Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

Andrewn · Jul 19, 2020

I think you'll like the following interpretation:

BobRyan said:
Dan 9 -
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

I thought this translation was correct. But the word "place" is not in the original text. But we have been mislead by poor translation, my friend. The EHV translation is more accurate:

Dan 9:24 Seventy sevens are determined concerning your people and your holy city:

to end rebellion,
to finish sin,
and to atone for guilt,
to bring everlasting righteousness,
to seal up prophetic vision,
and to anoint a most holy one.

In the 4th century, St Athanasius also rendered the phrase "a Holy One of holies," which of course is a reference to Christ himself.

BobRyan said:
1. No text says that the 70th week of the 70 weeks is not the one after the 69th week or that it comes after 2020. Having to insert vast gaps of undefined time inside of Bible timelines is the sure sign of getting off track some place.

I agree with you. Prophets of Dispensationalism really came up with a very novel idea, the gap theory.

iamlamad · Jul 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
None of the church is currently dead. They are all under the alter in Paradise. They do not ever come back to the earth to live. This church is glorified at the 5th and 6th seals. If they rule or judge others is not the point. When they are glorified is.

The Resurrection of Revelation 20 is bodily and natural bodies, not glorified bodies. This is not for any soul from before the church was completed. They were never in the church, and may never be part of the church. We are never told if these are given glorified bodies. All we know is they will not be thrown into the lake of fire. Death has no power over them. It is never even stated they would rebel. It is their children for over 40 generations who will have the choice to rebel and join Satan at the end of the 1000 years.

The difference between a spiritual and body resurrection is that the body is physically raised, but such a body is not spiritual. It is still flesh and blood, biological. Saying any portion of the church is not spiritually changed at death, is against all Scripture. That is what the Atonement did. The Atonement abolished both physical and spiritual death. But only the church is going to have glorified bodies. What else is significant about putting on a robe of white? What is the robe of white that cannot happen until the Last Day of the Lord?

The only answer can be that the Lamb presents a complete bride, including the 144K, because they were sealed before the 7th seal. Yes there are some saved written in the Lamb's book of life, after the 7th seal. These sheep and wheat are killed up until the battle of Armageddon. The next day resurrection of Revelation 20 separates those who will live on earth for the next 1000 years, and those who are bound in Death for the next 1000 years. It is not the mechanics of what happens when; that we can only surmise. It is the who and when we know about. Only the 144K seem to come and go, whenever the Lamb comes and goes. The Lamb and 144K leave for the 3.5 years of Satan, and return at the battle of Armageddon. John says there is only one and first resurrection in Revelation 20. It is not spiritual but bodily. It is not the church, but those who live on the earth. If you only have living sinful humans to populate the earth, how does sin reign with Christ? Sin as the result of disobedience ended at the end of the 7th Trumpet. Meaning all died in sin. Only resurrected bodies, not spiritual, but bodily gives Christ the sheep and wheat to reign with Christ for 1000 years.

None of the church is currently dead. Oh, really? Where is Peter and Paul and Stephen? Where are all the others from that first generation church? Where are the 120 that were in the upper room? ANSWER: THEY ALL DIED. The wages of sin is DEATH: all people DIE. I am talking physical death. Of course born again people don't die spiritually, then entered eternal kife the moment they accepted Jesus as their savior.

They are all under the alter in Paradise. NO! WRONG! those under the altar are ONLY the martyrs. "when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" Get it? These are MARTYRS.

They do not ever come back to the earth to live. MYTH! As part of the body of Christ on earth, they will become judges just as all the body of Christ will become.

Luke 19:17
And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

This church is glorified at the 5th and 6th seals. This is MYTH unless you can prove it with scripture. WHERE is your scripture to prove this?

If they rule or judge others is not the point. When they are glorified is. Who said this? You? The church will received resurrection bodies at the rapture: and no other time.

The Resurrection of Revelation 20 is bodily and natural bodies, not glorified bodies. Back this up with scripture. The entire church believes that the "first resurrection" is to resurrection bodies. It seems only you disagree.
Who is included in this resurrection, called "the first...?" Jesus was the first one, called "the firstfruits." Did He get a glorified body? You know He did. The church will be the second group to take part in this "first" or most honorable resurrection. Will the church get glorified bodies? You know they will. In other words, this statement is MYTH just like your other statements are myth.

This is not for any soul from before the church was completed. Rev. 20 shows us TWO (count them: ONLY 2) resurrections. Therefore all humans MUST take part in one or the other. One is for the righteous - OF ALL TIIME. It is called "the first" or chief of all resurrections. All the righteous who have ever lived will take part in this first resurrection.

The next one, if it has any name, is the "second death" resurrection: it is for the damned.

Which one would YOU chose for YOUR resurrection?

All you write is myth. I give up.

iamlamad · Jul 19, 2020

Andrewn said:
I think you'll like the following interpretation:

I thought this translation was correct. But the word "place" is not in the original text. But we have been mislead by poor translation, my friend. The EHV translation is more accurate:

Dan 9:24 Seventy sevens are determined concerning your people and your holy city:

to end rebellion,
to finish sin,
and to atone for guilt,
to bring everlasting righteousness,
to seal up prophetic vision,
and to anoint a most holy one.

In the 4th century, St Athanasius also rendered the phrase "a Holy One of holies," which of course is a reference to Christ himself.

I agree with you. Prophets of Dispensationalism really came up with a very novel idea, the gap theory.

Go back and read it again: what happened in 70 AD is written INSIDE the gap. It is the way Daniel wrote it.

iamlamad · Jul 19, 2020

keras said:
But sin HASN'T ended!
Indisputably sin continues in this world, but there will be nearly 1000 years after Jesus does Return, that there will be no sin. Then Satan is released for a short while and he does 'seduce the nations', then God destroys them and Satan as well.

Your Amillennium beliefs lead you to a very confused and unscriptural viewof the soon to happen end times events.

I think they will have to see it to believe it. True faith believes and THEN sees.

iamlamad · Jul 19, 2020

BobRyan said:
1. No text says that the 70th week of the 70 weeks is not the one after the 69th week or that it comes after 2020.

Having to insert vast gaps of undefined time inside of Bible timelines is the sure sign of getting off track some place.

Sure the text says that. God inserts gaps. You should know this:

Isaiah 61:
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, [HERE IS A LONG GAP] and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Therefore, don't try to tell us God does not insert gaps. This passage has a gap, and so does Daniel 9. Did you just not notice that Daniel's 70th week is written AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD? "the people of the prince that shall come...."

iamlamad · Jul 19, 2020

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said: ↑
Dan 9 -
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

What logic is that?

If you don't stay inside the context given in Dan 9 and jump out to "sin ends at the second coming" then you miss the entire context for Dan 9 which is the coming of the Messiah -- his first coming.

All Bible timelines are contiguous. So if you know the start date and the length of the timeline you know the end point. period. there are no exceptions.

All Bible timelines are contiguous

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, (GAP) and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Timtofly · Jul 19, 2020

iamlamad said:
None of the church is currently dead. Oh, really? Where is Peter and Paul and Stephen? Where are all the others from that first generation church? Where are the 120 that were in the upper room? ANSWER: THEY ALL DIED. The wages of sin is DEATH: all people DIE. I am talking physical death. Of course born again people don't die spiritually, then entered eternal kife the moment they accepted Jesus as their savior.

Being alive in Christ is not being dead. 2 Corinthians 5

iamlamad said:
They are all under the alter in Paradise. NO! WRONG! those under the altar are ONLY the martyrs. "when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" Get it? These are MARTYRS.

Two thoughts, get them?

Slain for the Word of God!!

The Testimony they held!!

Some were slain. Some lived naturally with a testimony.

iamlamad said:
They do not ever come back to the earth to live. MYTH! As part of the body of Christ on earth, they will become judges just as all the body of Christ will become.

Luke 19:17
And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

They are in the temple of God. Revelation 7:9-17
9 After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands;
10 and they shouted,

“Victory to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”

11 All the angels stood around the throne, the elders and the four living beings; they fell face down before the throne and worshipped God, saying,

12 “Amen!

“Praise and glory, wisdom and thanks,
honor and power and strength
belong to our God forever and ever!

“Amen!”

13 One of the elders asked me, “These people dressed in white robes — who are they, and where are they from?”
14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.
15 That is why they are before God’s throne.
“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.
16 “They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them,
nor will any burning heat.
17 “For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will shepherd them, will lead them
to springs of living water,
and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

Ok, it says no sun will ever beat down on them. How does that work on the earth?

They do things that normal humans cannot. "Day and night they serve in His Temple."

iamlamad said:
This church is glorified at the 5th and 6th seals. This is MYTH unless you can prove it with scripture. WHERE is your scripture to prove this?

You have no answer for what a robe of white is? What is immortality? What does it mean to be fully restored as a son of God? What is a son of God? Who live in the New Jerusalem as bright lights without any need for the sun or any artificial light?

iamlamad said:
If they rule or judge others is not the point. When they are glorified is. Who said this? You? The church will received resurrection bodies at the rapture: and no other time.

At what point in time do you think the church is complete? It is before the Lamb's book of life is opened. It is opened so names can be removed!!

iamlamad said:
The Resurrection of Revelation 20 is bodily and natural bodies, not glorified bodies. Back this up with scripture. The entire church believes that the "first resurrection" is to resurrection bodies. It seems only you disagree.
Who is included in this resurrection, called "the first...?" Jesus was the first one, called "the firstfruits." Did He get a glorified body? You know He did. The church will be the second group to take part in this "first" or most honorable resurrection. Will the church get glorified bodies? You know they will. In other words, this statement is MYTH just like your other statements are myth.

Well now, you have a timeline, does it start at the cross or after the Tribulation is over?

Has Jesus waited 1990 years to have a glorified body?

iamlamad said:
This is not for any soul from before the church was completed. Rev. 20 shows us TWO (count them: ONLY 2) resurrections. Therefore all humans MUST take part in one or the other. One is for the righteous - OF ALL TIIME. It is called "the first" or chief of all resurrections. All the righteous who have ever lived will take part in this first resurrection.

The next one, if it has any name, is the "second death" resurrection: it is for the damned.

Which one would YOU chose for YOUR resurrection?

All you write is myth. I give up.

The Rapture is not a resurrection. No one is dead. A Rapture is for those who just happen to be alive at a certain point in time.

Satan has been in control of religion for a long time. It is not my fault the church is deceived. The church should never give up seeking God's true plan and will.

BobRyan · Jul 19, 2020

iamlamad said:
All Bible timelines are contiguous

agreed.

Otherwise we could take the 3 days and 3 nights that Christ was to be dead and insert unknown quantities of centuries between each day --

iamlamad said:
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Agreed. A great example of no timeline. No start date.. no length of time.

As all Bible scholars agree -- the term "Day of the LORD" is not a unit of time - for example no such thing as "490 days of the Lord". or "12 days of the Lord".

iamlamad said:
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, (GAP) and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

The term "day of the Lord" is not saying that "on tuesday this will happen for a day".. no start time. No timeline in "the year" for the "year of the Lord". This is the "year of covid" for America but does not give any start date or length of time.

All timelines in the Bible are contiguous just as we saw with the 3 days and 3 nights... just as we saw with the 70 years of Jeremiah referenced in Daniel 9... just as we saw with the 70 weeks of years also in Daniel 9.

BobRyan · Jul 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
Being alive in Christ is not being dead. 2 Corinthians 5

And in 1Thess 4 we have the term "dead in Christ".

BobRyan · Jul 19, 2020

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place." NASB. Dan 9:24

Andrewn said:
I think you'll like the following interpretation:
I thought this translation was correct. But the word "place" is not in the original text. But we have been mislead by poor translation, my friend. The EHV translation is more accurate:

The NASB has the word in italics.

Andrewn said:
Dan 9:24 Seventy sevens are determined concerning your people and your holy city:
to end rebellion,
to finish sin,
and to atone for guilt,
to bring everlasting righteousness,
to seal up prophetic vision,
and to anoint a most holy one.

I do like that translation! thanks for sharing that point.

keras · Jul 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
Ok, it says no sun will ever beat down on them. How does that work on the earth?

Revelation 7:15-17 is a prophecy about Eternity; after the Millennium.
Proved by Revelation 21:4....God will wipe away every tear and Death will be no more.

BobRyan said:
As all Bible scholars agree -- the term "Day of the LORD" is not a unit of time - for example no such thing as "490 days of the Lord". or "12 days of the Lord".

Wrong.
Many prophesies tell us that the great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will be just one 24 hour day. Isaiah 9:14, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:6, +
When it is know what the Lord will use on that Day, it is obvious that one day will be sufficient to do all that is prophesied. Otherwise the humankind would be wiped out.

BobRyan · Jul 19, 2020

keras said:
Revelation 7:15-17 is a prophecy about Eternity; after the Millennium.

Rev 7 is before the millennium of Rev 20.

Rev 7 is specifically about the sealing period of time that happens to the saints before the 7 last plagues of Rev 16.

Rev 7
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on
the earth
or on the sea
or on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Rev 15
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

once the saints are sealed - the harm comes to the Earth, the sea and rivers - in the 7 last plagues of Rev 16.

Rev 16

2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.

3 The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.

4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” 7 And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

Then comes the Rev 19 - second coming event... where we see "the first resurrection" Rev 20:5 - that starts the clock ticking for the Rev 20

iamlamad · Jul 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
Being alive in Christ is not being dead. 2 Corinthians 5

Two thoughts, get them?

Slain for the Word of God!!

The Testimony they held!!

Some were slain. Some lived naturally with a testimony.

They are in the temple of God. Revelation 7:9-17
9 After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands;
10 and they shouted,

“Victory to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”

11 All the angels stood around the throne, the elders and the four living beings; they fell face down before the throne and worshipped God, saying,

12 “Amen!

“Praise and glory, wisdom and thanks,
honor and power and strength
belong to our God forever and ever!

“Amen!”

13 One of the elders asked me, “These people dressed in white robes — who are they, and where are they from?”
14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.
15 That is why they are before God’s throne.
“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.
16 “They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them,
nor will any burning heat.
17 “For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will shepherd them, will lead them
to springs of living water,
and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

Ok, it says no sun will ever beat down on them. How does that work on the earth?

They do things that normal humans cannot. "Day and night they serve in His Temple."

You have no answer for what a robe of white is? What is immortality? What does it mean to be fully restored as a son of God? What is a son of God? Who live in the New Jerusalem as bright lights without any need for the sun or any artificial light?

At what point in time do you think the church is complete? It is before the Lamb's book of life is opened. It is opened so names can be removed!!

Well now, you have a timeline, does it start at the cross or after the Tribulation is over?

Has Jesus waited 1990 years to have a glorified body?

The Rapture is not a resurrection. No one is dead. A Rapture is for those who just happen to be alive at a certain point in time.

Satan has been in control of religion for a long time. It is not my fault the church is deceived. The church should never give up seeking God's true plan and will.

Two thoughts, get them? Slain for the Word of God!! The Testimony they held!! Wrong! English lesson:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain: [WHY were they slain?]
1. for the word of God,
2. for the testimony which they held:
ALL are slain, but some are slain for the word of God, others are slain for their testimony.

They [the slain under the altar] are in the temple of God. No. This large group too large to number is a DIFFERENT GROUP OF PEOPLE. They are not martyrs: they are not dead and only spirits of people slain. they are resurrected. It is just after Paul's rapture and these are the raptured saints.

BobRyan · Jul 19, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
As all Bible scholars agree -- the term "Day of the LORD" is not a unit of time - for example no such thing as "490 days of the Lord". or "12 days of the Lord".

keras said:
Wrong.

Actually that is true as it turns out.

keras said:
Many prophesies tell us that the great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will be just one 24 hour day

On the contrary -

2 Peter 3 combines both the 2nd coming and all the events at the millennium into the single term "the Day of the LORD". It is not a unit of time. So then no such thing as 12 "day of the Lord"s.

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed,...
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

The second coming of Christ plus the lake of fire event are all collapsed into "the day of the Lord"

iamlamad · Jul 19, 2020

Timtofly said:
14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.
15 That is why they are before God’s throne.
“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.
16 “They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them,
nor will any burning heat.
17 “For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will shepherd them, will lead them
to springs of living water,
and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

Agreed: Born again people seen in heaven will have washed their robes and made them white. On this we agree: these are born again saints. (If they were not born again, they could not be in heaven.)

Just think of it: perhaps 50 generations of believers all together at one time: perhaps a vew BILLION people. (it will take over 31 years to count to one billion counting 24 hours a day.) The raptured church will be BY FAR the largest group mentioned in Revelation.

keras · Jul 19, 2020

BobRyan said:
The second coming of Christ plus the lake of fire event are all collapsed into "the day of the Lord"

This rather silly idea is quite unscriptural and simply impossible.

iamlamad said:
Agreed: Born again people seen in heaven will have washed their robes and made them white. On this we agree: these are born again saints.

They are not in heaven. Nowhere does Rev 7, or anywhere else in the Bible, say the saints, that is: the Christian Church will go to live in heaven.

That fanciful idea contradicts God's Plan to have His faithful people in His holy Land, being the ones He always wanted there, but has never yet had. Ezekiel 39:25-29, all of the faithful Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16

BobRyan · Jul 19, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
As all Bible scholars agree -- the term "Day of the LORD" is not a unit of time - for example no such thing as "490 days of the Lord". or "12 days of the Lord".

keras said:
Wrong.

Actually that is true as it turns out.

keras said:
Many prophesies tell us that the great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will be just one 24 hour day

On the contrary -

2 Peter 3 combines both the 2nd coming and all the events at the millennium into the single term "the Day of the LORD". It is not a unit of time. So then no such thing as 12 "day of the Lord"s.

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed,...
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

The second coming of Christ plus the lake of fire event are all collapsed into "the day of the Lord"

keras said:
This rather silly idea is quite unscriptural and simply impossible.

that's a response to scripture that we see now and then.

BobRyan · Jul 19, 2020

keras said:
Nowhere does Rev 7, or anywhere else in the Bible, say the saints, that is: the Christian Church will go to live in heaven.

Matthew 5:16 glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;

John 14
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Matt 5
11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

BobRyan · Jul 19, 2020

keras said:
That fanciful idea contradicts God's Plan to have His faithful people in His holy Land, being the ones He always wanted there, but has never yet had. Ezekiel 39:25-29, all of the faithful Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16

In Rev 20-21 we see that after the 1000 years is over - the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and is on Earth. Then there is a "new Earth" created after the lake of fire event - and the saints inherit the Earth.

keras · Jul 19, 2020

BobRyan said:
that's a response to scripture that we see now and then.

The Great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, is a Day years before and quite different from the Great Day of the Lord Almighty, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:11
Conflating the 2 Day's; is as I say, quite wrong and totally unscriptural.

NONE of the four scriptures you posted in #98, say anyone will go to live in heaven.
Our rewards are kept there, our citizenship is recorded there and eventually God and therefore heaven will come to the earth.
What is it that makes you think humans can live there? Before the GWT Judgment and immortality. Jesus said it was impossible. John 3:13

Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

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Lamad

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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