The Two Witnesses Chart

Douggg said:

Since this comes up so much, I thought I would make a chart. Right click on the chart and select view image - to make it easier to see.



View attachment 281313

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There are two witnesses that attest to Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The Jew and the Gentile. Period.
Be blessed.

Douggg said:

That the two witnesses bodies lie dead in the street of Jerusalem, and people witness the two prophets (Revelation 11:10) come back to life, in Revelation 11:11, proves that they are individual men, prophets, not groups as in your idealist interpretation.

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Nope!

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

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Two Witnesses and Two Prophets are talking about the same group of believers who receive power to prophesy Gospel to the world. These two prophets "represent" ALL of the faithful church, not specifically two individuals or a class of individuals within the faithful church. For example, we are these prophets. All faithful Christians who bear faithful witness (two Witnesses) testifying of God's word in mourning.

Where people assemble is a place. Are the two witnesses killed within a person? Is this great city Jerusalem (that they lie dead in the streets of for three and a half days in Revelation 11) a person? It makes "absolutely" no sense whatsoever, but is typical of the rationalizing "AWAY" of very plain passages, in order not to accept the very plain teaching about the Church. It is quite obvious from the passage, that Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified, is the representation of the corporate congregation. The true witnesses of Christ are killed there within her streets. Since when does people have streets within them? And when the two witnesses are killed within this city, the city itself is absolutely dead. For all (not some but ALL) who refuse to worship the image of the beast, shall be killed! Like it or not, that makes the faithful Church dead! Now it is just rational exegesis and common sense that if the two witnesses are killed THERE, that is, all who would not worship the image of the beast, then that Church is spiritually dead! It's an abominable assembly with no true witness there anymore.

Revelation 11:9-10

• "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
• And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

They are rejoicing over a church that no longer witnesses the truth, not over a church that is still saying thus saith the Lord. The abomination stands here. As indeed for anyone who bothers to read the example scriptures knows, abominations have always raised its ugly head in the Lord's house and caused the Lord to bring that "house" to desolation. Even as He did with his Old Testament Israael as an example! You choose to whitewash this as insignificant, when it is indeed the very point!

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

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After symbolic three days and an half, after a period of silence of truthful testimony in the church, God send his "spirit of Life" upon His faithful people and start noticing. Notice what? Abominaiton of Desolation!

Matthew 24:15-16
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[16] Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

This is who God has sent His Spirit so that they will start "see" abomination of desolation standing right in their holy place. They are instructed to flee from that church to avoid her judgment. Why? Because their church has BECOME Babylon whom God judges. She is not physical city of Jerusalem. Not United States. Not Rome! No, Judgment begins at the HOUSE of God, remember?!

Only you need to make this judgment alone with God to see whether your church is faithful. You probably won't notice it because you are too busy looking for event in the Middle East, not aware that your church is under judgment. As for me and my house, I understand clearly what Word of God say about our days!

Douggg said:

The first step being to cast Satan and his angels down to earth from the second heaven.

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Why did Jesus speak the following words in the past tense during His earthly ministry?

Luk 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

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TribulationSigns said:

You are mistaken. The church has been here since Pentecost after anointed with Holy Spirit to preach the Truth. You assumed with a false doctrine where it says that two witnesses are two individuals who only appears on Earth after Church will be rapture into heaven. This is not what Bible says this. Go back to Scripture and study some more.

You are mistaken again. Christians are prophets of Truth, too! So we are Two Prophets who have tormented enemies with our truthful testimony about their sins. Read your Scripture and find out what Paul said about prophets in the New testament Congregation.

You are mistaken again. God is not talking about two individuals here. We, Christians, are the anointed ones because we are anointed or filled with the Holy Spirit to preach the Truth to the world. God has already defined two olive trees and two candlesticks as churches, according to Scripture. Not two MEN.



No, you need to listen to God's Word by compare Scripture with Scripture. I don't listen to you. I listen to Scripture. Can you quote Scripture that that supports your...ahem...two men theory.

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Ahem! Yes, Scripture. Paul is clear in 1 thes. 4 & 5 that HIS rapture and gathering will come just before wrath. While "they" get "sudden destruction" start of wrath, "we" get raptures and so escape the sudden destruction. And where does wrath begin in Revelation? At the 6th seal. This is in chapter 6. In comparison, the Two Witnesses only show up and begin prophesying in chapter 11, over 3 1/2 years later. So PAUL HIMSELF shows us the church will be in heaven when the Two Witnesses show up. Is there another scripture? Certainly: we need TWO (here it is again!) witnesses. John then saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN (Rev. 7) before the 70th week begins in chapter 8 (with the 7th seal.) Is there yet more proof? Certainly, let everything be established with two or THREE witnesses.

In 2 Thes. 2, Paul shows us that the church is taken out of the way (the departing [apostasia]) FIRST, and then, with the restrainer taken out of the way, the man of sin can be revealed - and then all will know THE DAY has started and they are in it. So again we see the gathering happens FIRST.

What we need then is not more scripture; what we need is to understand the scripture we have. It is IMPOSSIBLE your theory that the Two Witnesses is the church. The church will be in heaven, and God is NOT going to be sending them back to earth. In other words, you are in error here.

You are mistaken again. You are mistaken again. No, sorry, the mistakes here are all on your side of this discussion.

BABerean2 said:

Why did Jesus speak the following words in the past tense during His earthly ministry?

Luk 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

.

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I have explained this before. You did not get it then, and for sure you would not get it again.

TribulationSigns said:

Nope!



Two Witnesses and Two Prophets are talking about the same group of believers who receive power to prophesy Gospel to the world. These two prophets "represent" ALL of the faithful church, not specifically two individuals or a class of individuals within the faithful church. For example, we are these prophets. All faithful Christians who bear faithful witness (two Witnesses) testifying of God's word in mourning.

Where people assemble is a place. Are the two witnesses killed within a person? Is this great city Jerusalem (that they lie dead in the streets of for three and a half days in Revelation 11) a person? It makes "absolutely" no sense whatsoever, but is typical of the rationalizing "AWAY" of very plain passages, in order not to accept the very plain teaching about the Church. It is quite obvious from the passage, that Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified, is the representation of the corporate congregation. The true witnesses of Christ are killed there within her streets. Since when does people have streets within them? And when the two witnesses are killed within this city, the city itself is absolutely dead. For all (not some but ALL) who refuse to worship the image of the beast, shall be killed! Like it or not, that makes the faithful Church dead! Now it is just rational exegesis and common sense that if the two witnesses are killed THERE, that is, all who would not worship the image of the beast, then that Church is spiritually dead! It's an abominable assembly with no true witness there anymore.

Revelation 11:9-10

• "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
• And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

They are rejoicing over a church that no longer witnesses the truth, not over a church that is still saying thus saith the Lord. The abomination stands here. As indeed for anyone who bothers to read the example scriptures knows, abominations have always raised its ugly head in the Lord's house and caused the Lord to bring that "house" to desolation. Even as He did with his Old Testament Israael as an example! You choose to whitewash this as insignificant, when it is indeed the very point!



After symbolic three days and an half, after a period of silence of truthful testimony in the church, God send his "spirit of Life" upon His faithful people and start noticing. Notice what? Abominaiton of Desolation!

Matthew 24:15-16
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[16] Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

This is who God has sent His Spirit so that they will start "see" abomination of desolation standing right in their holy place. They are instructed to flee from that church to avoid her judgment. Why? Because their church has BECOME Babylon whom God judges. She is not physical city of Jerusalem. Not United States. Not Rome! No, Judgment begins at the HOUSE of God, remember?!

Only you need to make this judgment alone with God to see whether your church is faithful. You probably won't notice it because you are too busy looking for event in the Middle East, not aware that your church is under judgment. As for me and my house, I understand clearly what Word of God say about our days!

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So you are going to symbolize this passage too? WRONG! It makes perfect sense in its literal sense: when those in Judea SEE the man of sin enter the most holy place in the temple and declare that he (a man) is God, they are to flee. And we SEE that fleeing in chapter 12, verse 6.

And you are wrong yet again: "Mystery Babylon" is "that great city" and John defines his meaning as the city of Jerusalem. Why would anyone think something different when John comes right out and TELLS US "that great city?"

WHY would God call Jerusalem "mystery Babylon?" It is very simple: because the Beast and False prophet will make Jerusalem their headquarters and will deceive THE ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem. She, Jerusalem, will end up reigning over all the kings of the earth.

TribulationSigns said:

Have fun playing guess game of chess on which men to be qualified to fit your Two Witnesses theory. You are keeping making speculations without understand what God really talked about. He already defined who Two Witnesses are. Well, your doctrine has been checkmated by God's Word, that I testified.

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I know! I know! You are the only one here with understanding! Well, we have already proven that theory false! Perhaps you should take a breather and do some more study.

TribulationSigns said:

The beloved city is spiritual Jerusalem, the church. Not physical Jerusalem or USA. Get this right first! That is where the encampment of the saints. It is where the battle truly takes place. It is the fight against abomination standing in the holy place (church). Again, it all depends upon how we define God's word, either "by" God's word or like you by presumption in looking at physical nations, battles, famines and warfare.

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Jerusalem, the church? WOW! The church of today is a mostly GENTILE church. SEPARATED from Israle due to their unbelief. the 70th week is for THEM, not for the Gentile church of today. God is going to catch the church up, and take us to a place of safety away from his wrath, then will concentrate on Israel once again. His goal is to SHATTER the power of their IDF until they have no hope of survival - outside of a miracle from God.

The church of today will have NOTHING to do with this 7 year period of time. It is for THEM, not for US.

iamlamad said:

Jerusalem, the church? WOW! The church of today is a mostly GENTILE church. SEPARATED from Israle due to their unbelief. the 70th week is for THEM, not for the Gentile church of today. God is going to catch the church up, and take us to a place of safety away from his wrath, then will concentrate on Israel once again. His goal is to SHATTER the power of their IDF until they have no hope of survival - outside of a miracle from God.

The church of today will have NOTHING to do with this 7 year period of time. It is for THEM, not for US.

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Why is it you can't seem to tell the difference between Israel today and the Gentile church of today?

Maria Billingsley said:

There are two witnesses that attest to Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The Jew and the Gentile. Period.
Be blessed.

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Please don't tell us you think these are the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11!

iamlamad said:

Ahem! Yes, Scripture. Paul is clear in 1 thes. 4 & 5 that HIS rapture and gathering will come just before wrath. While "they" get "sudden destruction" start of wrath, "we" get raptures and so escape the sudden destruction. And where does wrath begin in Revelation? At the 6th seal. This is in chapter 6. In comparison, the Two Witnesses only show up and begin prophesying in chapter 11, over 3 1/2 years later. So PAUL HIMSELF shows us the church will be in heaven when the Two Witnesses show up. Is there another scripture? Certainly: we need TWO (here it is again!) witnesses. John then saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN (Rev. 7) before the 70th week begins in chapter 8 (with the 7th seal.) Is there yet more proof? Certainly, let everything be established with two or THREE witnesses.

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Blah blah blah. You are jumping over all over Scripture, misapplying verses against each other and build a doctrine on it. Epic Fail.

In 2 Thes. 2, Paul shows us that the church is taken out of the way (the departing [apostasia]) FIRST, and then, with the restrainer taken out of the way, the man of sin can be revealed - and then all will know THE DAY has started and they are in it. So again we see the gathering happens FIRST.

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Ahhh. I can see where you comes from. "Apostasia." It is not the "departure of the church from Earth to Heaven." It's literally an [apostasia], an apostasy or departure in the Church from the law (truth) of God's word by unfaithful (unlawful) man. This falling away speaks of a time when the Godly man will cease in the Church replaced by the sinful man. When man, led by the spirit of disobedience (the spirit of Satan), begins to forsake the Lord by transgressing His laws, this is called a falling away from God. It is when man refuses to be subject to the authority of God's actual law, becoming the man of lawlessness who is his own ruler in God's house. This falling away or apostasy is spoken of as the Great Tribulation period in other places. Because it is a time of the loosing of the spirit Satan (that had been restrained) that will trouble the saints. It is the time when the Beast rises out of the pit with all lying signs and wonders to deceive professing Christians. For example, in the imagery of the Revelations and the Dragon loosed and commanding his false prophets. Here we see the spirit of Satan as it rules by coming from the mouths of his false prophets.

Revelation 16:13-14

• "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
• For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

This is the time of apostasy or falling away that 2nd Thessalonians 2 prophesies must take place before Christ's second advent.

Again, the word apostasy [apostasia], as used in scripture, is by definition a "deserting or forsaking" of the truth by the church. You can't fall away or desert the truth if you have never been enlightened by it, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (Hebrews 6:4) of the Holy Ghost by being a part of the external Covenant congregation. Apostasy is when those in the church defect from the sound doctrines of Christ to unfaithful and self serving doctrines of men. So yes, the Apostasy is in the church today excuse-makers notwithstanding.

What we need then is not more scripture; what we need is to understand the scripture we have.

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Do you, really?

It is IMPOSSIBLE your theory that the Two Witnesses is the church.

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Appears that you have not been enlighten on this yet? Well, God was clear on who the Olive Trees and Candlesticks represent. Churches! Its in the Scripture. Not your imaginative of two men.

The church will be in heaven

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No. Not according to Scripture. You think so because of your erroneous interpretation of "Apostasia".

You are mistaken again. You are mistaken again. No, sorry, the mistakes here are all on your side of this discussion.

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Like I said, the Lord judges and I am comfortable with it!

iamlamad said:

So you are going to symbolize this passage too? WRONG! It makes perfect sense in its literal sense: when those in Judea SEE the man of sin enter the most holy place in the temple and declare that he (a man) is God, they are to flee. And we SEE that fleeing in chapter 12, verse 6.

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Sigh...does it really matter since you won't be here with your pre-tribulation rapture theory?

And you are wrong yet again: "Mystery Babylon" is "that great city" and John defines his meaning as the city of Jerusalem. Why would anyone think something different when John comes right out and TELLS US "that great city?"

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[patting on your back]

WHY would God call Jerusalem "mystery Babylon?" It is very simple: because the Beast and False prophet will make Jerusalem their headquarters and will deceive THE ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem. She, Jerusalem, will end up reigning over all the kings of the earth.

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Like I said, you got wrong Jerusalem so enjoy your fantasy of two men ruling from your Jerusalem while your church is under judgment.

Good night!

Douggg said:

it is future that Satan and His angels will be cast down to earth never to rise to the heights of heaven again.

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The scriptures below reveal that heaven is no longer the home of Satan and the other angels who sinned against God.


2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;


Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;


Rev 9:11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.


Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

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iamlamad said:

To begin, TWO WITNESSES - TWO MEN, without much doubt, Enoch and Elijah.

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Where does it say the two witnesses are "two men"? Where does it say (without much doubt) they are Enoch & Elijah? The two witnesses have to be without all doubt.

TribulationSigns said:

Blah blah blah. You are jumping over all over Scripture, misapplying verses against each other and build a doctrine on it. Epic Fail.



Ahhh. I can see where you comes from. "Apostasia." It is not the "departure of the church from Earth to Heaven." It's literally an [apostasia], an apostasy or departure in the Church from the law (truth) of God's word by unfaithful (unlawful) man. This falling away speaks of a time when the Godly man will cease in the Church replaced by the sinful man. When man, led by the spirit of disobedience (the spirit of Satan), begins to forsake the Lord by transgressing His laws, this is called a falling away from God. It is when man refuses to be subject to the authority of God's actual law, becoming the man of lawlessness who is his own ruler in God's house. This falling away or apostasy is spoken of as the Great Tribulation period in other places. Because it is a time of the loosing of the spirit Satan (that had been restrained) that will trouble the saints. It is the time when the Beast rises out of the pit with all lying signs and wonders to deceive professing Christians. For example, in the imagery of the Revelations and the Dragon loosed and commanding his false prophets. Here we see the spirit of Satan as it rules by coming from the mouths of his false prophets.

Revelation 16:13-14

• "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
• For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

This is the time of apostasy or falling away that 2nd Thessalonians 2 prophesies must take place before Christ's second advent.

Again, the word apostasy [apostasia], as used in scripture, is by definition a "deserting or forsaking" of the truth by the church. You can't fall away or desert the truth if you have never been enlightened by it, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (Hebrews 6:4) of the Holy Ghost by being a part of the external Covenant congregation. Apostasy is when those in the church defect from the sound doctrines of Christ to unfaithful and self serving doctrines of men. So yes, the Apostasy is in the church today excuse-makers notwithstanding.



Do you, really?



Appears that you have not been enlighten on this yet? Well, God was clear on who the Olive Trees and Candlesticks represent. Churches! Its in the Scripture. Not your imaginative of two men.



No. Not according to Scripture. You think so because of your erroneous interpretation of "Apostasia".



Like I said, the Lord judges and I am comfortable with it!

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misapplying verses The miss-applying was all on your side. You really should study the rapture until you know WHEN.

You are mistaken about 2 thes 2. But let's start there with a question:
In verse 3b, is the man of sin revealed (in Paul's argument) or is he not revealed?

eleos1954 said:

Where does it say the two witnesses are "two men"? Where does it say (without much doubt) they are Enoch & Elijah? The two witnesses have to be without all doubt.

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No, John did not give us names. So we can only guess. It really does not matter WHO it will be. I only chose those two because they are the only two men we know of that never died.

TribulationSigns said:

Revelation 16:13-14

• "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
• For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

This is the time of apostasy or falling away that 2nd Thessalonians 2 prophesies must take place before Christ's second advent.

Again, the word apostasy [apostasia], as used in scripture, is by definition a "deserting or forsaking" of the truth by the church. You can't fall away or desert the truth if you have never been enlightened by it, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (Hebrews 6:4) of the Holy Ghost by being a part of the external Covenant congregation. Apostasy is when those in the church defect from the sound doctrines of Christ to unfaithful and self serving doctrines of men. So yes, the Apostasy is in the church today excuse-makers notwithstanding.

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Since you missed the real intent of Paul in 2 thes. 2, you have missed it here too. There is no, and will be no "falling away." The church has grown since its beginning and will continue to grow. When some fall away, more come. So you miss it here. But I will wait and see how you answer the question: is the man of sin revealed or is he not, in verse 3b.

his is the time of apostasy or falling away that 2nd Thessalonians 2 prophesies must take place before Christ's second advent.
No, miss it in one point and then all the rest will be in error. There will be no great falling away from faith. Anyway, that word, "Apostasia" has no information as to what was departed from what?

Make no mistake, Jesus is coming the second time FOR His saints, but we can only determin the timing by Paul's own writing. Another interesting question on 2 thes. 2: why did Paul write, "and now you know...." Do YOU KNOW who or what is the restraining force or power?

TribulationSigns said:

No. Not according to Scripture. You think so because of your erroneous interpretation of "Apostasia".

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Not JUST 2 Thes. Paul is clear in his first letter also: the rapture will come JUST before wrath. Find the start of wrath in Revelation and you will find the timing of the rapture. Do you really KNOW where wrath begins in Revelation?