an apostate church, deceived by Satan. A church represented by people dead set against Revelation even being literal. Then the other half wanting a verse from the Bible as proof of every point. The church cannot just keep getting better, because evolution introduces defects, not perfection. Even if tribulation is supposed to leave just a perfect few, how does a church wake up to prevent a random outcome? God says, "If my people, called by my name, repent, pray, humble themselves, seek God's face, and turn from wickedness." That is not just letting nature take her course. That is a willing church with the will to have God heal their land.

parousia70 said:

You post is not objectionable to me in the sense I need to excuse myself from the dialogue... on the contrary it fascinates me how A Christian can rest his view on the belief that The Christian God purposefully Mislead His people into believing and teaching a falsehood....What I said is I personally reject that view outright... but I continue to be fascinated by how you personally reconcile it... I remain hopeful you'll choose to enlighten me about that.

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How well do you know God's Word, the Bible parousia? Not well enough, in my opinion, or you wouldn't ask such pointed and accusing questions.

Read 2 Chronicles 18:19-23 and Ezekiel 20:23-26. Both say that God can and does send a lying spirit upon those He wants to.
Don't you realize that your preterist notions fall flat in the simple fact of there having been nearly 2000 years of intra Advent time. That the Church has been expecting Jesus to Return for all that time is all part of Gods Plan. An extremely clever plan that did have the desired result of the Church being ready and in expectation for all that time.
WE are the generation who will see Jesus Return, but if this is wrong, then we will have been ready, just as all our forefathers were.

Timtofly said:

I never stated a belief. I stated the facts.

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Let me again remind you of the belief you stated:

Each and every generation was to expect the Second Coming to be soon and in that generation.

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With respect, you have not at all demonstrated this to be an established Biblical Fact. This is something you simply believe.
This is not something the Bible teaches.

I'm simply pointing out that for this belief to BE fact, it requires God purposefully misleading multiple previous generations, beginning with the apostles' generation and leading up to the present, into a FALSE expectation, because the Biblical FACT is that the event can not be "soon and coming in each and every generation"... the Biblical Fact is, the event was pre ordained for one generation ONLY. (Acts 17:31)

So, again I ask, WHY do you believe God Purposefully mislead multiple generations, 2 millennia worth and counting, into holding and teaching this false expectation? What was the purpose of such willful misdirection?

Who, in your view, determined that every generation "was to [falsely] expect" this event to befall them in their generation, and why?

keras said:

How well do you know God's Word, the Bible parousia? Not well enough, in my opinion, or you wouldn't ask such pointed and accusing questions.

Read 2 Chronicles 18:19-23 and Ezekiel 20:23-26. Both say that God can and does send a lying spirit upon those He wants to.
Don't you realize that your preterist notions fall flat in the simple fact of there having been nearly 2000 years of intra Advent time. That the Church has been expecting Jesus to Return for all that time is all part of Gods Plan. An extremely clever plan that did have the desired result of the Church being ready and in expectation for all that time.
WE are the generation who will see Jesus Return, but if this is wrong, then we will have been ready, just as all our forefathers were.

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Tell me Keras... How did the Christian from the year 1650, or 1250, or 625AD or....who expected and taught the end was coming soon in His generation, Benefit from that belief and teaching any differently than His Christian Neighbor who held no such false notion, and simply went about spreading the gospel? How did the Church benefit from it?

Please Demonstrate this "desired result" you speak of, that would ostensibly not have taken place otherwise. So far all I see is pure speculation on your part, driven solely by your previously held Bias.

Also... your examples are of no merit for comparison..
Show me an example of God Deliberately misleading His own Flocks for the purpose of those being misled Growing closer in relationship to Him.
Neither of your examples demonstrate this.

keras said:

WE are the generation who will see Jesus Return, but if this is wrong, then we will have been ready, just as all our forefathers were.

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If this is wrong, How does you having been "ready" for an event that didn't take place in your lifetime after all, benefit you in the end any greater than the Christian who harbored no such false expectation?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Yes, because Christ is yesterday, today and forever, from everlasting. You don't understand time.

No - especially not if we interpret them as only referring to what took place in the 1st century. The One who said,
"I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." is the One who said to John,
"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be after this,"

Past, present and future. Unless you don't understand time.

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I understand time perfectly... it's person who claims the infallible, Apostolic declaration of "Must shortly take place for the time is near" does not really mean what it says and actually means the POLAR OPPOSITE, is the one who doesn't understand Time.

Randy777 said:

There is but one great tribulation and it comes on the whole world. It is still to come.
The beast in Daniel, the gospels in 2thess and revelation is conquering everything for those 42 months. Even the saints. In all those cases when the time runs out, which was shortened for the sake of the elect, Jesus or noted God or the Lord appears and destroys the beast and the armies following the beast and pronounces judgment in favor of the saints of the most high. That didn't happen in the 1st century. In Zach 14 the mount of olives is split in two to make a way of escape from the surrounding armies. Those armies are destroyed from above NOT mankind. That didn't happen in the 1st century. Go and see if the mount of olives is whole.

The bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments for with them His wrath has been completed. They are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. The beast that kills the two witnesses in "Jerusalem" after their testimony has been completed which the "whole world" looked on. That beast was noted to reign for 42 months. Jesus destroys that beast at His coming for the great battle of God almighty. Rev 16:15

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Yes this is true! It can only happen at the end of the age just before Jesus returns. By comparing where the words "great tribulation" is used gives us a solid time frame context:

21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25“Behold, I have told you in advance.

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The context where all arrive out of the great tribulation is just after the sixth seal and before the trumpet judgments begin. These same three signs are what Jesus told us to watch for when the great tribulation is cut short. This is when His parousia takes place, the rapture/resurrection, and His presence is known and felt throughout the earth.

The linkage with Mat 24 and the writings of Paul is clear when you compare the word parousia and "presence" (before the face) in Rev 6. Rev 19 does not have this word. Why? Because He already came at the sixth seal! He is already present and active with His judgments (His year of payback for the controversy of Zion Is. 34:8) and is getting ready to take possession of the earth after the last bowl.

This information and knowledge changed my viewpoint from pre and post trib, and may help others who are searching.


parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: a presence, a coming
Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ.
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]


12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Running2win said:

Yes this is true! It can only happen at the end of the age just before Jesus returns. By comparing where the words "great tribulation" is used gives us a solid time frame context:

21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25“Behold, I have told you in advance.

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The context where all arrive out of the great tribulation is just after the sixth seal and before the trumpet judgments begin. These same three signs are what Jesus told us to watch for when the great tribulation is cut short. This is when His parousia takes place, the rapture/resurrection, and His presence is known and felt throughout the earth.

The linkage with Mat 24 and the writings of Paul is clear when you compare the word parousia and "presence" (before the face) in Rev 6. Rev 19 does not have this word. Why? Because He already came at the sixth seal! He is already present and active with His judgments (His year of payback for the controversy of Zion Is. 34:8) and is getting ready to take possession of the earth after the last bowl.

This information and knowledge changed my viewpoint from pre and post trib, and may help others who are searching.


parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: a presence, a coming
Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ.
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]


12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

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So, do you plan on fleeing to the mountains when you see the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem?

parousia70 said:

Show me an example of God Deliberately misleading His own Flocks for the purpose of those being misled Growing closer in relationship to Him.

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Matthew 13:25 tells us that God has taken away the wisdom of the wise and learned.
This is evident in the great proliferation of theories and doctrines about Gods Plans for our future.
You, yourself are an example of this confusion. Because of your belief in the false teaching of preterism, you are made incapable of understanding the truth of the end times.
Why else would so many be deceived with the 'rapture' theory and pastors so against even discussing Bible prophecy?

We cannot know God's Mind, but looking at this situation, it IS how God wants it to be.
Many prophesies tell us that it will only be AFTER the events have happened, that most will finally understand.
Daniel 12:10 does say; a few will know before.
With your fixed beliefs, pariousia, you won't be one of them.