The Holy War

Johan Abrahams

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What is the point of debate, non-violent resistance? I tried to follow what you were saying and caught the part about not engaging in corporeal punishment. The rest I couldn't follow.

It is an example of speaking about what is wrong in the Ability of God. In South Africa corporal punishment from the Christians were just recently rejected by the ANC government. But corporal punishment was taught by the churches as "from God". While it actually was not from God. God rules in Wisdom and not fear that is created by inflicting bodily pain.

Proverbs 8
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:*n4
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
 
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Johan Abrahams

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From correct understanding of the prophecies in the bible and history.

When God Reveals it to us He also creates it in us as the Creator God. As our Father He creates the Experience of it.
 
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Lost4words

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From correct understanding of the prophecies in the bible and history.

Theres a big problem with that.

Who's understanding is the correct one?

End times experts are like grains of sand on a beach!

Revelation etc is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Theres a big problem with that.

Who's understanding is the correct one?

End times experts are like grains of sand on a beach!

Revelation etc is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible.

God is not the author of confusion, it can be understood, why else would he have John write it?

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
 
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Johan Abrahams

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Theres a big problem with that.

Who's understanding is the correct one?

End times experts are like grains of sand on a beach!

Revelation etc is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible.

When we search for the correct understanding we will have problems. When we ask our Father to Reveal to us we have none.

1 Cor. 2
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

The Truth about the End times is not an understanding but a Life. It is more of the Life of Jesus Revealed and Created in Us. And its manifestation is Power. If someone comes with a teaching and He is not living it then obviously it is not it. We are witnesses of the Truth. The Truth is Life created in Us that we are Living and witnessing about. It is not just teaching but rather teaching on the Life you are Living. Explaining what you are Living and doing.
 
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Johan Abrahams

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God is not the author of confusion, it can be understood, why else would he have John write it?

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I agree. All are saying that they are prophets of the Truth. But we know that many are liars. This does not mean that there is no prophet with the Truth. So it is all about discerning the correct one. Of course if you can not discern you will either accept a lie, and be disappointed because you wasted your time. Or you will do nothing and the end time will catch up with you.

With this I mean that some will Live in the Life of the End Time which is basically ruling while others will just enjoy the ruling of the Righteous and not be able to do it themselves. They will just be the Babies they were when they were born again. Sure they are saved and God's Children. But they are Babies that have not grown up in what they could have been. Kings and Judges of God.

Mat. 19
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
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MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from The Junk Drawer to Eschatology.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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keras

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there will be a War.
Actually there will be no war.....Ezekiel 7:14
The Lord will destroy His enemies before any shots are fired.

Prophecy is for Believers : 1 Corinthians 14:22b

The Bible has plenty of information on how the Lord’s plans have been fulfilled in the past and what we can expect in our future. Also, according to His plan, very few will truly understand the full scope and implications of future events. Daniel 12:10 Some reasons for this are:

1/ Those who may profess to be Christian, but in their hearts are not:

1 John 4:4-6 Believers in Christ, you belong in God’s family and you can discern false prophets because the God who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. The world listens to the teachings of worldly people, but we belong to God and whoever knows God pays heed to the truth, those who are not His people cannot comprehend the prophetic message.

Isaiah 29:13-14 The Lord says: Because this people worship Me with empty words and pay Me lip service, while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human precepts, learnt by rote; therefore I shall shock them and shock again and their wisdom and discernment will be lost. Matthew 7:21-23

2/ Belief in false teaching, leading to a fixed mindset of wrong ideas: Ezekiel 14:3-5

The prime example of a false teaching is the pre-tribulation rapture. This idea denies many Scriptures that say; all will be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:35. This leads to a careless attitude toward prophecy. If you believe you are good enough and sufficiently holy to be taken directly to heaven, then you will be judged for judging yourself. Humility and trust in the Lord’s saving grace, Isaiah 30:15, must be our attitude, not the pretentious belief of a removal from the earth to avoid any perceived difficulties. In John 17:15 Jesus asks for protection, not removal and in John 3:13 No one will go to heaven, only He who came from it.

2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past, there were false prophets among the people, just as now you will have false teachers. They will promote their theories and speculations, twisting Scripture to suit their fanciful notions. Many will follow their sheer fabrications and credulous people will make them rich and famous, but judgement waits for them: a long prepared destruction will fall upon their heads.

Jeremiah 23:16-17 The Lord says: Do not listen to your false prophets, who give you false hope and voice their own fancies, it is not the Lord’s Words they speak. They say: ‘prosperity will be yours’ and to all who follow their devious beliefs: ‘No harm will befall you’.

Isaiah 29:9-12 The Lord says: I will place My spirit of mis-understanding upon all those who are ‘drunk, but not with wine’ [that is: who allow themselves to be fooled by false teachings], so it becomes impossible for them to see the truth. Isaiah 8:16

3/ Preterism and non-literal interpretation:

To think that all prophecies have been fulfilled or they are just metaphors and allegories, is a serious error that leaves those who believe that way, without proper knowledge or understanding about the end times.

2 Peter 1:19 We confirm the message of the prophets, to which you will do well to study; it will enlighten your minds, like a lamp shining into a dark place.

4/ Denial or straight out refusal to try to comprehend the prophesies:

Ezekiel 33:31-33 My people will listen to the prophets, but they will not take any action. Fine Words, they will say but with insincerity, for their hearts are set on selfish gain. When disaster strikes, as it will, then they will know the truth of prophecy.

Isaiah 48:3-6 Long ago, I announced what will happen, but because of your stubbornness and your refusal to accept instruction, you think everything can be explained by chance or by natural occurrence. You read the Word, consider it well and admit the truth of it.

Hosea 9:7 The Day of punishment and vengeance comes and all Israel will know it. Their prophets are fools and their wise leaders are like madmen, because they are all deep in enmity with God and He will remember their guilt.

Revelation 22:7b…Happy is the person who takes to heart the Words of prophecy in this Book.
Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.
logostelos.info
 
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Johan Abrahams

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Actually there will be no war.....Ezekiel 7:14
The Lord will destroy His enemies before any shots are fired.
You gave a lot here. From the traditional understanding. I have another one here. We enter the "Holy War" when we are ready. We just need to grow up to that point where God can create the "weapons" of it in us and then we start. He has to change our attitude and fear to those of a Warrior without fear. But of course just for those that want to enter with God and not for those that still needs to grow up.


1 Peter 2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

You get those with the "Heart of the Warrior". Who wants to enter. Who are ready. Like Caleb.

Numbers 13
30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, isa land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in itare men of a great stature.*n7
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

They just need to be woken up.

Joel 3
9 ¶Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:*n3
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

So we have to come to the point where God make us "strong". Because we are actually "worms".

Isaiah 41
14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith theLord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.*n10
15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.*n11
16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the Lord, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

We have to see Jesus in another Revelation.

Isaiah 63

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.*n1
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

And we have to allow our Father to create the Ability to "War" in us. Because in the Word on the Son given to us we got that Ability too. But it is not for God's Children but for His Grown Ups. Ready to enter into another Characteristic of Christ created in us.

Rev. 19

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
 
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keras

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You gave a lot here. From the traditional understanding. I have another one here. We enter the "Holy War" when we are ready.
The Lord will destroy His enemies when He is ready, at the Appointed time.
We have nothing to do with it.
 
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Johan Abrahams

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The Lord will destroy His enemies when He is ready, at the Appointed time.
We have nothing to do with it.
Then God has changed. Because Israel was sent back for another 40 years into the desert when they were too scared to fight. David destroyed His enemies and Solomon did it and everyone else was called to stand up and fight. God never did it alone while we are just standing by and watching a "TV show". He wants us to enjoy the Fight with Him as our Ability and Power.

But first He is equipping the "worms" to become "mighty men". And some will enter and they will fight while those wanting to stay "worms" will of course stay "worms" and just look on.
 
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Timtofly

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Then God has changed. Because Israel was sent back for another 40 years into the desert when they were too scared to fight. David destroyed His enemies and Solomon did it and everyone else was called to stand up and fight. God never did it alone while we are just standing by and watching a "TV show". He wants us to enjoy the Fight with Him as our Ability and Power.

But first He is equipping the "worms" to become "mighty men". And some will enter and they will fight while those wanting to stay "worms" will of course stay "worms" and just look on.
God has not changed. The point is who is being used. The house of Jacob was always about physical battles. The church was always about spiritual battles.

The issue today is theology is trying to force the church into physical battles, thus they spiritualize Revelation. That is wrong. The physical battles in Revelation have nothing to do with the church, and remain literal. Stop putting the church into the tribulation, and Revelation makes literal sense.

The tribulation is about Jacob and the nations. It is physical and Revelation is in the correct chronological order and is happening this year, not spread out over the church age, because the church has nothing whatsoever to do with physical literal events in Revelation.

As for a holy war, yes physical battles have been prophecied. Israel has been a physical war ready nation where physical combat training is required of all citizens. Even though many deny that current Israel is not Israel, it is the only living Israel, so it is what it is. Will more people join from the ten lost tribes? I assume that marking 12,000 males from every single tribe, will be a very strong indicator by God, of who is who. Those 12,000 males from each tribe will know who their relatives are. Please understand, it will not have anything to do with the church.

The fight of the church (spiritual) will end at the 6th seal. That is it, no more church on physical earth. This fact will refute amil theology. It will refute post trib rapture. But it will only refute such doctrine and theology when it happens. If the church does not listen to the Holy Spirit now, it will not listen after the fact either. But only God knows one's heart. At that point belief will change, or some will show up to the wedding with filthy rags, and get thrown out when asked how they got in.

The tribulation is a harvest, where all humanity has to die. Death is the only way to be changed from Adam's punishment that changed the human condition from one of life to one of death. All must physically die, and after death will be judged. Some will be raised to everlasting life, some to everlasting Death. But this is not the church. This is the sheep and wheat of the harvest. Physical life will be restored. Only the church is restored to spiritual life.

There is a difference, and that is what John witnessed and recorded in Revelation. That is the truth prophecied by physical prophets of physical Jacob. God did include all the OT into the church, who trusted God. But the remaining sheep and wheat make up physical biological humans to populate in this world and the next one as well. Most theology gets everything all convoluted. Because it is only human opinion, and not from God. God's Word is inspired by God. Not doctrine, nor theology. Paul told the church to test the spiritual, because many false spiritual ideas will arise, not from God.
 
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keras

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Then God has changed. Because Israel was sent back for another 40 years into the desert when they were too scared to fight. David destroyed His enemies and Solomon did it and everyone else was called to stand up and fight. God never did it alone while we are just standing by and watching a "TV show". He wants us to enjoy the Fight with Him as our Ability and Power.

But first He is equipping the "worms" to become "mighty men". And some will enter and they will fight while those wanting to stay "worms" will of course stay "worms" and just look on.
Not really changed, but the Lord will use His creation, the sun this time, rather that His people.
A people who keep the faith- righteous Christians:

Isaiah 26:11 Lord; Your hand is lifted high, let the fire reserved for Your enemies consume them. The godless cannot see how You will protect Your people.

Isaiah 26:20-21 Go My people, enter your rooms and shut the doors after you. Withdraw for a little while, until the Lord’s wrath has passed. The Lord is coming from His dwelling place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their sins. Then the earth will show the blood shed on it and hide the slain no more.

Isaiah 25:9 On that Day, Your people will say: See, this is our God, we have waited for Him and He will deliver us, let us rejoice and exult in His deliverance.

Isaiah 25:1-3 God Almighty, You are my God, I shall praise You, for You have done wonderful things – long planned, certain and sure. You have turned cities into heaps of rubble, their houses swept away – never to be rebuilt. For this, many a cruel nation is in awe of You.

Isaiah 26:16-19 In our distress, Lord, we sought You out, chastened by the whisper of Your rebuke. As a woman with child cries out in her pains, so were we because of You, Lord. Our labor has been in vain, we achieved nothing for Your Land or people. But Your dead will live, those long dead who lay in the earth, will rise again, they will arise and shout for joy.

Isaiah 25:4-5 Truly, You have been a refuge to the poor and needy in their distress, their shelter from the tempest, shade from the heat. For the attack of the godless gets them nowhere and You silence the uproar of our enemies.

Isaiah 26:15 Lord, You have enlarged the nation and won honor for Yourself. You have extended all the frontiers of this country.

Isaiah 26:1-2 On that Day this song will be sung in Judah; We have a strong city – Open the gates, let a righteous nation enter, a people who kept the faith.
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged


The Lord’s hand of judgement is ready to strike, the fire reserved for Your enemies will consume them. Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1, Revelation 6:12-17

for the attack of the godless gets them nowhere, The fulfilment of Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Jeremiah 49:35-37

Whole cities are destroyed and those killed will lie unburied. Amos 1:1-15, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 9:22, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 17:1

But the Lord will be a refuge for His righteous people. Psalms 62:5-8, Zephaniah 2:3

..shade from the heat, they; withdraw for a little while,– take shelter from the fire reserved for His enemies, a huge Coronal Mass Ejection fireball, that will destroy them.
Isaiah 30:26-30, Proverbs 3:25-26, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7


Then: a righteous nation enters, Matthew 21:43, into all of the holy Land area, as promised to the Patriarchs, by descent or grafted in by faith. Galatians 3:36-29 They will live in the new country of Beulah in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 31:10-14, Isaiah 27:6, Ezekiel 28:24-26, Romans 9:24-26

They are all the faithful Christians from every race, nation and language, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9, who will fulfill their destiny to be a light to the nations and His witnesses to the world. Isaiah 43:10-12, John 15:27, Isaiah 66:19, Isaiah 49:8

Your dead will rise again This happens later, Jesus will bring the souls of the dead martyrs with Him at His Return. Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 20:4 and then, after the Millennium. all who have ever lived will stand before God in Judgement. Revelation 20:11-15
 
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keras

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The fight of the church (spiritual) will end at the 6th seal. That is it, no more church on physical earth.
This is speculative rubbish.
God's holy people, His believing Church; ARE on earth during all that must happen.
Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
 
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This is speculative rubbish.
God's holy people, His believing Church; ARE on earth during all that must happen.
Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
That is what the resurrection is for. People die. Being speculative is making up ways people are changed without dying. Sin demands death. Satan is the one who demands dead bodies.
 
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