The Two Witnesses Chart

TribulationSigns said:

I do not need praise from men.

Click to expand...

Sorry, a slip of the fingers. I meant AHEM!

I disagree with some of your points, as you disagree with his. You are both mistaken.

iamlamad said:

To begin, TWO WITNESSES - TWO MEN, without much doubt, Enoch and Elijah.

Click to expand...

Ahem... please check your Scripture again and listen carefully to what God said:

Revelation 11:3-4
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

It is a matter of receiving or not receiving God's clear definition of the Candlesticks, The Olive Trees and the Two Witnesses. Or do we select our own private definition as "men"? In Revelation, God has already very plainly told us that the secret symbolism of the Candlesticks is that they represented the churches (congregations). He wasn't ambiguous in the least, He flat out declared this is the revelation of the mystery (that hidden) of the Candlesticks. And of course, His word agrees perfectly with this church being His Witnesses upon whom He endowed the power to prophesy. Not two men. Not two churches. But CHURCHES or Elect of God. It is according to God, the mystery or hidden meaning of the Candlesticks of Revelation is revealed. It's not Moses, not Elijah, not Enoch, it's what God's word plainly said the Candlesticks represents. The Biblical rule is that Scripture interprets Scripture.

Matthew 5:14-16

• "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
• Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
• Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

I see no mystery, I see a Revelation. So there is nothing to "not get" and nothing to puzzle over. The candlesticks represents the Church. Period!

Moreover, It does say the two olive trees because it's saying these are the same as the two Witnesses. You're asking (I assume) why does it say two, when we say it speaks of the Church? God is illustrating this is the "TRUE" Church by designating them the two Witnesses. That we might search scripture, comparing the spiritual with the spiritual, to glean from it the law of two witnesses establishing truth. Number two = "Truth!" Witnesses of Truth! As opposed to false witnesses, who also take the name of Christ, but are offended by the truth (2). But who also inhabit the city. Two Witnesses to bring the truth of the gospel to the world. As the 70 were empowered by Christ and sent out two by two precisely for this signification.

Luke 10:1-3

• "After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
• Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
• Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves."

The model of Two Witnesses is well known in scripture and always designates those with the truth. By the mouth of Two witnesses shall the truth be established is an age old Biblical principle! And to make sure we understand these represent His Church, He further enlightens us by also designating them as the Candlestick (Revelation 1:20) and Olive tree (Romans 11:17). The mystery is revealed, the Candlesticks, which are the Witnesses, are the Church! Not two men! And the Olive Tree also is designated as such in Romans 11 as the Gentiles are grafted into the Covenant tree. So there really is no mystery, except when christians like you who won't allow the scriptures to interpret themselves. Revelation is the revealing "OF" the mystery to God's servants. It's not there to confuse, but to enlighten. Candlesticks, Olive Trees or fire from their mouths, they "must" all be interpreted by God, rather than your fanciful suppositions, assumptions and historical writings!

And do you realize what power did Two Witnesses (church) received? Didn't you read the Scripture?

Acts 1:9
[9] "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Two Witnesses are all CHRISTIANS who received power from God the moment they got born again to preach gospel to the world! Again number "two" signifies "Truth" so God is talking about His Witnesses of Truth. So in God's eyes, all Christians are His Two Witnesses - the witnesses with truth. God did not talk about two physical men here! Not Elijah, Not Enoch. But all people in Christ who received power with the Holy Ghost to preach gospel to the world for 1,260 symbolic days which is the whole New Testament period which is "now" is the days of salvation as long as they witness. They are the Two Witnesses! Now, do you even know who is this beast who will wage spiritual war against Two Witnesses that they will try to silence (kill) their truthful testimony? Think about it.

This is WHY you need to learn to search in Scripture to find God's definition for two witnesses, beast etc, just like I have show you the example of finding God's definition for His Two Witnesses. Selah! |

Let see if you and Douggg know how to figure it out about the beast and his heads. Take your time!

TribulationSigns said:

Ahem... please check your Scripture again and listen carefully to what God said:

Revelation 11:3-4
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

It is a matter of receiving or not receiving God's clear definition of the

Click to expand...

Right! So two olive trees "witness" and "prophecy." Every heard of symbolism?
TWO olive trees
TWO candlesticks
standing before the God of the earth

Where have Enoch and Elijah been for the past centuries? Of course in heaven.
WHERE will the church be during this time? Of course IN HEAVEN. So that rules out the church. Sorry, but "TWO" does not fit "the church."

"because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." Sorry, but "TWO" does not fit the church.

Zech 4:
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

It cannot be the church due to LOCATION: the church will be in heaven.

Are you listening carefully? They are two MEN.

TribulationSigns said:

It is a matter of receiving or not receiving God's clear definition of the Candlesticks, The Olive Trees and the Two Witnesses. !

Click to expand...

Maybe it is just a matter of UNDERSTANDING God's definitions.

TribulationSigns said:

Not two men. Not two churches. But CHURCHES or Elect of God. It is according to God, the mystery or hidden meaning of the Candlesticks of Revelation is revealed. It's not Moses, not Elijah, not Enoch, it's what God's word plainly said the Candlesticks represents. The Biblical rule is that Scripture interprets Scripture

Click to expand...

It says that those two men will be dead and their carcasses will lie on the ground in streets. It must be talkin about two human beings

TribulationSigns said:

Moreover, It does say the two olive trees because it's saying these are the same as the two Witnesses. You're asking (I assume) why does it say two, when we say it speaks of the Church? God is illustrating this is the "TRUE" Church by designating them the two Witnesses. That we might search scripture, comparing the spiritual with the spiritual, to glean from it the law of two witnesses establishing truth. Number two = "Truth!" Witnesses of Truth! As opposed to false witnesses, who also take the name of Christ, but are offended by the truth (2). But who also inhabit the city. Two Witnesses to bring the truth of the gospel to the world. As the 70 were empowered by Christ and sent out two by two precisely for this signification.

Luke 10:1-3

• "After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
• Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
• Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves."

The model of Two Witnesses is well known in scripture and always designates those with the truth. By the mouth of Two witnesses shall the truth be established is an age old Biblical principle! And to make sure we understand these represent His Church, He further enlightens us by also designating them as the Candlestick (Revelation 1:20) and Olive tree (Romans 11:17). The mystery is revealed, the Candlesticks, which are the Witnesses, are the Church! Not two men! And the Olive Tree also is designated as such in Romans 11 as the Gentiles are grafted into the Covenant tree. So there really is no mystery, except when christians like you who won't allow the scriptures to interpret themselves. Revelation is the revealing "OF" the mystery to God's servants. It's not there to confuse, but to enlighten. Candlesticks, Olive Trees or fire from their mouths, they "must" all be interpreted by God, rather than your fanciful suppositions, assumptions and historical writings!

Click to expand...

You are stretching scripture to try and prove an error. Just because we find "two" in two different verses does not mean they fit together. That may well end up being square pegs pounded into round holes. I see it all the time.

Next, the two witnesses CANNOT be the church: the church goes to heaven previous to this and STAYS in heaven during the 70th week. TWO man will fulfill what God needs. He is not going to have His church here during His wrath. The two witnesses will be OLD TESTAMENT saints. After all, the 70th week is for THEM, not the church. Or did you miss that point?

TribulationSigns said:

And do you realize what power did Two Witnesses (church) received? Didn't you read the Scripture?

Acts 1:9
[9] "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Click to expand...

OUT OF CONTEXT. We cannot pull scriptures out of their context to try and make some theory fit.

Yes, of course the Holy Spirit brings POWER when He comes. But again, the church is IN HEAVEN during the entire 70th week. the 70th week is for DANIEL's people - not the New Testament church. You are trying to mix onions with oranges, so to speak. In the Old, ONLY the prophet, priest and King received the Holy Spirit. In the NEW, the Holy Spirit is available to any born again believer. (It is too bad most never receive His mighty baptism.)

The 70th week is for DANIEL's people. Therefore it makes good sense that Old Testament people are chosen to be the Two Witnesses.

By the way, for any members of the "church" who are left behind at the pretrib rapture, and then any who turn to God after the rapture, there are only TWO (2) verses they can have faith in during those days of GT. Both verses state that they will be OVERCOME. (One in Daniel, one in Revelation.)

This is WHY you need to learn to search the Scriptures.

iamlamad said:

Where have Enoch and Elijah been for the past centuries? Of course in heaven.
WHERE will the church be during this time? Of course IN HEAVEN. So that rules out the church. Sorry, but "TWO" does not fit "the church."

Click to expand...

You are mistaken. The church has been here since Pentecost after anointed with Holy Spirit to preach the Truth. You assumed with a false doctrine where it says that two witnesses are two individuals who only appears on Earth after Church will be rapture into heaven. This is not what Bible says this. Go back to Scripture and study some more.

"because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." Sorry, but "TWO" does not fit the church.

Click to expand...

You are mistaken again. Christians are prophets of Truth, too! So we are Two Prophets who have tormented enemies with our truthful testimony about their sins. Read your Scripture and find out what Paul said about prophets in the New testament Congregation.

Zech 4:
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

It cannot be the church due to LOCATION: the church will be in heaven.

Click to expand...

Are you listening carefully? They are two MEN.

Click to expand...

You are mistaken again. God is not talking about two individuals here. We, Christians, are the anointed ones because we are anointed or filled with the Holy Spirit to preach the Truth to the world. God has already defined two olive trees and two candlesticks as churches, according to Scripture. Not two MEN.

Are you listening carefully? They are two MEN.

Click to expand...

No, you need to listen to God's Word by compare Scripture with Scripture. I don't listen to you. I listen to Scripture. Can you quote Scripture that that supports your...ahem...two men theory.

iamlamad said:

OUT OF CONTEXT. We cannot pull scriptures out of their context to try and make some theory fit.

Click to expand...

Context? What are you talking about. It is about Pentecost where God's Witnesses received their power to preach gospel!

Yes, of course the Holy Spirit brings POWER when He comes.

Click to expand...

And He did at Pentcost and church was still here!

But again, the church is IN HEAVEN during the entire 70th week.

Click to expand...

Aha! That is you have been taught with pre-tribulation/millennial doctrine. And you are wrong. Christ (not Antichrist) has confirmed a covenant with his church for one week, so obviously she is going to be here on Earth until the consummation. Not your pre-tribulation indoctrination about Antichrist and national Israel with church gone into heaven.

the 70th week is for DANIEL's people

Click to expand...

I have explained with Scripture before on Daniel's people and holy city. You have been proved wrong.

- not the New Testament church.

Click to expand...

The New Testament Church is only part of Daniel's people. Daniel people makes up of Jews and Christians from old and new testament. Remember that!

You are trying to mix onions with oranges, so to speak

Click to expand...

Mix onions with oranges? Huh, may you should check up with that terms.

. In the Old, ONLY the prophet, priest and King received the Holy Spirit. In the NEW, the Holy Spirit is available to any born again believer. (It is too bad most never receive His mighty baptism.)

Click to expand...

Old Testament believers were regenerated by the Spirit, because all believers must be regenerated to overcome their natural hostility toward God and be able to please Him (Romans 8:7-9). The Bible teaches all humans are either born “in the flesh” or born “in the Spirit.” In this sense, Old Testament saints looked forward to the coming of their Redeemer Messiah, and by faith were regenerated by God’s Spirit (Romans 4:1-5).

Before the Cross, when Nicodemus seemed confused after Jesus said new birth by the Spirit was necessary for salvation, Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?” (John 3:10) Jesus seemed to say Nicodemus, a religious teacher in Israel, should have understood the Spirit’s role in the “new birth” even in Old Testament times.

The 70th week is for DANIEL's people. Therefore it makes good sense that Old Testament people are chosen to be the Two Witnesses.

Click to expand...

Oh, show me the Scripture that says the Old Testament people are two Witnesses.

By the way, for any members of the "church" who are left behind at the pretrib rapture, and then any who turn to God after the rapture, there are only TWO (2) verses they can have faith in during those days of GT. Both verses state that they will be OVERCOME. (One in Daniel, one in Revelation.)

Click to expand...

Like I said, more pre-tribulation rapture nonsense. You just spew it out of your mouth without Scripture support.

This is WHY you need to learn to search the Scriptures.

Click to expand...

Actually, its YOU who need to learn because you have not even offered Scripture support!

friend of said:

It says that those two men will be dead and their carcasses will lie on the ground in streets. It must be talkin about two human beings

Click to expand...

Revelation 11:7-8
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

God did not say "two men" here. The Two Witnesses, as God defined them, are His New Testament believers who received power at Pentecost to preach Gospel to the world until the building of God's congregation, the church, is completed. After this, God will then loosen beast out of bottomless pit. The beast is a BODY of false prophets and christs, the men with spirit of antichrist, who will wage spiritual war against believers within the church (great city) with lying signs and wonders (false gospel and doctrines, entertainment, prosperity gospel, tolerate of homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, woman in position, etc.) to the point that the truthful testimony has ceased. The professed Christians will rejoice that they are no longer tormented by truthful testimony so they can do whatever they want in the congregation that supposed to represents God's congregation. This is how God's congregation has become a harlot because she has spiritually become as sodom (abominations) and Egypt (bondage). She is Babylon the Great.

But many of you do not see this way because you have been brainwashed by pre-tribulation doctrine being deceived thinking everything will happen over there in the Middle East with Antichrist, two men, gun and missiles, mark of the beast literal statues upon temple mount, Gog and Magog war with Russians, etc. You got wrong Israel. Wrong two Witnesses.

Your view is that the 2 witnesses are the church? Rev 11:7 says Satan will kill the church then, according to your view...

friend of said:

Your view is that the 2 witnesses are the church? Rev 11:7 says Satan will kill the church then, according to your view...

Click to expand...

Two Witnesses are Elect of the congregation (True Church). Satan works through men, the false prophets and christs, men with spirit of antichrist. For example, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Joseph Prince, etc. God is not talking about physical killing here. Rather it is their word that overcome the truthful testimony because they do not love the truth. That is why God is using these false prophets and christs as a tool of judgment upon UNFAITHFUL congregation. Revelation 11 has NOTHING to do with national Israel as you thought! You are looking at wrong place! You need a spiritual eyes to see it.

Read the whole chapter of 2nd Thess 2 yourself and see how God used false prophets to deceive professed Christians WITHIN His congregation where they will believe a LIE. That's why Christ warned that when "YOU" see the abomination of desolation standing in the "holy place", flee. The Church is new Testament congregation representing God's kingdom so she is a holy place on this side of the cross, the home of Two Witnesses (christians).

Douggg said:

I would not label it "revival of the Roman Empire" but end time version of the Roman Empire, mainly because sometimes people claim that the mortally wounded and comes back to life head is referring to the Roman Empire - but that is not the case, the mortally wounded and come back to life head is referring to king 7, a person. But, that aside, yes that is the general thinking.

The little horn person will be king 7 of the 7 related kings of the Roman Empire in Revelation 17:10. Then after he is killed and brought back to life as the beast, he will become king 8.

"dictator" because the ten kings hand their kingdom over to the beast.

Click to expand...

What is the wicked "great city" in Revelation 11:8?


Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
(Is earthly Babylon built on seven hills?)


Which city is our future home?

Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

.

Thanks OP.. great work.

When Christ shows up to Saul.. not Paul He said.. "why are you persecuting me?" Paul never once touched Christ. So how this man treated followers of Christ.. he was in fact do the same to Yeshua/Jesus.

TS.. you made some statements you still have not backed up. Some statements you made I have never heard in 59 years. Not worth it to even debate for you make fun of others that simply disagree with you 'because you have been brainwashed". You have no fear no respect for the one you are talking to "This is how God's congregation has become a harlot". You said that.. about children that belong to a GOD! If its not from the start done in love.. its all in vain. Out of the heart the mouth speaks..

Blade said:

TS.. you made some statements you still have not backed up.

Click to expand...

Example? Proof?

Some statements you made I have never heard in 59 years.

Click to expand...

Like what?

You said that.. about children that belong to a GOD!

Click to expand...

It seems that you do not understand how God's congregation or covenant Church works. The congregation makes up of two groups of people. There are Elect whom God chosen and there are professed Christian who are God's children, externally or corporately. The Elect and the Professed Christians (unsaved). Elect is a small remnant of a whole! Do you honestly think that everyone who attends a church are all automatically saved? Think again:

Matthew 22:14
[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

So yes, God will judge his house ruled by external children just like He did with the Old testament congregation as an example! I suggest that you learn more about covenant relationship with your Scripture. 59 years, you say? Humm!

If its not from the start done in love.. its all in vain. Out of the heart the mouth speaks..

Click to expand...

Galatians 4:16
[16] I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

The Lord judges our testimonies and I am comfortable with that.

Douggg said:

You mean where the revealed man of sin will be sitting in the temple, making it so?

Jerusalem is where the two bodies will lie dead for 3 1/2 days.

Click to expand...

Wrong. The Great City is the New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church, which has represented God's Kingdom on Earth since the Cross. Not physical city of Jerusalem! Sorry!

Babylon the Great though is not Jerusalem.

Click to expand...

Not physical city of Jerusalem? Finally you got it right.

What is the name of Satan and his angels' Kingdom ? What great city should it be be called, if our future home, that great city is holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God? Cannot you not see the parallel comparison/contrast? Satan and his angels' kingdom of Babylon the Great in the second heaven.

Click to expand...

You do not make any sense here. And this is why she is called Mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. She will remain a mystery to you UNTIL God opens up your eyes and you see for yourself how a once faithful woman has fallen and apostasy now abounds the man of sin (not one man, but many false prophets and christs) ruling in His temple the church. A physical city of Jerusalem in the New Testament does not qualified!

Mystery Babylon the Great is Satan and his angels' Kingdom holding sway over the nations of the earth.

Click to expand...

Wrong. It is not Satan and his armies attacking the world. It is Satan and his armies of false prophets and christs attacking God's congregation all over the world. Indeed apostasy is Jerusalem compassed with armies. Not physically, but spiritually just as it was revealed in the time of Christ when He fulfilled prophesy of this. It all depends upon how we define God's word, either by God's Word or by hypothesis and supposition. The New Testament Jerusalem is the church. What armies would encamp against her and surround her but those soldiers spiritually of Satan, just as they did at Christ's first advent (Zechariah 9:8-9). There were no literal/physical battles in Jerusalem then, no literal armies then, and there are no literal/physical battles or armies against the Lord's house in the last days. It is spiritual warfare. e.g.:

Revelation 20:8-9

• "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
• And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

The beloved city is spiritual Jerusalem, the church. Not physical Jerusalem or USA. Get this right first! That is where the encampment of the saints. It is where the battle truly takes place. It is the fight against abomination standing in the holy place (church). Again, it all depends upon how we define God's word, either "by" God's word or like you by presumption in looking at physical nations, battles, famines and warfare.

Douggg said:

It is two men, individuals, not groups of people. I would think of the two, more likely Elijah, because of his more direct connection with Israel. And the other many think will be Moses. I am not adamant about either. I lean to one of the two witnesses being Elijah. Or it could be neither, but two end times individuals, who God prepares to be the two witnesses.

Click to expand...

Have fun playing guess game of chess on which men to be qualified to fit your Two Witnesses theory. You are keeping making speculations without understand what God really talked about. He already defined who Two Witnesses are. Well, your doctrine has been checkmated by God's Word, that I testified.