Know Israel=Know Messiah/No Israel=No Messiah

dqhall · Jul 20, 2020

TreWalker said:
There is no such entity as 'the tribe of Christians'. Yet, there are 12 gates in the new Jerusalem all named after the 12 tribes of Israel. Which gate will you eneter?

Agreed

As much as a Jew burning Catholic? Yes.

Have you ever heard of the Jewish historian Josephus?

Testimonium Flavianum
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 [43]

It is an error to assume the only way to God’s salvation is to convert to Judaism. Jerusalem does not have 12 gates anyway. The northern tribes of Israel were deported by the Assyrians and lost their culture.

Did the Jews also keep silent when Native Americans were killed in great numbers, or when Christian villages in Israel were ethnically cleansed, sent to refugee camps. Perhaps you forget American Christian soldiers and British allies liberated the concentration camps, nor are you grateful for Christian support of Israel when Israel was being attacked by Muslim Arab armies. Without a massive US airlift to Israel during the Nixon admin, Israel might have run out of supplies.

tampasteve · Jul 20, 2020

dqhall said:
Have you ever heard of the Jewish historian Josephus?

Testimonium Flavianum
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 [43]

It is an error to assume the only way to God’s salvation is to convert to Judaism. Jerusalem does not have 12 gates anyway. The northern tribes of Israel were deported by the Assyrians and lost their culture.

Did the Jews also keep silent when Native Americans were killed in great numbers, or when Christian villages in Israel were ethnically cleansed, sent to refugee camps. Perhaps you forget American Christian soldiers and British allies liberated the concentration camps, nor are you grateful for Christian support of Israel when Israel was being attacked by Muslim Arab armies. Without a massive US airlift they would have failed.

It's an error to assume that the passage from Josephus is even authentic. Most believe it has been added to, or is entirely inauthentic. That said, "tribe" in this use is more akin to "sect" or similar, not tribe like the 12 tribes, that does not square at all with Josephus or critical interpretation of the passage, even assuming it is authentic.

The sect of the Christians was just one of many Jewish sects around at the time.

dqhall · Jul 20, 2020

tampasteve said:
It's an error to assume that the passage from Josephus is even authentic. Most believe it has been added to, or is entirely inauthentic. That said, "tribe" in this use is more akin to "sect" or similar, not tribe like the 12 tribes, that does not square at all with Josephus or critical interpretation of the passage, even assuming it is authentic.

The sect of the Christians was just one of many Jewish sects around at the time.

By the time of the 66-70 AD war, Christianity had spread to Gentile communities in Europe. Josephus wrote his books after the Jewish rebellion.

I would not assume Josephus did not write his book, only that the enemies of Christianity seek to discredit Jesus and anyone who compliments him.

Modern Israel is not ethnically pure as there are Jews of different racial characteristics including Semitic, Caucasian and Ethiopian. Does that mean there are no longer twelve tribes, only various Jewish sects? There are Orthodox, Reformed and Secular Jews.

There are some Christian Jews, even though some Jews would argue Christianity is a blasphemy.

tampasteve · Jul 20, 2020

dqhall said:
By the time of the 66-70 AD war, Christianity had spread to Gentile communities in Europe. Josephus wrote his books after the Jewish rebellion.

I would not assume Josephus did not write his book, only that the enemies of Christianity seek to discredit Jesus and anyone who compliments him.

I do not assume that he did not write the book, only that parts may be added to it - such as this passage.

Modern Israel is not ethnically pure as there are Jews of different racial characteristics including Semitic, Caucasian and Ethiopian. Does that mean there are no longer twelve tribes, only various Jewish sects? There are Orthodox, Reformed and Secular Jews.

Tribes are not ethnicity, they really never were either. Only God knows the membership of Jews in what tribe. Some can trace their lineage to Levite or otherwise, but most cannot due to the records being destroyed and the mists of time.

Orthodox, Reform (not Reformed), Conservative, Secular, Humanist, and the others are merely different streams of Judaism, they are not tribes and do not seek to be tribes. They are often also a cultural identity with bloodline ties, but a Orthodox person can leave and become Reform if they choose to.

There are some Christian Jews, even though some Jews would argue Christianity is a blasphemy.

Yes, of course there are. There are also Buddhist Jews and Muslim Jews. Mainstream Judaism would label them apostates, but they are still Jewish. Once a Jew - always a Jew. A Jewish person can become a Christian, Messianic or otherwise, and they are still Jewish. The "Jewish" part can be lost if the Traditions and faith are not passed down, however.

It is not just bloodline, it is also active identity.

dqhall · Jul 20, 2020

tampasteve said:
I do not assume that he did not write the book, only that parts may be added to it - such as this passage.

Tribes are not ethnicity, they really never were either. Only God knows the membership of Jews in what tribe. Some can trace their lineage to Levite or otherwise, but most cannot due to the records being destroyed and the mists of time.

Orthodox, Reform (not Reformed), Conservative, Secular, Humanist, and the others are merely different streams of Judaism, they are not tribes and do not seek to be tribes. They are often also a cultural identity with bloodline ties, but a Orthodox person can leave and become Reform if they choose to.

Yes, of course there are. There are also Buddhist Jews and Muslim Jews. Mainstream Judaism would label them apostates, but they are still Jewish. Once a Jew - always a Jew. A Jewish person can become a Christian, Messianic or otherwise, and they are still Jewish. The "Jewish" part can be lost if the Traditions and faith are not passed down, however.

It is not just bloodline, it is also active identity.

A Jew living in a Golan settlement converted to Christianity. He and his wife were evicted from their Kibbutz. He left Israel and became a pastor in America.

Some churches are integrated. Some Christians adopted children of other races. They shared their interest in Christ in common. Some Christian missionaries went to the four corners of the earth to share the Gospel with people who did not look like them.

Many people might deny Christians are tribe, only admit they are a sect, yet there is a vast array of sects within Christianity. So it is in Israel. They do not say, I am of Gad, or I am of Asher, Zebulon, or Naphtali. They share their interest in the Torah, or the fact they are Israeli citizens.

TreWalker · Jul 20, 2020

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
I’m totally aware of that.
Christians do follow Torah (most important ones, like 10 Commandments)
What do you think happens when non-torah practicing Christians die?
I’ve always wondered this and you seem quite knowledgeable.

Yet, Christians do not follow the Torah as given to Israel, yes? Even though Christians hold to the Ten they usually spiritualize the rest, why? Because there are ordinances and commands within the Torah that only apply or can be reconciled to the house of Yisrael. So when this occurs, like the Shabbat, or circumcising our flesh, or building a Temple for sacrifices and offerings Christians can only hold to the spiritual meaning. But Jews are called by HaShem to occupy themselves in the work of Torah in this world because of it's connection to the world to come.

HaShem did not command Christians through Moses to occupy themselves in the work of the Torah. So I don't believe HaShem would apply the curses of the Torah upon Christians who did not occupy themselves with doing all the commandments of G-d as given through Moses. And that flyies in the face of HR theology.

Let me come at it from another direction. We will all be judged by our works, what we actually 'did' with what we heard. Your intent in which you acted in this world. For the Jew, we will be judged for how we reacted to the Torah. For the non-Jew, you will be judged for how you reacted to Israel being bound to the Torah. Did you mock her, did you ridicule and ignore the way G-d choose her, and so ignore the message through Israel to the nations and the good way to treat G-d and neighbor? Amazingly, as the Torah applies to the Jew, it has an effect on the nations. This was by design.

And though both of us will come up short on the scales, HaShem has made a way through to him, through Messiah. When we die our sins will be held against us by the adversary. Jew and non-Jew. But it's our faith in the one who offered to take our sins and carry them himself that will make the difference. When we believe that the King of Israel has the power to redeem our sins by removing them from us, by carrying them himself, and by keeping us united through his Spirit by which we become pure, we can enter the world to come. We are redeemed through the work of Messiah. Who occupied his life in the words of the Torah. Walked it out, lived it, became the embodiment of. A Living Torah.

I believe Moshiach took my sins, past, present, and future so that when I come to the end of my days and am placed before my maker I can be guaranteed that HaShem will passover my sins because of my faith in His work. His work on the cross, and his work within my heart all the days of my life. His blood is applied to the doorposts of my house and on my gates. So when the destroyer comes, by faith, I am not harmed.

And I believe it's the same for all Christians and Jews alike. Why? Our salvation comes through this faith not by observance to Torah commands. Nobody can keep all of Torah blamelessly. We put our faith in the Tzadik who carried our sins and took them away, so redeeming our souls to be united with HaShem forever.

The Torah speaks of him, embodies him, and represents his will and ways. But the Torah is not He. Yisrael speaks of him, embodies him, and represents his will and his ways. But Yisrael is not He. Messiah speaks of him, embodies him, and represents his will and his way. But Messiah is not He. There is One who can redeem and save us, and his message has been resounding since the beginning.

HaShem our G-d is forever merciful, long suffering and his love endures forever. His will is that none should perish but that all would come to HaShem, through his Son. Because who the
Son sets free is free indeed.

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney · Jul 20, 2020

TreWalker said:
Yet, Christians do not follow the Torah as given to Israel, yes? Even though Christians hold to the Ten they usually spiritualize the rest, why

Honestly, I think it all really draws down to Romans 14:14.

TreWalker said:
Let me come at it from another direction. We will all be judged by our works, what we actually 'did' with what we heard. Your intent in which you acted in this world. For the Jew, we will be judged for how we reacted to the Torah.

For the Jew, I think it’ll be how they reacted to Christ.
Can one go to Heaven if you don’t believe that He was The Messiah?

TreWalker said:
For the non-Jew, you will be judged for how you reacted to Israel being bound to the Torah. Did you mock her, did you ridicule and ignore the way G-d choose her, and so ignore the message through Israel to the nations and the good way to treat G-d and neighbor? Amazingly, as the Torah applies to the Jew, it has an effect on the nations. This was by design.

Where in Scripture does it say that? Im aware of Matthew 7:20-23: I think if it’s if we truly obeyed God, like not saying “I love Jesus!” And going to the bar the next day for the 10th drink.

TreWalker said:
We are redeemed through the work of Messiah.

Amen to that.

TreWalker said:
And I believe it's the same for all Christians and Jews alike.

The Torah speaks of him, embodies him, and represents his will and ways. But the Torah is not He,

HaShem our G-d is forever merciful, long suffering and his love endures forever. His will is that none should perish but that all would come to HaShem, through his Son. Because who the
Son sets free is free indeed.

Like I said before, I think it all comes down to Romans 14:14-15.

I am interested in Torah keeping, I guess I’ll see what happens.

dqhall · Jul 20, 2020

TreWalker said:
Yet, Christians do not follow the Torah as given to Israel, yes? Even though Christians hold to the Ten they usually spiritualize the rest, why? Because there are ordinances and commands within the Torah that only apply or can be reconciled to the house of Yisrael. So when this occurs, like the Shabbat, or circumcising our flesh, or building a Temple for sacrifices and offerings Christians can only hold to the spiritual meaning. But Jews are called by HaShem to occupy themselves in the work of Torah in this world because of it's connection to the world to come.

HaShem did not command Christians through Moses to occupy themselves in the work of the Torah. So I don't believe HaShem would apply the curses of the Torah upon Christians who did not occupy themselves with doing all the commandments of G-d as given through Moses. And that flyies in the face of HR theology.

Let me come at it from another direction. We will all be judged by our works, what we actually 'did' with what we heard. Your intent in which you acted in this world. For the Jew, we will be judged for how we reacted to the Torah. For the non-Jew, you will be judged for how you reacted to Israel being bound to the Torah. Did you mock her, did you ridicule and ignore the way G-d choose her, and so ignore the message through Israel to the nations and the good way to treat G-d and neighbor? Amazingly, as the Torah applies to the Jew, it has an effect on the nations. This was by design.

And though both of us will come up short on the scales, HaShem has made a way through to him, through Messiah. When we die our sins will be held against us by the adversary. Jew and non-Jew. But it's our faith in the one who offered to take our sins and carry them himself that will make the difference. When we believe that the King of Israel has the power to redeem our sins by removing them from us, by carrying them himself, and by keeping us united through his Spirit by which we become pure, we can enter the world to come. We are redeemed through the work of Messiah. Who occupied his life in the words of the Torah. Walked it out, lived it, became the embodiment of. A Living Torah.

I believe Moshiach took my sins, past, present, and future so that when I come to the end of my days and am placed before my maker I can be guaranteed that HaShem will passover my sins because of my faith in His work. His work on the cross, and his work within my heart all the days of my life. His blood is applied to the doorposts of my house and on my gates. So when the destroyer comes, by faith, I am not harmed.

And I believe it's the same for all Christians and Jews alike. Why? Our salvation comes through this faith not by observance to Torah commands. Nobody can keep all of Torah blamelessly. We put our faith in the Tzadik who carried our sins and took them away, so redeeming our souls to be united with HaShem forever.

The Torah speaks of him, embodies him, and represents his will and ways. But the Torah is not He. Yisrael speaks of him, embodies him, and represents his will and his ways. But Yisrael is not He. Messiah speaks of him, embodies him, and represents his will and his way. But Messiah is not He. There is One who can redeem and save us, and his message has been resounding since the beginning.

HaShem our G-d is forever merciful, long suffering and his love endures forever. His will is that none should perish but that all would come to HaShem, through his Son. Because who the
Son sets free is free indeed.

The Seventh Day Adventists rested on the seventh day. Were you ignorant of this? In Israel the airport is open on Shabbaht. Gas stations are open on Shabbaht. The hospitals are open on the seventh day. The military is on alert on Shabbaht. Once they were attacked on Yom Kippur.

You should not assume God does not help Christians. They do not have to execute people for working on Shabbaht like a Moses commanded. There is a blessing and a curse in the Torah.

TreWalker · Jul 20, 2020

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
Christians do follow Torah (most important ones, like 10 Commandments)

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
Honestly, I think it all really draws down to Romans 14:14.

14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Yeshua, that nothing is unholy in itself; but it is unholy for the one who considers it unholy.

How do you relate this to Christians following Torah? Can you paint the picture of how Christians follow Torah? And how this verse relates to it? Thank you

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
For the Jew, I think it’ll be how they reacted to Christ.
Can one go to Heaven if you don’t believe that He was The Messiah?

Go to heaven? My belief is that Heaven comes down to earth and G-d dwells among his people. It's a unity of earth and heaven. Much different than the Christian understanding of seeing us all go to a place off this planet.

Heaven as I understand it is out of time and space. And our existence is within time and space. HaShem's promise and prophecies require an earthly resurrection, not just a spiritual one.

Isaiah 11:1-16
Isaiah 43:1-7
Isaiah 61:4-9
Isaiah 65:8-10
Ezekiel 11:14-20
Ezekiel 37:21-28

Please understand that when I said it's how they react to Israel and our Torah. I understand the Messiah to be throughout the Torah. He taught it to it's fullness. Showing one how to truly walk it out in love. How it applied to the Jew, and how it was to be shown and offered to the nations. So when one reacts negatively to Israel or the Torah they are equally reacting negatively to the representative, redeemer, savior and King of Israel. As I can't help but recognize. If you reject the Kings people how can you believe you would be accepted by that King? If you claim all of the children's promises while heaping the curses on them, how can such a King be called righteous? And how can such a kingdom stand for eternity? It can not. It will eat it's own tail.

TreWalker · Jul 20, 2020

For the Jew, we will be judged for how we reacted to the Torah. For the non-Jew, you will be judged for how you reacted to Israel being bound to the Torah. Did you mock her, did you ridicule and ignore the way G-d choose her, and so ignore the message through Israel to the nations and the good way to treat G-d and neighbor? Amazingly, as the Torah applies to the Jew, it has an effect on the nations. This was by design.

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
Where in Scripture does it say that? Im aware of Matthew 7:20-23: I think if it’s if we truly obeyed God, like not saying “I love Jesus!” And going to the bar the next day for the 10th drink.

And this ethic is born through the Torah. It's the heart of G-d. We walk the ladder (Jacob's) all our lives. It's not till the end that G-d can assess the whole journey. When I say react I mean; how we believed the Torah. How it effected our path. How we lived it out. Did we see Moshiach within and throughout it and allow him to place on our hearts the Spirit of G-d to lead us in all his ways? Something that was promised to Abraham and his descendants (Genesis 17), and starting long before Acts 2.

Genesis 17
17 When Abram was 99 years old, Adonai appeared to Abram, and He said to him, “I am El Shaddai. Continually walk before Me and you will be blameless. 2 My heart’s desire is to make My covenant between Me and you, and then I will multiply you exceedingly much.”

Exodus 4
8 Then He said, “If they do not believe you, or listen to the voice of the first sign, they will believe the message of the latter sign. 9 But if they do not believe even these two signs nor listen to your voice, you are to take the water of the river and pour it on the dry land. The water which you take out of the river will become blood on the ground.”

John 5:46
For if you were believing Moses, you would believe Me—because he wrote about Me.

HaShem grace triumphs over his judgement. I am very thankful that when the scales are measured my deficiency will not matter. And I am very thankful that every breath I have is another moment to submit to HaShem's Torah as it can, through Moshiach, overpower the evil inclination within us.

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
Like I said before, I think it all comes down to Romans 12:21.

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

As a general rule, you bet! BTW, do you understand the context of the book of Romans? And why all the discussion about infighting?

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
I am interested in Torah keeping, I guess I’ll see what happens.

Baruch HaShem! Safe travels

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney · Jul 20, 2020

TreWalker said:
And this ethic is born through the Torah. It's the heart of G-d. We walk the ladder (Jacob's) all our lives. It's not till the end that G-d can assess the whole journey. When I say react I mean; how we believed the Torah. How it effected our path. How we lived it out. Did we see Moshiach within and throughout it and allow him to place on our hearts the Spirit of G-d to lead us in all his ways? Something that was promised to Abraham and his descendants (Genesis 17), and starting long before Acts 2.

Genesis 17
17 When Abram was 99 years old, Adonai appeared to Abram, and He said to him, “I am El Shaddai. Continually walk before Me and you will be blameless. 2 My heart’s desire is to make My covenant between Me and you, and then I will multiply you exceedingly much.”

Exodus 4
8 Then He said, “If they do not believe you, or listen to the voice of the first sign, they will believe the message of the latter sign. 9 But if they do not believe even these two signs nor listen to your voice, you are to take the water of the river and pour it on the dry land. The water which you take out of the river will become blood on the ground.”

John 5:46
For if you were believing Moses, you would believe Me—because he wrote about Me.

HaShem grace triumphs over his judgement. I am very thankful that when the scales are measured my deficiency will not matter. And I am very thankful that every breath I have is another moment to submit to HaShem's Torah as it can, through Moshiach, overpower the evil inclination within us.

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

As a general rule, you bet! BTW, do you understand the context of the book of Romans? And why all the discussion about infighting?

Baruch HaShem! Safe travels

I accidentally put the overcome evil with good, because I was reading it and I put it. Whoops!

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney · Jul 20, 2020

TreWalker said:
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Yeshua, that nothing is unholy in itself; but it is unholy for the one who considers it unholy.

How do you relate this to Christians following Torah? Can you paint the picture of how Christians follow Torah? And how this verse relates to it? Thank you

Those who desire not to practice or to practice the ceremonial part of the law- as I’ve mentioned before, eating pork, mixed fabrics, etc..
Not the Torah all in all. (I don’t think God would desire idolatry all of a sudden.)

TreWalker said:
Go to heaven? My belief is that Heaven comes down to earth and G-d dwells among his people. It's a unity of earth and heaven. Much different than the Christian understanding of seeing us all go to a place off this planet.

Heaven as I understand it is out of time and space. And our existence is within time and space. HaShem's promise and prophecies require an earthly resurrection, not just a spiritual one.

Isaiah 11:1-16
Isaiah 43:1-7
Isaiah 61:4-9
Isaiah 65:8-10
Ezekiel 11:14-20
Ezekiel 37:21-28

TreWalker said:
Please understand that when I said it's how they react to Israel and our Torah. I understand the Messiah to be throughout the Torah. He taught it to it's fullness. Showing one how to truly walk it out in love. How it applied to the Jew, and how it was to be shown and offered to the nations. So when one reacts negatively to Israel or the Torah they are equally reacting negatively to the representative, redeemer, savior and King of Israel. As I can't help but recognize. If you reject the Kings people how can you believe you would be accepted by that King? If you claim all of the children's promises while heaping the curses on them, how can such a King be called righteous? And how can such a kingdom stand for eternity? It can not. It will eat it's own tail.

do you believe the Jewish will go to Heaven?
I agree, Christ is for sure in the Torah, but if they reject the rest His teachings, are they truly His people?
Matthew 8:10
“Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.”
I agree Israel is special, holding a beautiful history filled with God’s instructions, and a story of redemption within the nation.
What would God think of Israel today, those who continue to reject the Messiah?
And, are they even still His people (not all, but a lot in current day Israel) if they reject Messiah’s teachings in the NT?
I’ve talked with Jews who completely hated the idea of our Lord and Messiah.
I don’t think loving Israel is too necessary (if that makes sense) but of course not to despise. Like I’ve said, I have a great respect for Israel and there people.

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney · Jul 20, 2020

P.S. I hope I’ve said nothing offensive- I’m trying to educate myself of MJ. Thank you for your answers

chunkofcoal · Jul 21, 2020

TreWalker said:
If Israel is prevented from being restored, the salvation of the world will also be prevented. Likewise, if Israel is delayed from being restored, because of lies and misrepresentations, then the restoration of the world will also be delayed.

The redemption of the world is hinging on the redemption of the people of Israel. The enemy knows this and has been spreading lies about the Messiah's message since before he came. So he seeks to teach lies like the replacement theology that has permeated the Church since it's formation after the expulsion of Jews from Rome in 45ad.

Good point. Paul wrote about "to the Jew first, and also the gentile" -
Rom 2:6-10 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, (9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

visionary · Jul 21, 2020

HARK! said:
We've made peace here in this thread. It never went to PM. Later we had a friendly conversation in another thread.

I'll be on my way now. I didn't want to disrupt this thread any further.

Shalom to all.

I am glad. Since it was public, the public was involved and the results are important, so I am happy it all turned out well.

visionary · Jul 21, 2020

pinacled said:
Hope is a wonderful gift

It is a blessing indeed. Gives a peace that passes all understanding and an increased faith in our Heavenly Father's wisdom.

chunkofcoal · Aug 12, 2020

TreWalker said:
Let me come at it from another direction. We will all be judged by our works, what we actually 'did' with what we heard. Your intent in which you acted in this world. For the Jew, we will be judged for how we reacted to the Torah. For the non-Jew, you will be judged for how you reacted to Israel being bound to the Torah. Did you mock her, did you ridicule and ignore the way G-d choose her, and so ignore the message through Israel to the nations and the good way to treat G-d and neighbor? Amazingly, as the Torah applies to the Jew, it has an effect on the nations. This was by design.

TreWalker makes a good point.
That the nations were (are? will be?) judged by how they treated Israel is in the Bible. For example:

Eze 25:3 And say unto the Ammonites, Hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou saidst, Aha, against my sanctuary, when it was profaned; and against the land of Israel, when it was desolate; and against the house of Judah, when they went into captivity;

Eze 25:8 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because that Moab and Seir do say, Behold, the house of Judah is like unto all the heathen;

Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

Oba 1:9-14 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter. (10) For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever. (11) In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. (12) But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. (13) Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity; (14) Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

Those sections and more are worth a read and will certainly give one pause for thought.

TreWalker · Aug 17, 2020

chunkofcoal said:
TreWalker makes a good point.
That the nations were (are? will be?) judged by how they treated Israel is in the Bible. For example:

Eze 25:3 And say unto the Ammonites, Hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou saidst, Aha, against my sanctuary, when it was profaned; and against the land of Israel, when it was desolate; and against the house of Judah, when they went into captivity;

Eze 25:8 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because that Moab and Seir do say, Behold, the house of Judah is like unto all the heathen;

Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

Oba 1:9-14 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter. (10) For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever. (11) In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. (12) But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. (13) Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity; (14) Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

Those sections and more are worth a read and will certainly give one pause for thought.

By it’s very nature Christianity must reject Israel’s relationship with HaShem; this is the root and foundation of replacement theology and supersessionism. If Israel (the Jewish people) has a role and relationship with HaShem, then, Christianity is false. And Christian’s cannot accept this because if they do, then suddenly their relationship with HaShem as part of Israel becomes more important than their relationship with HaShem as an individual. And that is an anathema to Christian thought.

The Jewish people reject Yeshua out of love for His Father. Suggesting these people cannot sense the nearness of HaShem as Christians do is simply unfair and shortsighted; if they are excluded from the closeness of G-d, they are doubly lost. In most cases, their love for HaShem and for their fellow human often outshines both Messianic Jews and Christians.

TreWalker · Aug 17, 2020

The interpretation of Torah is given to Bnei Israel to decide how the Torah is to be applied within the community. When the Bas Kol in the midrash renders judgment, it is not that the rabbis have out-voted HaShem - it’s not the function of a bas kol to render halachic rulings.

Therefore, the Holy One (blessed is he) says the tannaim are correct. Torah is in their (our) mouth and in their (our) heart. (Deuteronomy 30:14) Therefore, anyone who claims the Ruach HaShem permits setting aside even the slightest command (rendering halachic judgment) is a liar and is working contrary to the word of HaShem. (Matthew 5:19)

The purpose of halacha is for Israel to follow HaShem’s commandments together, as a Nation, as HaShem commanded. The epitome of accomplishing this is Yeshua himself. There is no halacha without Messiah, halacha makes Israel Messiah-like, it is how Israel strives or should strive to be Messiah-like.

Halacha is what unifies us as a nation and keeps us from “following after our own eyes and own hearts.” In Judges 17:6 a time of evil is described, “every man did what was right in his own eyes.”

TreWalker · Aug 17, 2020

chunkofcoal said:
Good point. Paul wrote about "to the Jew first, and also the gentile" -
Rom 2:6-10 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, (9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Israel’s interpretation began with Moshe and the Judges he appointed, men of HaShem. The entire process of Israel’s interpreting of halacha has but one purpose, so that Israel may be like Messiah.

Yeshua and the Sages teach us to live life in touch with HaShem constantly, as David did. This is a major theme of Mas. Berachot. So, I could only reference the entire Tractate.

From a Judaic point of view, it makes no sense to withdraw from an ongoing relationship with HaShem simply to ask for guidance I ask for everyday, continually. The weekday Amidah contains a section called HaShavat Hamishpat. The Sages prayed this twice a day. It has varying translations, but one of the central concepts is that in judgement, may we return to the original characteristics f the judges. (Ex 18:21.) Being Fearers of HaShem they, as we should be, were always communing with HaShem.

Restore our judges as at first, and our counsellors as at the beginning, and remove from us agony and sorrow…Blessed are You, Lord, the King who loves righteousness and justice. (Daily Amidah Prayer)

Know Israel=Know Messiah/No Israel=No Messiah

Will Messiah restore Israel as a physical nation of people?

No, the Church has become spiritual Israel

Yes, it is happening as we speak

Yes, it will happen in the world to come after the resurrection

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