Behold

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To "wrongly abide".... is to believe that you keep yourself saved by "abiding" as a self effort.
"im doing it, im remaining, im enduring, im abiding"....my effort, myself, its ME doing it.... me, me, me, me, me.
In other words...>"by abiding, I keep myself saved".
This is "self saving"....this is Legalism.
Legalism substitutes self effort, for the Blood Atonement.
Legalism is self righteousness that puts you on the Cross and rips Jesus off the Nails.

If we are born again, then we are MADE the righteousness of God, in Christ...BY GOD.
He does this for you. "The Gift of Salvation". God puts us into His eternal family. We are born again, INTO GOD's Spirit.
"Abiding" is to BE " always in Christ"....its to be put there and kept there by the Holy Spirit.
The proof you are abiding, is to be Born again, as that is how you abide...or how you got there, and stay there. "In Christ". (Abiding)

We dont put ourselves into God's family.....God puts us there.
Its God who purchased us with the Blood of Jesus, and Its God who lives inside us, which establishes us as "In Christ". (Abiding)
We are always abiding, because God is always abiding in us. 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory".
"we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit".

To no longer be "in Christ" or to abide there,.God would have to leave you, and take Jesus and the Holy Spirit out of you.
= Impossible.
Jesus said He will never leave you or forsake you.
Jesus said that no person can take you out of Jesus's hand, and that includes you.. "no one, no man, no person", includes you.
To abide in God is to be found IN GOD by being Born again Into God's Spirit. "ONE" with God and Christ.
We dont cause this, so, we can't undo this..
There is no way to be un-born again..
IN fact, if a believer could go to hell, then God and Christ and the Holy Spirit would have to go with them, as these 3 never leave you.... if you are Born again.

Remember, we are in God's family.....we are IN the Family. Put there BY God. We abide there always, because we are IN the Family.
Heirs of God. Joint heirs of Christ.
"as Jesus IS.......so are the born again, in this world".
We the born again, are "seated in heavenly places, in Christ"...right now, while we are in a body on earth.

And also..
Consider....
You are born from your mother into this world.
If you are saved.....You are born of your Spiritual Father in Heaven,= into His eternity, His eternal family, into HIM.
So......Can you stop being born?
= No.
Think of it like this...... You are born of your mother.. and one day when you are 77 yrs old, you hate her. HATE. And you decide you will no longer be her child.
You will stop abiding as her child., as that is your decision. You have made up your mind... You will walk away.
Well, are you still her child, even if you hate her and dont want to be her child anymore, and have made up your mind?
Yes you are....no matter how you abide or not...or think... or walk away.
See, you are BORN from her.....and you can't stop this by behavior or decision, or by walking away....etc.
You are also BORN of your Spiritual Father in Heaven, and you can't stop this by how you think in your mind or how you behave in your life.
You BELONG to God. He has purchased you with His very own BLood.
You are "Blood bought".. is how the NT describes your eternal situation.

BORN, is born.....always.. both on earth and in Heaven.
We are born on earth and we are born again into God's family.
Its done, in both cases.
 
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Phil W

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To "wrongly abide".... is to believe that you keep yourself saved by "abiding" as a self effort.
"im doing it, im remaining, im enduring, im abiding"....my effort, myself, its ME doing it.... me, me, me, me, me.
In other words...>"by abiding, I keep myself saved".
This is "self saving"....this is Legalism.
Legalism substitutes self effort, for the Blood Atonement.
Legalism is self righteousness that puts you on the Cross and rips Jesus off the Nails.

If we are born again, then we are MADE the righteousness of God, in Christ...BY GOD.
He does this for you. "The Gift of Salvation". God puts us into His eternal family. We are born again, INTO GOD's Spirit.
"Abiding" is to BE " always in Christ"....its to be put there and kept there by the Holy Spirit.
The proof you are abiding, is to be Born again, as that is how you abide...or how you got there, and stay there. "In Christ". (Abiding)

We dont put ourselves into God's family.....God puts us there.
Its God who purchased us with the Blood of Jesus, and Its God who lives inside us, which establishes us as "In Christ". (Abiding)
We are always abiding, because God is always abiding in us. 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory".
"we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit".

To no longer be "in Christ" or to abide there,.God would have to leave you, and take Jesus and the Holy Spirit out of you.
= Impossible.
Jesus said He will never leave you or forsake you.
Jesus said that no person can take you out of Jesus's hand, and that includes you.. "no one, no man, no person", includes you.
To abide in God is to be found IN GOD by being Born again Into God's Spirit. "ONE" with God and Christ.
We dont cause this, so, we can't undo this..
There is no way to be un-born again..
IN fact, if a believer could go to hell, then God and Christ and the Holy Spirit would have to go with them, as these 3 never leave you.... if you are Born again.

Remember, we are in God's family.....we are IN the Family. Put there BY God. We abide there always, because we are IN the Family.
Heirs of God. Joint heirs of Christ.
"as Jesus IS.......so are the born again, in this world".
We the born again, are "seated in heavenly places, in Christ"...right now, while we are in a body on earth.

And also..
Consider....
You are born from your mother into this world.
If you are saved.....You are born of your Spiritual Father in Heaven,= into His eternity, His eternal family, into HIM.
So......Can you stop being born?
= No.
Think of it like this...... You are born of your mother.. and one day when you are 77 yrs old, you hate her. HATE. And you decide you will no longer be her child.
You will stop abiding as her child., as that is your decision. You have made up your mind... You will walk away.
Well, are you still her child, even if you hate her and dont want to be her child anymore, and have made up your mind?
Yes you are....no matter how you abide or not...or think... or walk away.
See, you are BORN from her.....and you can't stop this by behavior or decision, or by walking away....etc.
You are also BORN of your Spiritual Father in Heaven, and you can't stop this by how you think in your mind or how you behave in your life.
You BELONG to God. He has purchased you with His very own BLood.
You are "Blood bought".. is how the NT describes your eternal situation.

BORN, is born.....always.. both on earth and in Heaven.
We are born on earth and we are born again into God's family.
Its done, in both cases.
So I guess that obedience to God IS legalism.
I'm OK with men putting labels on things like that, knowing it has no effect on the eventual outcome of any man's judgement.
No men except those who shun obedience in favor of wrapping themselves in mans wisdom.
It is written..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)
I'ld rather be a "legalist" than a liar.
 
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JIMINZ

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So I guess that obedience to God IS legalism.
I'm OK with men putting labels on things like that, knowing it has no effect on the eventual outcome of any man's judgement.
No men except those who shun obedience in favor of wrapping themselves in mans wisdom.
It is written..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)
I'ld rather be a "legalist" than a liar.

Still don't understand the simplicity that is to be found in Christ?

You have been taught well but, being taught well is not being taught correctly.
 
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Gregorikos

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To "wrongly abide".... is to believe that you keep yourself saved by "abiding" as a self effort.
"im doing it, im remaining, im enduring, im abiding"....my effort, myself, its ME doing it.... me, me, me, me, me.
In other words...>"by abiding, I keep myself saved".
This is "self saving"....this is Legalism.
Legalism substitutes self effort, for the Blood Atonement.
Legalism is self righteousness that puts you on the Cross and rips Jesus off the Nails.

If we are born again, then we are MADE the righteousness of God, in Christ...BY GOD.
He does this for you. "The Gift of Salvation". God puts us into His eternal family. We are born again, INTO GOD's Spirit.
"Abiding" is to BE " always in Christ"....its to be put there and kept there by the Holy Spirit.
The proof you are abiding, is to be Born again, as that is how you abide...or how you got there, and stay there. "In Christ". (Abiding)

We dont put ourselves into God's family.....God puts us there.
Its God who purchased us with the Blood of Jesus, and Its God who lives inside us, which establishes us as "In Christ". (Abiding)
We are always abiding, because God is always abiding in us. 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory".
"we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit".

To no longer be "in Christ" or to abide there,.God would have to leave you, and take Jesus and the Holy Spirit out of you.
= Impossible.
Jesus said He will never leave you or forsake you.
Jesus said that no person can take you out of Jesus's hand, and that includes you.. "no one, no man, no person", includes you.
To abide in God is to be found IN GOD by being Born again Into God's Spirit. "ONE" with God and Christ.
We dont cause this, so, we can't undo this..
There is no way to be un-born again..
IN fact, if a believer could go to hell, then God and Christ and the Holy Spirit would have to go with them, as these 3 never leave you.... if you are Born again.

Remember, we are in God's family.....we are IN the Family. Put there BY God. We abide there always, because we are IN the Family.
Heirs of God. Joint heirs of Christ.
"as Jesus IS.......so are the born again, in this world".
We the born again, are "seated in heavenly places, in Christ"...right now, while we are in a body on earth.

And also..
Consider....
You are born from your mother into this world.
If you are saved.....You are born of your Spiritual Father in Heaven,= into His eternity, His eternal family, into HIM.
So......Can you stop being born?
= No.
Think of it like this...... You are born of your mother.. and one day when you are 77 yrs old, you hate her. HATE. And you decide you will no longer be her child.
You will stop abiding as her child., as that is your decision. You have made up your mind... You will walk away.
Well, are you still her child, even if you hate her and dont want to be her child anymore, and have made up your mind?
Yes you are....no matter how you abide or not...or think... or walk away.
See, you are BORN from her.....and you can't stop this by behavior or decision, or by walking away....etc.
You are also BORN of your Spiritual Father in Heaven, and you can't stop this by how you think in your mind or how you behave in your life.
You BELONG to God. He has purchased you with His very own BLood.
You are "Blood bought".. is how the NT describes your eternal situation.

BORN, is born.....always.. both on earth and in Heaven.
We are born on earth and we are born again into God's family.
Its done, in both cases.

That sounds all well and good, but you are ignoring several plain aspects of the text.

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2 (ESV)

Did you get that? It's a branch IN HIM. And what does he do with it? TAKES IT AWAY. But you are saying that's impossible.

To no longer be "in Christ" or to abide there,.God would have to leave you, and take Jesus and the Holy Spirit out of you.
= Impossible.
To no longer be "in Christ" or to abide there,.God would have to leave you, and take Jesus and the Holy Spirit out of you.
= Impossible.

Jesus said that God takes away the branch in him that does not bear fruit. You are saying that's impossible. Who should we believe, Jesus, or you?

If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. John 15:6 (ESV)

Jesus clearly implied throughout this passage that it is possible to be in Christ, but not abide in Christ. And those who don't abide in Christ are thrown away like a branch that is severed from the vine, withers, and thrown into the fire.

Let the reader understand.
 
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JIMINZ

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That sounds all well and good, but you are ignoring several plain aspects of the text.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Where does it say that the Man Not Abiding ever did Abide?

Sounds more like a contrasting statement made by Jesus to make a specific point. (for without me ye can do nothing).
 
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Gregorikos

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Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Where does it say that the Man Not Abiding ever did Abide?

Sounds more like a contrasting statement made by Jesus to make a specific point. (for without me ye can do nothing).

First of all, it is implicit in the word abide, which means to remain in a place. One cannot abide in a place he has never been.

Second, it is given in verse 2. These were branches that were "IN HIM." Will they ABIDE... i.e. REMAIN "IN HIM?"

Third it is implied by verses 2-4. Any branch IN HIM that bears fruit, he PRUNES. (καθαίρω). The disciples were already PRUNED (καθαρός). Clearly, the disciples were included in the branches that were bearing fruit in him. And he gave them an imperative in verse 4- REMAIN in me.
 
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JIMINZ

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First of all, it is implicit in the word abide, which means to remain in a place. One cannot abide in a place he has never been.

Second, it is given in verse 2. These were branches that were "IN HIM." Will they ABIDE... i.e. REMAIN "IN HIM?"

Third it is implied by verses 2-4. Any branch IN HIM that bears fruit, he PRUNES. (καθαίρω). The disciples were already PRUNED (καθαρός). Clearly, the disciples were included in the branches that were bearing fruit in him. And he gave them an imperative in verse 4- REMAIN in me.


Jesus was also talking about the Jews as a People Nation that were not and would not Abide in Him.

Therefore the words spoken to the Disciples at that time in my opinion do not relate to the Christian walk as we know it, but to the Jews accepting Him as their Messiah, they as the Branches were being cut off to be burned, and are still in that position until the end, when they will be grafted back into the Vine.
 
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Gregorikos

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Jesus was also talking about the Jews as a People Nation that were not and would not Abide in Him.

Therefore the words spoken to the Disciples at that time in my opinion do not relate to the Christian walk as we know it, but to the Jews accepting Him as their Messiah, they as the Branches were being cut off to be burned, and are still in that position until the end, when they will be grafted back into the Vine.

I'm sorry. Jesus was not speaking to the Jews in John 13-17. The context here was the Last Supper.
 
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JIMINZ

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I'm sorry. Jesus was not speaking to the Jews in John 13-17. The context here was the Last Supper.

Comparison of two verses.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches:

Jesus speaking specifically about the Disciples.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;

Jesus speaking specifically about someone who is not a Disciple.
 
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Gregorikos

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Comparison of two verses.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches:

Jesus speaking specifically about the Disciples.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;

Jesus speaking specifically about someone who is not a Disciple.

He had to be a disciple to be IN HIM. He cannot ABIDE IN HIM if he was never IN HIM.

John 13 is the last supper. They don't get up from that table until 18:1.
 
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JIMINZ

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He had to be a disciple to be IN HIM. He cannot ABIDE IN HIM if he was never IN HIM.

John 13 is the last supper. They don't get up from that table until 18:1.

If you won't see it, I can't make you.

I do not dispute when the conversation took place,
 
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Phil W

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Still don't understand the simplicity that is to be found in Christ?
I'm not sure what you are referencing. ?

You have been taught well but, being taught well is not being taught correctly.
Again, not sure what you reference. ??
 
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Behold

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So I guess that obedience to God IS legalism.

You are to "present your body a living sacrifice".

Are you aware of this?
You are to live the life of a Disciple of Christ.....this means you are to walk in the Spirit, and also allow the Spirit of God to work through you as a vessel of God's love.
Are you aware of this?

Where the Legalism takes over that rejects God's Grace and denies the Cross is when a person is doing all those WORKS to keep themselves saved.

So, if a person believes that they go to heaven IF they do the righteous works you are talking about as their means to get into heaven, then they are either not born again, or they are and are "fallen from Grace" and are now become a self savor.
A self savor is a Legalist.
This is a person who is not trusting in Christ alone to get them into heaven.
This is why they obsess on "works" and "commandments", and self effort.
They are trusting in SELF to get into heaven. They are on the CROSS.
They are trying to keep themselves SAVED by their EFFORT.
= Legalism.
 
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Behold

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That sounds all well and good, but you are ignoring several plain aspects of the text.

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,

Im not ignoring that verse.
But im not a novice Christian who does not recognize a symbolic verse.

The novice Christian always ignores everything that Paul wrote (73% of the NT) and finds their 4 verses that are symbolic to then exit on a forum to try to deny Justification by Faith. "the Gift of Righteousness".
 
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Gregorikos

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Im not ignoring that verse.
But im not a novice Christian who does not recognize a symbolic verse.

The novice Christian always ignores everything that Paul wrote (73% of the NT) and finds their 4 verses that are symbolic to then exit on a forum to try to deny Justification by Faith. "the Gift of Righteousness".

I'm glad you're not a novice. That means we can have an intelligent conversation based on full understanding of the Scriptures. Yes, John 15:1-6 is symbolic. It's symbolic of the hell that awaits those who refuse to abide in Christ. I do not deny justification by faith at all, but such faith produces fruit, as Jesus said.

Now you want to switch to Paul? I can do Paul.

Ro 11:22, Col 1:22-23, 1 Tim 1:19-20, 2 Tim 2:12, and if Paul wrote Hebrews, then Heb 3:14-15, 6:4-6.

I can do Peter also. 2 Pet 2:1, 20-21.
 
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Behold

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I'm glad you're not a novice. That means we can have an intelligent conversation based on full understanding of the Scriptures. Yes, John 15:1-6 is symbolic. It's symbolic of the hell that awaits those who refuse to abide in Christ.

To abide in Christ is not to "present your body a living sacrifice".

To abide in Christ is to exist in Christ "spiritually" by being Born again, "in Christ", as "ONE" with God and Christ.
Branches who were broken off had no Holy Spirit in them.
Its like a dead limb on a Tree, its on the tree, but its dead because there is no "sap" getting to the limb.

Its like this...."depart from me i never knew you".....this is not said to the Born again, as How can Christ not "know you" if He is living in you, and you are the "temple of the Holy Spirit"?
So that pretty obvious, unless you just dont want to SEE it.

So, a person can name the name of Jesus, cast out devils in Jesus name, work 50 yrs with street orphans trying to "be like Jesus", and then die and go directly to Hell.
Why?
"Jesus said you must be born again".
Works are not required to be born again, and works are not required to remain born again.
A BELIEVER is born of God and Kept by God, because of God's faithfulness, not our deeds.

"God who began salvation IN the born again, will HIMSELF be FAITHFUL to complete it".

God's Salvation is God's, to give, and ours to receive.
We dont earn it, keep it, and it can't be lost, as its GODs Salvation.
 
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