The Two Witnesses Chart

iamlamad said:

Huh?

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What isn't clear?

There is no '7 year tribulation' with the 'great tribulation' as the '2nd half'.

Also, the beast is a different entity than Mystery Babylon.

Douggg said:

Since this comes up so much, I thought I would make a chart. Right click on the chart and select view image - to make it easier to see.



View attachment 281313

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Here is the simple flaw in your chart, the 'man of sin' (is it the antichrist or False Prophet?) is revealed when he is anointed the messiah. Not 'half way through the 7 years'.

Douggg said:

It is two men, individuals, not groups of people. I would think of the two, more likely Elijah, because of his more direct connection with Israel. And the other many think will be Moses. I am not adamant about either. I lean to one of the two witnesses being Elijah. Or it could be neither, but two end times individuals, who God prepares to be the two witnesses.

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I believe it is Moses and Elijah because they were witnesses at Christ's first coming. It makes sense that they would herald in His second coming. For the Bible is consistent.

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe it is Moses and Elijah because they were witnesses at Christ's first coming. It makes sense that they would herald in His second coming. For the Bible is consistent.

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Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
(See Romans 11:24 for the Olive Trees, and Revelation 1:20 for the lampstands.)


Moses died, and was buried.

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
Deu 34:7 Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished.
Deu 34:8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.


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As a Pre-Wrath believer, I think the two witnesses will be two real prophets dressed like the OT prophets, no reason not to take this literally. Probably Enoch and Elijah. I also believe they have to start their ministry before the last 3.5, otherwise they would not be foretelling what will be coming and what to watch for. Just makes sense to me that they warn people about the AC before he comes on the scene.

Most agree the last week is split in 3.5 years, but this does not mean the two witnesses have to start and end at the start or exact middle of the 70th week, they are just said to prophecy 3.5 years or 1260 days.

The way things are going I believe this decade will answer a lot of our prophecy questions and sort out the truth from error.

1Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2“Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

7When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Running2win said:

Most agree the last week is split in 3.5 years, but this does not mean the two witnesses have to start and end at the start or exact middle of the 70th week,

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Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century, based on the scripture found above.

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BABerean2 said:

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
(See Romans 11:24 for the Olive Trees, and Revelation 1:20 for the lampstands.)


Moses died, and was buried.

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
Deu 34:7 Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished.
Deu 34:8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.


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Right, so then what happened at the transfiguration on the mount?
How are the two witnesses able to be raised?
Why would the world rejoice at the death of these TWO witnesses and give gifts to each other?
They breath fire out of their mouths, etc. They don't sound like symbols of the church or a representation of something else. They sound like real people.

In the OT, Moses was around things like lampstands. Jesus even spoke about not putting our lamp or light under a bushel, etc.; This was before the NT went officially into effect with His death.

Bible Highlighter said:

They breath fire out of their mouths, etc. They don't sound like symbols of the church or a representation of something else. They sound like real people.

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If you take everything in the passage "literally" the witnesses are made of wood, and metal, like trees and lampstands.

Do you believe they are two men made of wood and metal?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks
standing before the God of the earth.

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Based on the fact above, much of what we find in the passage is symbolic.

The Book of Jeremiah is helpful on the reference to fire from the mouth.

Jer 5:13 And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

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BABerean2 said:

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century, based on the scripture found above.

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I believe the 70th week awaits a future fulfillment because Gabriel tells us everything listed in the Scripture below pertains to the Jewish people and Jerusalem. Only after the 70th week is finished will we see all these things listed completed for people (Israel) and the holy city (Jerusalem). IMO, this cannot made any clearer than it was by Gabriel.

Thus watching for events to unfold in Israel with the Jewish people and esp. the city of Jerusalem is the biggest sign of where we are at in Gods prophetic program for a discerning Christian.

This is why Jesus pointed back to Daniel in His Olivette Discourse, everything is focused on Israel, the Jewish people, and the surround nations before His return. Why is this? Because He will save the remnant that went through the fire and then set up His 1000 year Messianic Kingdom ruling the nations from Jerusalem who are left and remain with a rod of iron.

24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

1The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.

3And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4And He will judge between the nations,
And will render decisions for many peoples;
And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.

Running2win said:

I believe the 70th week awaits a future fulfillment because Gabriel tells us everything listed in the Scripture below pertains to the Jewish people and Jerusalem.

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I have a friend from New Zealand that wrote a book titled "The Atonement Clock". His name is Christian Gedge. His book gives the best explanation I have seen on the 70 weeks of Daniel, and the ancient Hebrew calendar.

The destruction of the temple does lie outside of the 70 weeks. However, that is not described in Daniel 9:24.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Fulfillment of the above is found below.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

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Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(A total of 69 "weeks" of years. The seven weeks period comes first, and then the sixty-two weeks period follows.)

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(After the sixty-two week period is completed.)

He was cut off "after" the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house "after" 69 weeks, it will be during the 70th week, or later.

457 BC >>> 27 AD announced as the Son at His baptism, and anointing >>> 30 AD sacrificed at Calvary >>>34 AD Gospel also to Gentiles (Gal. 1:14-18)


Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18 reveal a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
Based on the scripture above, this was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

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BABerean2 said:

I have a friend from New Zealand that wrote a book titled "The Atonement Clock". His name is Christian Gedge. His book gives the best explanation I have seen on the 70 weeks of Daniel, and the ancient Hebrew calendar.

The destruction of the temple does lie outside of the 70 weeks. However, that is not described in Daniel 9:24.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Fulfillment of the above is found below.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

..............................................

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(A total of 69 "weeks" of years. The seven weeks period comes first, and then the sixty-two weeks period follows.)

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(After the sixty-two week period is completed.)

He was cut off "after" the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house "after" 69 weeks, it will be during the 70th week, or later.

457 BC >>> 27 AD announced as the Son at His baptism, and anointing >>> 30 AD sacrificed at Calvary >>>34 AD Gospel also to Gentiles (Gal. 1:14-18)


Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18 reveal a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
Based on the scripture above, this was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

.

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Sorry, I don't get that out of Daniel, but thanks for sharing. I'm watching for the signs Jesus gave in the Olivette Discourse, just before He comes again. All prophecy and vision has not been fulfilled with regards to Israel and Jerusalem, and everlasting righteousness is not in place-which is when He reigns. This will not happen until after the second coming of Jesus when He takes possession of this fallen world system, cleans it up with judgments from heaven, lifts the curse, and reigns from Jerusalem on the throne of David. So in my mind the 70th week cannot be finished yet.

30The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

Running2win said:

Sorry, I don't get that out of Daniel, but thanks for sharing. I'm watching for the signs Jesus gave in the Olivette Discourse, just before He comes again. All prophecy and vision has not been fulfilled with regards to Israel and Jerusalem, and everlasting righteousness is not in place-which is when He reigns. This will not happen until after the second coming of Jesus when He takes possession of this fallen world system, cleans it up with judgments from heaven, lifts the curse, and reigns from Jerusalem on the throne of David. So in my mind the 70th week cannot be finished yet.

30The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

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In the verse below we find that Jesus was both "Lord" (ruler), and "Christ" (Messiah) on the Day of Pentecost.

Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", and on that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ as their Messiah.
See the "remnant" in Romans 9:27.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


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