Mandatory Masks and the Orthodox Church with Subdeacon Mark

I'll watch this one later!

Hegumen Seraphim of the Mull Monastery of Celtic saints also recently made a video discussing the issue of masks in church.

I watched Monk Seraphim.

Two and half hours is a little more time than I had to invest (yet). I hope to watch that one at a later time.

Wearing masks in enclosed public buildings, including our churches became mandatory by our governor here in Colorado. My son, Nicholas, and I made it to our parish church right after communion. I haven't been since mid-March. Originally, I didn't want to go just to receive communion, but because of my shoulder injury, I can't do the nearly hour drive and spend an hour and a half standing and sitting that long, then the drive back. Too much pain. Thankfully, my priest gave us communion after the liturgy ended. I wore a mask when I stepped into the narthex, out of obedience, even though I don't think the church is full of disease. My son refused to wear the mask. He sees it as blaspheming against our Lord. TBH, I don't disagree.

will check these out, thanks!

AMM said:

I'll watch this one later!

Hegumen Seraphim of the Mull Monastery of Celtic saints also recently made a video discussing the issue of masks in church.

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I don't agree with him. I don't like how he makes it seem like not wearing a mask is especially sinful or that it's in some way 'evangelical' to wear them.

There are very few people who I've met who take the mask order seriously, as it's clearly seen as absurd, so I highly doubt that wearing them means anything to most people. I only wear one when I know I'm with someone who is suffering as a hypochondriac, because I don't want to exasperate anything - nobody else cares.

Just because the Bishop says to, okay, obedience is one thing, but I also know that neither my priest or my Bishop cares about it - we've really only been asked to wear it when we are visible on camera. It's very clear we're only satisfying secular leaders only out of some sense of... umm... 'staying under the radar.'

What moral imperative is there to follow every order of (what my Patriarch has called) "the health security forces." Every proponent of mask wearing I've encountered has been unable to show the existence of a moral imperative. And again, from above, it's clear that neither my priest nor my bishop believe there is a moral imperative for mask wearing.

As far as obedience to secular leaders are concerned, they have been very open with the fact that they cannot legally enforce any such executive order on the general population. It is an entirely 'voluntary' mandate, which is why enforcement is being done through the health department putting threats of fines or shut downs on businesses and then asking teenage cashiers to enforce it.

Finally, the more people pretentiously claim there is a moral imperative, the greater reason they give not to wear a mask because they expose only a spirit of tyranny and hypocrisy.

You want to go maskless? Im happy to have you all help me at a hospital where we just maxed out our Covid ward and we now are spilling over into our OR. 59 patients, 29 staff Covid positive from 5 and 0 in less than one week. Yesterday while doing rounds, I was standing next to a guy who pulled down his mask and sneezed only standing 3 feet away from me. You sure you want me chanting next to you or serving in the altar without a mask since apparently germs cant enter a church? What happens if I go in and infect a priest? Sigh...

Town sealed off after ancient monastery outbreak

Xenophon said:

..because the Bishop says to, okay, obedience is one thing.

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I was looking for agreement in your post, I agree with the quoted part.

My anecdotal experience is that our parish council cares and takes this very seriously. Our retired, part-time, interim priest who has his own health concerns cares and takes this very seriously. Our Bishop who sent down the guidelines that we follow was not joking and I believe he cares deeply for our parish. We have a significant part of our congregant who are medical professionals, they take this more seriously than anyone else that I know.

I take this seriously and I care. I'm currently working for a small technology firm. We have about 25 employees. We;ve had two positive cases. One was in early April. His symptoms were mild, but he lost taste and smell and those senses have not returned. The second had far more serious 'cold-like' symptoms and has since recovered. My company takes this very seriously.

My daughter is a manger in a small fast-food franchisee. They have five stores. All five stores are along a single, twenty mile corridor that begins with a store in downtown and then proceeds out through the city, into the suburb with the fifth store just across the county line. In that franchisee they have had 15 positive cases and three people have died. Three people my daughter knew as co-workers. My daughter has started calling herself a "sacrificial employee" instead of the more often used "essential employee".
They take this very seriously.

When my son came home from work one day last week and told us a co-worker was out sick and would have to be tested before returning - and IF that co-worker tested positive he (my son) would be required to quarantine for fourteen days and have a negative test before returning to work. We were quite relieved when the test came back as the flu and not COVID-19.

You may think this is a joke. I don't.

FenderTL5 said:

I was looking for agreement in your post, I agree with the quoted part.

My anecdotal experience is that our parish council cares and takes this very seriously. Our retired, part-time, interim priest who has his own health concerns cares and takes this very seriously. Our Bishop who sent down the guidelines that we follow was not joking and I believe he cares deeply for our parish. We have a significant part of our congregant who are medical professionals, they take this more seriously than anyone else that I know.

I take this seriously and I care. I'm currently working for a small technology firm. We have about 25 employees. We;ve had two positive cases. One was in early April. His symptoms were mild, but he lost taste and smell and those senses have not returned. The second had far more serious 'cold-like' symptoms and has since recovered. My company takes this very seriously.

My daughter is a manger in a small fast-food franchisee. They have five stores. All five stores are along a single, twenty mile corridor that begins with a store in downtown and then proceeds out through the city, into the suburb with the fifth store just across the county line. In that franchisee they have had 15 positive cases and three people have died. Three people my daughter knew as co-workers. My daughter has started calling herself a "sacrificial employee" instead of the more often used "essential employee".
They take this very seriously.

When my son came home from work one day last week and told us a co-worker was out sick and would have to be tested before returning - and IF that co-worker tested positive he (my son) would be required to quarantine for fourteen days and have a negative test before returning to work. We were quite relieved when the test came back as the flu and not COVID-19.

You may think this is a joke. I don't.

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What have I said that would indicate that COVID is a joke? I've not said anything denigrating COVID to being an unserious disease.

My question is, why do you and (maybe, if that was also directed towards me) GreekOrthodox, react as you do and without reference to anything I've said?

Xenophon said:

What have I said that would indicate that COVID is a joke?

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You said and I quote (with emphasis added),
"There are very few people who I've met who take the mask order seriously, as it's clearly seen as absurd, so I highly doubt that wearing them means anything to most people. I only wear one when I know I'm with someone who is suffering as a hypochondriac, because I don't want to exasperate anything - nobody else cares.
.. I also know that neither my priest or my Bishop cares about it - we've really only been asked to wear it when we are visible on camera. It's very clear we're only satisfying secular leaders only out of some sense of... umm... 'staying under the radar.'

My question is, why do you and (maybe, if that was also directed towards me) GreekOrthodox, react as you do and without reference to anything I've said?

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In my previous post, I noted that I was looking for an area of agreement. You gave very little in that regard.
Since your post was mostly anecdotal, speaking of those who consider this: not to be taken seriously, absurd, nobody cares, that neither your Bishop nor priest cares..
I gave my anecdotal response as to why those around me do indeed care and do indeed think this is serious. We wear our masks when in public places, we wash our hands routinely and use hand sanitizer, we keep our distances.. in short, we care.

I think the virus issue is in the gray. It's not one extreme side or the other. It's caring about people getting sick and some dying from it. It's also understandable to question how well the masks are working because of so many conflicting doctors' and scientific data/studies on that other issues regarding how the virus strikes. For example, it used to be just a respiratory illness. Then it was a blood issue, as well as some other things I've heard, including brain damage. I'm somewhere in the middle. I wear my mask where it is required in my state - enclosed buildings. I do that for two main reasons: following the rules and respecting others. Do I like wearing the masks? No. But whether I like it or not isn't really important. I wash hands and use hand sanitizer while out. Social distance where necessary. My husband and oldest son have different views than me. In any case, one who is sick who enters the church can, I believe, make another person sick if they are near them and spread their germs, like any other virus/sickness. But I certainly do not believe one gets sick from His Body and Blood or the vessels that deliver his Body and Blood (or the icons, for that matter) - I do consider it a disbelieve in the divinity of Christ, disrespecting him, and yes, it is blasphemous. Elders of Saints have said so.

But there are some people hinging everything on a vaccine for a virus that will come and go when it pleases. We have little control over it, just like any other virus. Science shows coronaviruses on average last two years. This was true with SARS and MERS. Incidentally, chloroquine showed good results on patients with SARS. Doctors who have used hydroxychloroquine early in the stages of the virus have been successful at the proper doses. There was confusion because some were using way too high of doses. There have been news on using T-cell and plasma therapies/treatments. Thankful there are some meds and treatments out there. I think they are and will be more effective than a hurried vaccine. I know I won't be taking it if it does come about.

Enough evidence shows that the virus spreads easily in enclosed spaces because of the ventilation system/recirculation of air. I've been worried about nursing homes since this started. I also worry about my son going to school all day long for two reasons: His having to wear a mask for nearly 8 or more hours a day, and being in the enclosed space with the ventilation system. Thankfully, we parents had a choice of whether our kids want to do online again or in-person attendance. I let my younger son decide. He choose online. And I was glad at this point.

My priest told us on Sunday in announcements after church that they've been petitioning St. Nikoforos the leper for his prayers that the virus goes away. Apparently, he answered some folks (don't know who) and told them it would go away. We don't know when though. Praying treatments and herd immunity quicken the virus' dissipation, as it weakens over time.

FenderTL5 said:

You said and I quote (with emphasis added),
"There are very few people who I've met who take the mask order seriously, as it's clearly seen as absurd, so I highly doubt that wearing them means anything to most people. I only wear one when I know I'm with someone who is suffering as a hypochondriac, because I don't want to exasperate anything - nobody else cares.
.. I also know that neither my priest or my Bishop cares about it - we've really only been asked to wear it when we are visible on camera. It's very clear we're only satisfying secular leaders only out of some sense of... umm... 'staying under the radar.'

In my previous post, I noted that I was looking for an area of agreement. You gave very little in that regard.
Since your post was mostly anecdotal, speaking of those who consider this: not to be taken seriously, absurd, nobody cares, that neither your Bishop nor priest cares..
I gave my anecdotal response as to why those around me do indeed care and do indeed think this is serious. We wear our masks when in public places, we wash our hands routinely and use hand sanitizer, we keep our distances.. in short, we care.

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I thank you for looking for an area of agreement. I'm sorry if it went past me.

Okay, so I understand why you said, "You may think this is a joke. I don't." But care about what? There isn't a lack of caring about people over here, but a lack of care about a 'mandate' in reference to the video.

The local church cares about the people and, therefore, about appearances before a hostile government. So when the video says "obey your bishop," I am. But that isn't the same as wearing a mask.

That people in my secular community don't generally obey the legally questionable mandate and haven't. What outreach then is there in wearing a mask? The Hegumen's idea that somehow wearing a mask spreads the gospel or whatnot, doesn't make any sense. Am I to be the evangelist of child-murdering governor who for whatever reason wants people to wear masks (the reason being irrelevant) or the gospel?

Your community being different and more prone to following whatever is the local mandate (or no mandate) you are under may or may not have any impact on the assertion that wearing a mask has some evangelical impact.

And finally, there is no moral imperative for wearing a mask given anywhere - outside of obedience to the bishop, which is not applicable here.

So, why the pretense?

And a moral imperative is a very specific thing that demands action. The endless parade of cultural propaganda about the topic cannot provide a moral imperative, nor can any merely material fact.

If any of this were presented in some way that gave an imperative outside of basic courtesy, then I'd have to act in accordance with it or sin.

Hegumen Seraphim, God bless him for his sincerity, conflates mask wearing with sin without a moral imperative, it's a pretense and it is ineffective.

I'm looking for a specific thing and it's not being presented. Instead it's just 'you're bad and you should feel bad.' Which is the same thing that I grew up with.

Xenophon said:

I'm looking for a specific thing and it's not being presented. Instead it's just 'you're bad and you should feel bad.' Which is the same thing that I grew up with.

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Okay. I think I may understand.
In my opinion, just a guess based on my perception of things.
The purpose of wearing a mask (along with the other aspects of the mandates) is to prevent the spread of COVID-19. The masks, primarily, are beneficial to those around the wearer. There is some benefit for the wearer, but it's primarily for others. Hegumen Seraphim is equating you and I wearing a mask with loving our neighbors, helping to prevent them from contracting what is a very serious infection.
The inconvenience we bring on ourselves, is done in the interest of protecting, caring for, loving our neighbors.
That's my understanding.

{edit to add}
further, in my community*, it is considered rude, inconsiderate and selfish to NOT wear the mask during the mandate.
So a Christian's refusal to wear PPE would be inhibitive to evangelism in that limited scope.

* I mean immediate and church community. For many others it is a political statement for one position or the other.

Justin-H.S. said:

That’s what I understood Monk Seraphim’s point to be as well, in which case it wasn’t particularly profound or enlightening. It was just secular reasoning cloaked in Christianese.

The question is: How is a cloth mask going to stop a virus when my underwear and pants can’t stop my farts? /s

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If the virus were transmitted by smell, you may have a point.

It's a virus and is carried in the water/vapor of one's breath, cough or sneeze. The cloth mask will stop some of that moisture. It also slows the momentum of the air, much like a pop filter in front of a microphone. So, the mask coupled with distancing can reduce the spread by reducing the distance the vapor droplets travel.

( Resisting the urge to mention just how your underwear is effective on wet farts)

GreekOrthodox said:

You want to go maskless? Im happy to have you all help me at a hospital where we just maxed out our Covid ward and we now are spilling over into our OR. 59 patients, 29 staff Covid positive from 5 and 0 in less than one week. Yesterday while doing rounds, I was standing next to a guy who pulled down his mask and sneezed only standing 3 feet away from me. You sure you want me chanting next to you or serving in the altar without a mask since apparently germs cant enter a church? What happens if I go in and infect a priest? Sigh...

Town sealed off after ancient monastery outbreak

Click to expand...

Sadly appeals to reason fall on deaf ears lately. Ive been dealing with the reality of this awful virus for months in my ER and vividly describe the human suffering I’m seeing only to be given a response akin to “if we change our habits the terrorists win.”

We have our share of folks who do not really care about the health of other people, they just don't want to inconvenience themselves by wearing a mask. They will NOT be bullied by a tyrannical government. Who are we to tell them otherwise. Just gotta live with it, guys

I know a number of people (including clergy, monastics, and pious lay people whom I look up to and seek to emulate) who take the mask order seriously.

And I'm really not sure that the comparison to concealed carry guns is relevant or beneficial. They're not really analogous