Chosen By Grace

Mr. M · Jul 15, 2020

Who among the Jews were chosen by Christ Jesus to serve His gospel?
Was the requirement that they be blameless with regard to righteousness
of the Law?
Romans 11:
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise
grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking.
The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written,
God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.

com7fy8 · Jul 15, 2020

1 Timothy 1:14 the way you said:
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith
and love which are in Christ Jesus.

It looks like Paul is saying the grace is not only God choosing, but there is "faith and love" in this grace.

This faith and love effects us in our character so we become conformed to the image of Jesus. And Paul our Apostle says >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, I see this connection > we become elect because of the action of God's grace which includes His love effecting our character so we become changed to be like Jesus. And this is the destiny of His grace: not merely how our label is changed to be "elect", but God in His grace is almighty to change us to become like Jesus.

Mr. M · Jul 15, 2020

com7fy8 said:
It looks like Paul is saying the grace is not only God choosing, but there is "faith and love" in this grace.

This faith and love effects us in our character so we become conformed to the image of Jesus. And Paul our Apostle says >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, I see this connection > we become elect because of the action of God's grace which includes His love effecting our character so we become changed to be like Jesus. And this is the destiny of His grace: not merely how our label is changed to be "elect", but God in His grace is almighty to change us to become like Jesus.

Yes and Amen! So much more than "the unmerited favor of God".
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.

JohnDB · Jul 15, 2020

Baby Tiger said:
Who among the Jews were chosen by Christ Jesus to serve His gospel?
Was the requirement that they be blameless with regard to righteousness
of the Law?
Romans 11:
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise
grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking.
The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written,
God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.

What about Paul? If he was entrusted with the gospel to the nations,
it must have been because he was blameless with regard to the
righteousness by the Law.
1 Timothy 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because
He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry,
13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent
man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith
and love which are in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ
Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe in Him for everlasting life.

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

In Luke 12 the answer to this bit of scripture is explained further and expounded upon.

Luke was a travelling companion of Paul's.

Jesus told 4 parables explaining sin from the least to the worst.
Lost sheep
Lost coin
Prodigal Son
Shrewd Manager

Which can be used to classify sins as
Sins of ignorance
Sins of negligence
Planned sins
Sins of unforgiveness/judgementalness.

They are listed in this order because of our inability to repent from them. It's much easier to repent of a bit of ignorance than a sin we know is wrong but do anyway.

Paul had a clean motive for his early Christian persecution. He was acting in ignorance. And he did a 180° turnaround. He wasn't like the other Pharisees who were unforgiving and judgemental...all puffed up with pride.

That's what he is talking about as to his "chosen" status and why God chose him.

Mr. M · Jul 15, 2020

JohnDB said:
Paul had a clean motive for his early Christian persecution. He was acting in ignorance. And he did a 180° turnaround. He wasn't like the other Pharisees who were unforgiving and judgemental...all puffed up with pride.

"He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry".
As to his 180, it was immediately effective!
Acts 9:20. Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

JohnDB · Jul 15, 2020

Baby Tiger said:
"He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry".
As to his 180, it was immediately effective!
Acts 9:20. Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

Paul had always loved God passionately.
When he discovered that indeed Jesus was the promised Messiah...it was GAME ON.
He had acted in ignorance the whole time...now even then "ignorance of the law is no excuse"...and Paul considered himself very guilty. (And he was)

It's just like Socrates last words "What do you mean hemlock is poison?". He was unable to recover from that mistake...he still had to pay the price. That's what Paul expected but didn't receive.

com7fy8 · Jul 15, 2020

Baby Tiger said:
So much more than "the unmerited favor of God".

Well, we did not merit God saving us. So, the grace of salvation is unmerited . . . by us. But Jesus on the cross merited that we would be saved, right?

So, our salvation is merited by Jesus!

Therefore, there is all which does merit God's grace > all which God favors > He favors how Jesus is, and He favors and has predestined that we "become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren," our Apostle Paul says in Romans 8:29.

In your thread, you have talked about being chosen by grace. In another thread, I am offering opportunity for us to share about what God's grace does with us, after we have become saved >

Yes, we have been saved by grace; and now what does grace do? | Christian Forums

Mr. M · Jul 15, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Well, we did not merit God saving us. So, the grace of salvation is unmerited . . . by us. But Jesus on the cross merited that we would be saved, right?

So, our salvation is merited by Jesus!

Therefore, there is all which does merit God's grace > all which God favors > He favors how Jesus is, and He favors and has predestined that we "become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren," our Apostle Paul says in Romans 8:29.

In your thread, you have talked about being chosen by grace. In another thread, I am offering opportunity for us to share about what God's grace does with us, after we have become saved >

Yes, we have been saved by grace; and now what does grace do? | Christian Forums

Thank you for that. So there is no mistake, I was in no way questioning the unmerited nature of
the grace we receive. Just saying there is so much more, as in the verse I quoted:
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.
I do not expect to find anything in your post that I will now visit that we are in disagreement over.
I will add one favorite verse, here and there.
Acts 4:33. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Grace and Peace!!!

Mr. M · Jul 19, 2020

What about Paul? If he was entrusted with the gospel to the nations,
it must have been because he was blameless with regard to the
righteousness by the Law.
1 Timothy 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because
He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry,
13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent
man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith
and love which are in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ
Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe in Him for everlasting life.

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

com7fy8 · Jul 19, 2020

Baby Tiger said:
What about Paul? If he was entrusted with the gospel to the nations,
it must have been because he was blameless with regard to the
righteousness by the Law.

Didn't Paul say he as an unbeliever was righteous according to the Law? Philippians 3:6-7 > he says that was a thing to count as "loss"!! And his glorifying of that sort of righteousness had been a reason why he was not qualified, I think he is saying. So, it is a foil of what has truly qualified him to be an apostle of Jesus, I consider.

In any case, another item is Jesus "gave" apostleship (Ephesians 4:11) to the ones who are apostles. It is a gift, not earned, of His unmerited grace. And James says every gift from God is "good" and "perfect" > James 1:17. But having a perfectly good gift did not mean the individual is perfectly good like the Holy Spirit who is living the gift in a person.

Do we have evidence that Paul could mess up and act against his apostolic gift? I offer how Paul got in that fight . . . I now understand . . . with Barnabas, about whether or not to keep "John called Mark" with them > Acts 15:36-41. What I personally get with this is Barnabas was more mature than Paul; Barnabas had been a disciple for some time before Paul got saved; and Barnabas was known for comforting the disciples. So, he could have hope with compassion for brothers and sisters who were not doing well > love "hopes all things" we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7. So, here might be an example of how Paul still could be wrong and needed to mature better in how to love. He had his gift, though, to keep him doing things which are good. But that gift was going to change him to find out better how to love and not give up on anyone . . . I consider . . . for application to myself, in any case!

And we see how our Apostle Peter messed up, so big-time, in Galatians 2:11-13. And he had his gift, too. But because he himself was not so good and perfect like his gift, he could mess up, even going contrary to his gift!!

I personally believe that apostleship is God's standardization gift, for conforming the church to Jesus and to the correct representation of the Gospel and how Jesus has us loving and speaking His word. However, in case my theory is correct > even those who have had this gift have needed for their own gift to standardize them more

We see how the apostles were gifted to walk with Jesus; but while they were with him, so blessed, so given such a gift . . . they abused that by fighting among themselves about who was the greatest, plus they could actually exercise conceit against others, by criticizing certain people for coming near Jesus > of all things!! > they were supposed to bring people to Jesus.

So, our gifts do not at all indicate that we are due special status and automatic and unquestioning praise and trust. We are chosen, thanks to who Jesus is, indeed

Jesus, really, is the One who is chosen. And so, our being chosen brings on how God changes us to become like His Son who is so pleasing to Him. His grace, then . . . truly . . . favors Jesus and our becoming and loving like Jesus > here is one scripture to support this >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

And 1 Peter 4:9-10 says >

"Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:9-10)

Through this, I see that every gift of the Holy Spirit deeply ministers God's own grace which changes us to become and love, and to please our Father, like Jesus loves and pleases our Father while sharing with us as family but also loving any and all people. The outward activity of a gift might not make this obvious, but deeper this is what we experience with one another in God's loving.

Every one of us is this important, then, able to so minister through our gifts and, by the way, also by means of our growing good example which is in the sight of God and God is therefore spreading how we are becoming like Jesus, to help others become the same way. So, yes God uses good example of maturity in love, not only the outward doings of gifts.

So, reputation before humans is not really what a gift is about, but all which is happening in the sight of God > among other scriptures for this we have how we become because of Jesus in us so pleasing to our Father >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

Mr. M · Jul 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Didn't Paul say he as an unbeliever was righteous according to the Law? Philippians 3:6-7 > he says that was a thing to count as "loss"!! And his glorifying of that sort of righteousness had been a reason why he was not qualified, I think he is saying. So, it is a foil of what has truly qualified him to be an apostle of Jesus, I consider.

In any case, another item is Jesus "gave" apostleship (Ephesians 4:11) to the ones who are apostles. It is a gift, not earned, of His unmerited grace. And James says every gift from God is "good" and "perfect" > James 1:17. But having a perfectly good gift did not mean the individual is perfectly good like the Holy Spirit who is living the gift in a person.

Do we have evidence that Paul could mess up and act against his apostolic gift? I offer how Paul got in that fight . . . I now understand . . . with Barnabas, about whether or not to keep "John called Mark" with them > Acts 15:36-41. What I personally get with this is Barnabas was more mature than Paul; Barnabas had been a disciple for some time before Paul got saved; and Barnabas was known for comforting the disciples. So, he could have hope with compassion for brothers and sisters who were not doing well > love "hopes all things" we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7. So, here might be an example of how Paul still could be wrong and needed to mature better in how to love. He had his gift, though, to keep him doing things which are good. But that gift was going to change him to find out better how to love and not give up on anyone . . . I consider . . . for application to myself, in any case!

And we see how our Apostle Peter messed up, so big-time, in Galatians 2:11-13. And he had his gift, too. But because he himself was not so good and perfect like his gift, he could mess up, even going contrary to his gift!!

I personally believe that apostleship is God's standardization gift, for conforming the church to Jesus and to the correct representation of the Gospel and how Jesus has us loving and speaking His word. However, in case my theory is correct > even those who have had this gift have needed for their own gift to standardize them more

We see how the apostles were gifted to walk with Jesus; but while they were with him, so blessed, so given such a gift . . . they abused that by fighting among themselves about who was the greatest, plus they could actually exercise conceit against others, by criticizing certain people for coming near Jesus > of all things!! > they were supposed to bring people to Jesus.

So, our gifts do not at all indicate that we are due special status and automatic and unquestioning praise and trust. We are chosen, thanks to who Jesus is, indeed Jesus, really, is the One who is chosen. And so, our being chosen brings on how God changes us to become like His Son who is so pleasing to Him. His grace, then . . . truly . . . favors Jesus and our becoming and loving like Jesus > here is one scripture to support this >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

And 1 Peter 4:9-10 says >

"Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:9-10)

Through this, I see that every gift of the Holy Spirit deeply ministers God's own grace which changes us to become and love, and to please our Father, like Jesus loves and pleases our Father while sharing with us as family but also loving any and all people. The outward activity of a gift might not make this obvious, but deeper this is what we experience with one another in God's loving.

Every one of us is this important, then, able to so minister through our gifts and, by the way, also by means of our growing good example which is in the sight of God and God is therefore spreading how we are becoming like Jesus, to help others become the same way. So, yes God uses good example of maturity in love, not only the outward doings of gifts.

So, reputation before humans is not really what a gift is about, but all which is happening in the sight of God > among other scriptures for this we have how we become because of Jesus in us so pleasing to our Father >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

The question and statement are given in contrast to Paul's own testimony given in 1 Timothy 1.
I agree with Paul, and you, that it was not his claim to righteousness by the law blameless in Philippians 3 that qualified him. He disavows this himself in the following verses. Some have taken Philippians 3:6 to support some contention that righteousness can still be attained by the Law. A mystery to me how that conclusion can be reached given his complete testimony. And yet, there it is. Let us pray for wisdom, always for every brethren beloved.
I think you were responding to my statement without the following verses that contradict the statement. You see what I did?

com7fy8 · Jul 19, 2020

Baby Tiger said:
I think you were responding to my statement without the following verses that contradict the statement. You see what I did?

I think they can help to supplement each other. They are not contradictory.

The righteousness of the law is not the same as the righteousness of Jesus. One is in behavior, including inside a person, I would say, while the other is how we become in our character in sharing with Jesus in us.

And included in being chosen by grace is how grace changes our nature, with our Father's deep character-changing correction included in this process > Hebrews 12:4-14.

I would say everything Paul says fits with this, but we have the ability to get understandings of the Bible which do contradict each other.

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Chosen By Grace

Mr. M

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com7fy8

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JohnDB

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