Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

iamlamad · Jul 17, 2020

JulieB67 said:
Paul very clearly states the mystery. He says at the last trump, all will be changed. He didn't say a select few will be removed from the earth at that time.

And you have misunderstood the word "taken" as utilized in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

The word taken in this verse is Greek word 522 paralambano - to receive near, associate oneself with (as in a familair or intimate act or relation) -to learn -receive, take.

Common sense alone tells us these are the ones that receive and take the mark of the beast. That's the very definition of the word "taken" in this verse.

Here's another verse with the word "taken" in it.

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

The word "taken" in this verse is 522 apairo - to lift off, i.e. remove, -take (away)

If Matthew 24:40 were to mean some were actually physically taken from the earth as in the Bridegroom in Matthew 9:15, apairo would have been used, not paralambano.

This isn't what Christ or Paul taught. Christ says he comes immediately "after" the tribulation. And Paul is a second witness to his teachings. After 1st Thessalonians 4:17, if we read further into chapter 5 (the subject hasn't changed) he calls this event, "the day of the Lord" and wrote a 2nd letter to the Thessalonians because they had been confused about the timing and thought the day of Christ was at hand. He told them not to be confused or shaken in mind (even by their letter) that that day "shall not happen until a falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Christ and Paul say beware so that we are not deceived on this subject.

Again, the word "taken" in Matthew 24: 40 means exactly that, not the other way around. Remember it was the flood that "took" the wicked away. And Satan will bring on another type of flood, hoping to carry people away.

God knows how to protect his own in perilous times. That's what the ark is all about. The tribulation is shortened for the elect's sake and Christ says those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. We are to wait on the true Christ and not fall away to the fake one coming first. Anti in the Greek means "instead" of. He will be here instead of Christ. Christ says he comes at an hour many are not watching because many will believe he is already here. That's why Paul warns us about Satan being disguised as an angel of light.

We really need cling to Christ and Paul's warnings on this subject. And Christ says that with patience we are to possess our souls, it's very important.

all will be changed. He didn't say a select few will be removed from the earth at that time. We don't form doctrine from just one verse. This is a sister passage to 1 Thes. 4 & 5 and also to John 14. Using all three scripture then make a fairly complete scenario. The moment those in Christ (perhaps all who are in Christ, but certainly not all who are in the world) are caught up into the air, they will then be "removed from the earth." John 14 completes the story, Jesus goes back to heaven and we go with Him.

Matthew 24:40 It seems your "common sense" does not align with the masses here. Paralambano fits the rapture scenario perfectly. The only problem I have with it is that the rapture does not seem to fit the context of Matthew 24. For the most part, after verse 15, Jesus is talking about the 70th week of Daniel. However, since He is coming twice more, first FOR His bride, then later WITH His bride; it is possible He speaks of BOTH comings but does not really tell us which He is talking about.

apairo would have been used, not paralambano. It is difficult to second guess an author.

Christ says he comes immediately "after" the tribulation. Certainly He does say that: but that is not His coming in 1 Thes. He is coming TWICE more. It is very difficult (impossible) to get all scripture to fit one more coming. He is coming first FOR His bride, then later WITH His bride. His next coming, FOR His bride, is before any part of "the tribulation" or the 70th week. In fact, it is just before the Day of the Lord, according to Paul - and John tells us the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal, before any part of the 70th week.

And Paul is a second witness to his teachings. Paul really does not talk much about the 70th week. Why? It is for the Jews, and Paul's epistles are for the Gentile church. Therefore I disagree with you here. Paul knew the church would be in heaven during that time.

he calls this event, "the day of the Lord" WHICH event? The rapture? Actually, what Paul teaches is that HIS COMING will trigger the rapture, then the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. Revelation bears this out, showing us the raptured church in heaven just after the 6th seal start of the DAY. (The great crowd too large to number.)

that that day "shall not happen until a falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God Sorry, but that is really not what Paul wrote. What he DID write is that they were kind of in shock because they heard that the day of the Lord had come, and Paul had taught them that the rapture would come FIRST. They figured either Paul was wrong, or they had been left behind. I think most people would be upset in that scenario.

Paul's answer is, the departing of the church MUST come first, then, after the departing - after the one restraining has been taken out of the way - then the man of sin can be revealed. When people see this great departing (perhaps 1/3 of earth's population suddenly disappearing) and then see the man of sin declaring he is God, ALL WILL THEN KNOW, the Day of the Lord has started, and they are now IN IT.

Remember it was the flood that "took" the wicked away. And it was GOD that provided a way of escape for Noah and family.

Satan will bring on another type of flood, hoping to carry people away. Yes, and God will provide yet another way of escape.

We really need to understand these end times scriptures.

BABerean2 · Jul 17, 2020

iamlamad said:
all will be changed. He didn't say a select few will be removed from the earth at that time. We don't form doctrine from just one verse. This is a sister passage to 1 Thes. 4 & 5 and also to John 14. Using all three scripture then make a fairly complete scenario. The moment those in Christ (perhaps all who are in Christ, but certainly not all who are in the world) are caught up into the air, they will then be "removed from the earth." John 14 completes the story, Jesus goes back to heaven and we go with Him.

A description of the gathering of the Church is found at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, but the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
There were no chapters or verses in the text when the letter was written.

The words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.

Former Pretrib believer Steven Straub reveals this truth in the video below.

.

BobRyan · Jul 17, 2020

- all prophetic timelines in the Bible are contiguous .. that means all 70 years of Jeremiah's 70 years mentioned in Dan 9:1-3 are contiguous. AND all the 490 years in the 70 weeks prophecy that is ALSO in Daniel 9 -- are... contiguous

iamlamad said:
There are millions of believers that "don't know" "all prophetic timelines are contiguous."

Interesting.. Do you pick-and-choose so that the 70 years of Jeremiah in Daniel 9 ARE contiguous but the 490 year timeline ALSO in Daniel 9 gets to have massive centuries of "undefined time" inserted into it??

Might be interesting to hear how that happened.

keras · Jul 17, 2020

BobRyan said:
Might be interesting to hear how that happened.

Daniel 9 does divide the 70 'weeks' into 3 parts.
You said the whole 490 years was completed at Jesus first Advent. This contradicts Daniel 9:26 which says the Anointed Prince will be removed after the 69th 'week'.
There is no definable 7 year period after the Crucifixion and what is described in Revelation and elsewhere, plainly places the final 7 years to happen just before Jesus Returns.
So your contention that Daniel 9:24-27 is history, is seriously wrong from this and many other reasons.
As much as you may not like it, you will see the fulfillment of that 'week'. Unless you die first.

BobRyan · Jul 17, 2020

keras said:
Daniel 9 does divide the 70 'weeks' into 3 parts.

Over the period of 490 years that point to the first coming of Christ -- we have that 490 year contiguous timeline:

49 years to build starting in 457 B.C.
Then 434 years to the Messiah (his baptism) A.D. 27
then 3.5 years the cross. -- 31 A.D.
then 3.5 yeas to complete the timeline (For example the stoning of Stephen and the Acts 13 event that follows) -- 34A.D.

So then how many piles of undocumented centuries of time would you have inserted between the 49 years (7 weeks of years) and the start of the 434 (62 weeks of years)? I think we both know it is zero years in that supposed gap.

So then what exact amount of years would you like to "insert" between the 62 weeks of years and the last 1-week ( 7 years ) - I think we both know that even to this date you don't know how many years to inject into the timeline. The model you are using messes up the entire usefulness of that 490 year timeline

keras said:
You said the whole 490 years was completed at Jesus first Advent.

Indeed - because all Bible timelines are given as a contiguous timeline else the number assigned is totally meaningless. If I say this ruler is 12 inches. But then I chop the ruler up into 3 bits and stick in a random number of miles between each bit -- how reasonable is it then to say "12 inches will bring us to the end of this wall". IT becomes "mush" as a ruler or timeline

If did that sort of thing (inserting huge piles of undefined numbers of centuries into the timeline) into the 70 years of Jeremiah as we see them referenced at the start of Daniel 9... the Jews would still be in Babylon.

keras said:
This contradicts Daniel 9:26 which says the Anointed Prince will be removed after the 69th 'week'.

Dan 9
and understand the vision:

24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

==>It is a 490 year timeline.. 70 weeks of years. And it points to the first coming .. the Messiah

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem ---> 457 B.C.
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

==> 49 years + 434 years = 483 years (still... contiguous). That's 27 A.D.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks (the 7 weeks + 62 weeks)
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (Christ crucified)

(A shot reference to Rome - that would destroy Jerusalem after the 70 weeks)
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 Then he (the Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
(new Covenant being ratified. "this cup is the New Covenant in My blood" 1 Cor 11:25)

But in the middle of the week
He (the Messiah) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Heb 10:4-12 Christ puts a stop to sacrifice and offerings at the cross according to Heb 10

There is no reason to randomly insert centuries of undefined time anywhere in this contiguous 490 year timeline.

1 Cor 11:25 tells us that the Covenant is the New Covenant and Christ is the one making it.

Heb 10:4-12 tells us that Christ is the one that puts a stop to sacrifice and offerings - by His death on the cross.

Heb 10
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

1. The prediction in Dan 9 has "explicit" fulfillment in Christ according to the NT.
2. And ALL Bible timelines are contiguous so that they can actually be used as a timeline where if you know the start point THEN you know the end point.

Nothing convoluted - everything direct and simple. IF you know the start year for the timeline (as with all timelines) and you know the length of the timeline - then you know the end of it (as with all timelines)

Dan 9 is one of the greatest Messianic prophecies in all of scripture. It is all about Christ.

Timtofly · Jul 17, 2020

iamlamad said:
Dust is not changed.
You really need to grab your dictionary and look up "resurrection."
Question: did Jesus body turn to dust - or was it resurrected? You KNOW His body was resurrected: He had the nail holes in His hands and feet. And Jesus, as the "firstfruits" was the prototype: all the rest would follow Him.

Resurrection: "(in Christian belief) the rising of the dead at the Last Judgment."
": to bring (a dead person) back to life. : to cause (something that had ended or been forgotten or lost) to exist again, to be used again, etc."
"Resurrection or anastasis is the concept of coming back to life after death."

The spirit and soul (mind, will, emotions) of a human never die, so never need to be resurrected. It is the body that dies.

Yet not one verse on dust changing. Here is Paul's take, 1 Corinthians 15:35-51

35 But someone will ask, “In what manner are the dead raised? What sort of body do they have?”
36 Stupid! When you sow a seed, it doesn’t come alive unless it first dies.
37 Also, what you sow is not the body that will be, but a bare seed of, say, wheat or something else;
38 but God gives it the body he intended for it; and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
39 Not all living matter is the same living matter; on the contrary, there is one kind for human beings, another kind of living matter for animals, another for birds and another for fish.
40 Further, there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the beauty of heavenly bodies is one thing, while the beauty of earthly bodies is something else.
41 The sun has one kind of beauty, the moon another, the stars yet another; indeed, each star has its own individual kind of beauty.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is “sown,” it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay.
43 When sown, it is without dignity; when raised, it will be beautiful. When sown, it is weak; when raised, it will be strong.
44 When sown, it is an ordinary human body; when raised, it will be a body controlled by the Spirit. If there is an ordinary human body, there is also a body controlled by the Spirit.
45 In fact, the Tanakh says so: Adam, the first man, became a living human being; but the last “Adam” has become a life-giving Spirit.
46 Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards.
47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 People born of dust are like the man of dust, and people born from heaven are like the man from heaven;
49 and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, so also we will bear the image of the man from heaven.
50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!

I am not denying the first half of the chapter. All the OT saints were resurrected at the cross. 3 days later, they all ascended with the Lamb to the throne to be placed under the alter, Paradise with Christ. Each time a believers dies, since that moment, they go immediately under the alter, with Christ in Paradise. 2 Corinthians 5. Paul is not being deceptive, he just did not cover all aspects in 1 Corinthians. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord. To be present with the Lord is already an incorruptible body. But it is not glorified until the 5th seal.

The old body for those dead in Christ will never be resurrected. It has already been changed. Verse 46, says the soul is quickened. It is no longer a body of dust, but a spiritual body. The soul is in a new body in Paradise, but not yet glorified. The living cannot prevent the dead from being changed. They already are changed. If, if any are alive in Christ at the 6th seal, they will be changed in the air, because this body, cannot enter Paradise. John correctly says the 5th seal is not a resurrection. In fact, he specifically states on the Monday, the first Day of the Millennium is the first resurrection. Now those in the temple of God in Chapter 7, changed in the 5th and 6th seal, do not take part in the Specified, FIRST Resurrection in Revelation. The seals happened at least 5 years before the battle of Armageddon. Only those raised in Revelation 20, are those who accept the Lamb and the testimony of the 144K Jewish male virgins, discpiles of the Lamb who go wherever the Lamb goes, Revelation 14.

All of humanity dies in the Trumpets, Thunders, and the 3.5 year period of Satan, those beheaded for not taking the mark. Any one left will be killed in the battle of Armageddon. The first resurrection of Revelation in chapter 20, is not the rapture of the church, no one alive to rapture. It is not the resurrection of the church. They have been in the temple of God with glorified bodies, the 5th seal. The FIRST resurrection of Revelation in chapter 20 is only dead people who get new bodies of flesh and blood, after being killed because of the witness of their testimony for following the Lamb, or they were beheaded for not taking the mark. They do not reign from heaven. They live on earth and have offspring for 1000 years. The church in Paradise and glorified bodies no longer biological flesh and blood, DO NOT populate on earth. No, I am not going to try and match up every verse in the OT, and every verse in the NT, to prove a doctrine or theology. I am here to make people think. Well at least attempt people to accept Jesus is arriving soon and the church needs to repent.

keras · Jul 17, 2020

BobRyan said:
Dan 9 is one of the greatest Messianic prophecies in all of scripture. It is all about Christ.

Sure.
It leads up to Jesus Crucifixion at the end of the 69th 'week'. Then it describes what will happen at the end of the 70th 'week', as you quoted in Daniel 9:24.
Have those things happened yet? If not, your premise is invalid.

BobRyan · Jul 17, 2020

keras said:
Sure.
It leads up to Jesus Crucifixion at the end of the 69th 'week'. Then it describes what will happen at the end of the 70th 'week', as you quoted in Daniel 9:24.
Have those things happened yet? If not, your premise is invalid.

1. I point to all those things in the detail not just in Daniel 7 but also in the NT where each prediction is fulfilled.
2. Vs 24 is talking about the probation period for Israel as God's nation-church - His Gospel proclaiming organization on Earth. At some point they crossed the line in those 490 years... probably with the stoning of Stephen... 34 A.D. at the end.
3. Timelines work precisely because knowing the start date and the length -- the timeline gives you the end point.

Still WITHIN that 490 year timeline not only do they fill up then the measure..

Matt 23
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

But also the Atoning sacrifice of Christ was completed -
1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world"

And Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father -- ministering the benefits of that Atonment in heaven for Us - which Paul says "is the main point" in Heb 8

Heb 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption

15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 1...20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.”

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

====================

That's right friends - Daniel 9 is all about Christ. The atoning sacrifice He accomplished on the cross and His ministry in heaven as our High Priest.

Dan 9 -
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

keras · Jul 18, 2020

BobRyan said:
Dan 9 -
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

make an end of sin.... huh?
What world do you live in?

No Bob, Revelation very well describes the last half of the final 7 years of this age. It is still yet to happen and after it, Jesus will Return and literally fulfil Daniel 9:27.

iamlamad · Jul 18, 2020

BABerean2 said:
A description of the gathering of the Church is found at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, but the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
There were no chapters or verses in the text when the letter was written.

The words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.

.

TRUTH of the pretrib rapture has no paradox. Anything suggesting a paradox is myth.

iamlamad · Jul 18, 2020

keras said:
make an end of sin.... huh?
What world do you live in?

No Bob, Revelation very well describes the last half of the final 7 years of this age. It is still yet to happen and after it, Jesus will Return and literally fulfil Daniel 9:27.

This is good, and as far as it goes, truth. But the whole truth is, Revelation describes the ENTIRE 70th week.

iamlamad · Jul 18, 2020

BobRyan said:
1. I point to all those things in the detail not just in Daniel 7 but also in the NT where each prediction is fulfilled.
2. Vs 24 is talking about the probation period for Israel as God's nation-church - His Gospel proclaiming organization on Earth. At some point they crossed the line in those 490 years... probably with the stoning of Stephen... 34 A.D. at the end.
3. Timelines work precisely because knowing the start date and the length -- the timeline gives you the end point.

Still WITHIN that 490 year timeline not only do they fill up then the measure..

Matt 23
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

But also the Atoning sacrifice of Christ was completed -
1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world"

And Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father -- ministering the benefits of that Atonment in heaven for Us - which Paul says "is the main point" in Heb 8

Heb 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption

15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 1...20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.”

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

====================

That's right friends - Daniel 9 is all about Christ. The atoning sacrifice He accomplished on the cross and His ministry in heaven as our High Priest.

Dan 9 -
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Future: Dictionary.com
"noun
time that is to be or come hereafter.
something that will exist or happen in time to come:"

Example: the 70th week of Daniel is a "future" event. It will come sometime AFTER "now." It may start this year, or it may start next year. The point is, it has not even started: none of it is in our past. It will last 2520 days. It will begin with the first 1260 days, then a midpoint event that will divide it. Then the final 1260 days.

There will be a sign before it starts: a worldwide earthquake like nothing we have seen to date. Once an event happens that will burn up all the grass and 1/3 of all the trees- perhaps a nuclear exchange (nuclear war) - then all will know that the week has begun.

When 1/3 of a sea or several seas or all the seas turn to blood, all should be convinced, the 70th week will have started and they are no in it.

When 1/3 of the fresh water turns to blood, there should no longer be any doubt that the week has begun.

When 1/3 of earth's population is killed suddenly, all can be positively sure: they are inside the 70th week.

BABerean2 · Jul 18, 2020

iamlamad said:
This is good, and as far as it goes, truth. But the whole truth is, Revelation describes the ENTIRE 70th week.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

.

iamlamad · Jul 18, 2020

Timtofly said:
Yet not one verse on dust changing. Here is Paul's take, 1 Corinthians 15:35-51

35 But someone will ask, “In what manner are the dead raised? What sort of body do they have?”
36 Stupid! When you sow a seed, it doesn’t come alive unless it first dies.
37 Also, what you sow is not the body that will be, but a bare seed of, say, wheat or something else;
38 but God gives it the body he intended for it; and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
39 Not all living matter is the same living matter; on the contrary, there is one kind for human beings, another kind of living matter for animals, another for birds and another for fish.
40 Further, there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the beauty of heavenly bodies is one thing, while the beauty of earthly bodies is something else.
41 The sun has one kind of beauty, the moon another, the stars yet another; indeed, each star has its own individual kind of beauty.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is “sown,” it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay.
43 When sown, it is without dignity; when raised, it will be beautiful. When sown, it is weak; when raised, it will be strong.
44 When sown, it is an ordinary human body; when raised, it will be a body controlled by the Spirit. If there is an ordinary human body, there is also a body controlled by the Spirit.
45 In fact, the Tanakh says so: Adam, the first man, became a living human being; but the last “Adam” has become a life-giving Spirit.
46 Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards.
47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 People born of dust are like the man of dust, and people born from heaven are like the man from heaven;
49 and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, so also we will bear the image of the man from heaven.
50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!

I am not denying the first half of the chapter. All the OT saints were resurrected at the cross. 3 days later, they all ascended with the Lamb to the throne to be placed under the alter, Paradise with Christ. Each time a believers dies, since that moment, they go immediately under the alter, with Christ in Paradise. 2 Corinthians 5. Paul is not being deceptive, he just did not cover all aspects in 1 Corinthians. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord. To be present with the Lord is already an incorruptible body. But it is not glorified until the 5th seal.

The old body for those dead in Christ will never be resurrected. It has already been changed. Verse 46, says the soul is quickened. It is no longer a body of dust, but a spiritual body. The soul is in a new body in Paradise, but not yet glorified. The living cannot prevent the dead from being changed. They already are changed. If, if any are alive in Christ at the 6th seal, they will be changed in the air, because this body, cannot enter Paradise. John correctly says the 5th seal is not a resurrection. In fact, he specifically states on the Monday, the first Day of the Millennium is the first resurrection. Now those in the temple of God in Chapter 7, changed in the 5th and 6th seal, do not take part in the Specified, FIRST Resurrection in Revelation. The seals happened at least 5 years before the battle of Armageddon. Only those raised in Revelation 20, are those who accept the Lamb and the testimony of the 144K Jewish male virgins, discpiles of the Lamb who go wherever the Lamb goes, Revelation 14.

All of humanity dies in the Trumpets, Thunders, and the 3.5 year period of Satan, those beheaded for not taking the mark. Any one left will be killed in the battle of Armageddon. The first resurrection of Revelation in chapter 20, is not the rapture of the church, no one alive to rapture. It is not the resurrection of the church. They have been in the temple of God with glorified bodies, the 5th seal. The FIRST resurrection of Revelation in chapter 20 is only dead people who get new bodies of flesh and blood, after being killed because of the witness of their testimony for following the Lamb, or they were beheaded for not taking the mark. They do not reign from heaven. They live on earth and have offspring for 1000 years. The church in Paradise and glorified bodies no longer biological flesh and blood, DO NOT populate on earth. No, I am not going to try and match up every verse in the OT, and every verse in the NT, to prove a doctrine or theology. I am here to make people think. Well at least attempt people to accept Jesus is arriving soon and the church needs to repent.

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is “sown,” it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay.
Decay means dust: that will happen to every dead body eventually: dust. But God is all powerful and can REFORM that dust back into a body.

All the OT saints were resurrected at the cross. Sorry, the Word says "many," not all. Probably it was only the elders that were raised when Jesus rose from the dead.

they all ascended with the Lamb to the throne to be placed under the alter Why are you confused the martyrs with those that die a normal death? Those seen under the altar are MARTYRS: people MURDERED because of their faith. By the way, heaven is a very HUGE place: probably a planet - but MUCH bigger than earth. All those who were declared righteous since Adam, are there now, enjoying what God has provided. It is the martyrs that had a special place under the altar.

To be present with the Lord is already an incorruptible body. Yes, our spirit man has a spirit body. But it is NOT a flesh and bone body like our resurrection body will have. All the spirits of just men in heaven are visible with a spirit body. But they are awaiting the day of resurrection when they will receive a flesh and bone body so they will be complete once again: spirit, soul, and body.

But it is not glorified until the 5th seal. Where on earth do you come up with this? My bible does not tell such theories. We all will get glorified bodies on the day of the resurrection. NOT UNTIL. Please, get this part straight: the 5th seal is for MARTYRS ONLY: that special group of saints that were, are, and will be murdered for their faith. Just do you can know from now on, the day of resurrection for those in Christ is the event we call the rapture of the church. (the 5th seal was opened long ago, in time for Stephen.

The old body for those dead in Christ will never be resurrected. It has already been changed. Why do you teach MYTH? There are untold millions of bodies of NT saints turned to dust. But the dust is STILL THERE. Many will still have bones not yet turned to dust. On the day of resurrection God will instantly collect all that "dust" into the place (grave) where that body was placed and reform the body, just as it was when that person was perhaps 30 years old, but without any imperfections, then raise it up out of the grave ("the graves were opened" Mat. 27) then instantly change it into a resurrection, flesh and bone body that will never die. Job knew this: why don't you know this?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Note, Job says IN MY FLESH... It is going to be HIS BODY. The very body He died with, but changed: no longer a flesh and blood body; the resurrection body will be flesh and bone.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Verse 46, says the soul is quickened. No, wrong yet again: Read: "Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards." Do you see "soul" anywhere? He is talking about BODIES: first comes the "ordinary human body: our flesh and blood body. But afterwards, we get a resurrection "flesh and bone " body from the Holy Spirit.

The living cannot prevent the dead from being changed. They already are changed. They already are changed. No, WRONG. NOT until resurrection day.

If, if any are alive in Christ at the 6th seal, they will be changed in the air, because this body, cannot enter Paradise. Finally! Almost right. But why not include the dead in Christ that rise first? They will come up out of their graves FIRST, then we who are alive after.

In fact, he specifically states on the Monday, the first Day of the Millennium is the first resurrection. If you can't show this in a scripture copied and pasted, it is MYTH. (I know you can't.)

Now those in the temple of God in Chapter 7, changed in the 5th and 6th seal, do not take part in the Specified, FIRST Resurrection in Revelation. WRONG AGAIN! If they are in heaven, they are righteous. The "first resurrection" in Rev. 20 is the resurrection for the righteous: ALL the righteous - including Jesus - will have their part in this "first" or most honorable resurrection.

The seals happened at least 5 years before the battle of Armageddon. WRONG AGAIN. The first five seals were opened at the time the church was sent out: shortly after Christ ascended.

Only those raised in Revelation 20, are those who accept the Lamb and the testimony of the 144K Jewish male virgins, discpiles of the Lamb who go wherever the Lamb goes, Revelation 14. MYTH. Revelation 20 shows the already resurrected Old and New Testament saints seated on thrones judging.

All of humanity dies in the Trumpets, Thunders, and the 3.5 year period of Satan, those beheaded for not taking the mark. Any one left will be killed in the battle of Armageddon.
WRONG! This would mean the end of natural humans - humans in natural bodies. So you have stolen the sheep and goats from Jesus. You have stolen from Him any chance of repopulating the earth. You have stolen from Him all the people the saints are to judge. Do you really think your statement is truth? Perhaps you need to rethink it. Where do the people in "the nations" talked about later come from if all died?

The first resurrection of Revelation in chapter 20, is not the rapture of the church, no one alive to rapture. MYTH. The "first resurrection" in Rev. 20 covers all the righteous for all time: Jesus first, then the church, then the 144000, then the Old Testament saints with the Two witnesses, and those beheaded. ALL are covered in that first or chief of resurrections. It is NOT first in "TIME" it is first in priority and honor. They rest of your post is just more myth.

Timtofly · Jul 18, 2020

iamlamad said:
WRONG! This would mean the end of natural humans - humans in natural bodies. So you have stolen the sheep and goats from Jesus. You have stolen from Him any chance of repopulating the earth. You have stolen from Him all the people the saints are to judge. Do you really think your statement is truth? Perhaps you need to rethink it. Where do the people in "the nations" talked about later come from if all died?

They are bodily resurrected in the first resurrection, on the first Monday of the Millennium. You say the church is seated on those thrones judging. Was this a 3 part resurrection? Were the judges raised first? Is that not adding thoughts to the Bible? There have been many Christians who die naturally, but Christians are being martyred in this generation. You are claiming half the church stay dead and then are not in the temple, but stuck on earth? I clearly showed that it is tribulation saints, who follow the Lamb, who are given new bodies to populate the earth for 1000 years. They will be people from all the nations, and ethnicities.

The church cannot populate the earth in glorified bodies. You claim half the church is stuck on earth in glorified bodies. Even those martyrd in the last 1900 years. Then you claim wicked people are allowed to have fun on earth doing wickedness. That is not found in the Bible either, is it?

iamlamad · Jul 18, 2020

Timtofly said:
They are bodily resurrected in the first resurrection, on the first Monday of the Millennium. You say the church is seated on those thrones judging. Was this a 3 part resurrection? Were the judges raised first? Is that not adding thoughts to the Bible? There have been many Christians who die naturally, but Christians are being martyred in this generation. You are claiming half the church stay dead and then are not in the temple, but stuck on earth? I clearly showed that it is tribulation saints, who follow the Lamb, who are given new bodies to populate the earth for 1000 years. They will be people from all the nations, and ethnicities.

The church cannot populate the earth in glorified bodies. You claim half the church is stuck on earth in glorified bodies. Even those martyrd in the last 1900 years. Then you claim wicked people are allowed to have fun on earth doing wickedness. That is not found in the Bible either, is it?

They are bodily resurrected in the first resurrection, on the first Monday of the Millennium.
This is MYTH. We know from other scriptures that the pretrib rapture happened before chapter 20. It had to happen before chapter 19, for all the saints are there in heaven for the marriage and supper. It had to happen before chapter 7 for in chapter 7 John saw the raptured church in heaven.

We know from common sense that God will not leave the Old Testament saints dead and in their graves. They WILL BE resurrected. There is disagreement as to where. Some imagine when Jesus rose, but there we have the word "many" and not "all." Many is NOT all. I think there is enough evidence to show us they are resurrected at the end of the week along with the Two Witnesses, and the beheaded.

We know from Chapter 14 that the 144,000 are caught up to heaven, sometime after the midpoint of the week. Since they are in heaven, and no hint of them dying, they must be caught up just as those alive and in Christ will be caught up.

Then in chapter 19 we see the church and the Old Testament saints returning to earth on white horses as part of the armies of heaven.

In chapter 20, we see them on thrones judging. It would seem then that judging will be a part of our rewards. We are not "stuck" on earth. It will be our job in serving God.

Was this a 3 part resurrection? Were the judges raised first? Is that not adding thoughts to the Bible? What do you mean, 3 part? Do you imagine just a one time resurrection for the righteous - all at the same time? That is not what scripture shows us> Jesus first, then 2000 years later, the church. Then later still the 144,000. Then after that, the Old Testament saints with the Two Witnesses and the beheaded: we could say "3 waves" all a part of ONE (the first) resurrection. Adding? John wrote that he saw thrones and people seated on thrones. It is up to the reader to determine WHO they are? Do you remember the parable where the "reward" was cities to judge?

There have been many Christians who die naturally, but Christians are being martyred in this generation. You are claiming half the church stay dead and then are not in the temple, but stuck on earth? Sometimes it is difficult to even understand your meaning.
First, YES, Untold millions have died in Christ: without a doubt, billions.
Second, Christians have been martyred in EVERY generation. But their number is far far less than those that die a natural death.
Third, I am certainly NOT claiming that half the church stays dead! Where on earth do you get this idea? ALL the dead in Christ rise. ALL those alive and in Christ are raised (Unless God requires those alive to be expecting Him - in which case some believers may be left behind).

WHO then will get left behind? Untold MILLIONS who call themselves "Christian" but have never been born again. They will not be left dead, but without a doubt, most will either take the mark or lose their head. God tells us they will be overcome. Let's suppose a FEW make it through the week (I don't give mythical days of the week) alive, with the Jews who will survive. They will then have to pass the sheep and goat judgment. If they pass that test, then, finally, they will be allowed into the Millennial Kingdom, alive, and in natural bodies.

OH! Perhaps you imagine those seen on thrones judging are in natural bodies? NO! They are the resurrected saints. They will be judging NATURAL people.

I clearly showed that it is tribulation saints, who follow the Lamb Searching Revelation on the word "follow" I find only ONE GROUP: the 144,000. THEY follow the lamb. They are all descendants of Jacob, NOT GENTILES. I thought we were talking about the Gentile church! I must disagree with you here too.

who are given new bodies to populate the earth for 1000 years. Sorry, but only NATURAL bodies can repopulate the earth. Our new resurrection bodies will not be able to create children.
Therefore I must disagree with you again. Perhaps you can show us all a scripture?

The church cannot populate the earth in glorified bodies. Ah! Finally a glimpse of truth! So are you telling us there are "new bodies" that are not glorified bodies?

You claim half the church is stuck on earth in glorified bodies. NOT STUCK: They are doing the work of the Lord. Read it again: John saw thrones, and people seated on thrones. I did not put them on thrones: JESUS will do that.

Even those martyrd in the last 1900 years. Whoa back! Those matyrs are seen under the altar. John does not talk of them again. It is not written, but they are a part of the dead in Christ that will be resurrected and take their place with ALL the resurrected saints. Maybe you need to read posts a little closer.

Then you claim wicked people are allowed to have fun on earth doing wickedness. Please quote me on this? I don't remember saying anything like that.

BobRyan · Jul 18, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
Dan 9 -
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

keras said:
make an end of sin.... huh?
What world do you live in?

What logic is that?

If you don't stay inside the context given in Dan 9 and jump out to "sin ends at the second coming" then you miss the entire context for Dan 9 which is the coming of the Messiah -- his first coming.

All Bible timelines are contiguous. So if you know the start date and the length of the timeline you know the end point. period. there are no exceptions.

BobRyan · Jul 18, 2020

iamlamad said:
Example: the 70th week of Daniel is a "future" event. It will come sometime AFTER "now."

1. No text says that the 70th week of the 70 weeks is not the one after the 69th week or that it comes after 2020.

Having to insert vast gaps of undefined time inside of Bible timelines is the sure sign of getting off track some place.

Timtofly · Jul 18, 2020

iamlamad said:
They are bodily resurrected in the first resurrection, on the first Monday of the Millennium.
This is MYTH. We know from other scriptures that the pretrib rapture happened before chapter 20. It had to happen before chapter 19, for all the saints are there in heaven for the marriage and supper. It had to happen before chapter 7 for in chapter 7 John saw the raptured church in heaven.

We know from common sense that God will not leave the Old Testament saints dead and in their graves. They WILL BE resurrected. There is disagreement as to where. Some imagine when Jesus rose, but there we have the word "many" and not "all." Many is NOT all. I think there is enough evidence to show us they are resurrected at the end of the week along with the Two Witnesses, and the beheaded.

We know from Chapter 14 that the 144,000 are caught up to heaven, sometime after the midpoint of the week. Since they are in heaven, and no hint of them dying, they must be caught up just as those alive and in Christ will be caught up.

Then in chapter 19 we see the church and the Old Testament saints returning to earth on white horses as part of the armies of heaven.

In chapter 20, we see them on thrones judging. It would seem then that judging will be a part of our rewards. We are not "stuck" on earth. It will be our job in serving God.

Was this a 3 part resurrection? Were the judges raised first? Is that not adding thoughts to the Bible? What do you mean, 3 part? Do you imagine just a one time resurrection for the righteous - all at the same time? That is not what scripture shows us> Jesus first, then 2000 years later, the church. Then later still the 144,000. Then after that, the Old Testament saints with the Two Witnesses and the beheaded: we could say "3 waves" all a part of ONE (the first) resurrection. Adding? John wrote that he saw thrones and people seated on thrones. It is up to the reader to determine WHO they are? Do you remember the parable where the "reward" was cities to judge?

There have been many Christians who die naturally, but Christians are being martyred in this generation. You are claiming half the church stay dead and then are not in the temple, but stuck on earth? Sometimes it is difficult to even understand your meaning.
First, YES, Untold millions have died in Christ: without a doubt, billions.
Second, Christians have been martyred in EVERY generation. But their number is far far less than those that die a natural death.
Third, I am certainly NOT claiming that half the church stays dead! Where on earth do you get this idea? ALL the dead in Christ rise. ALL those alive and in Christ are raised (Unless God requires those alive to be expecting Him - in which case some believers may be left behind).

WHO then will get left behind? Untold MILLIONS who call themselves "Christian" but have never been born again. They will not be left dead, but without a doubt, most will either take the mark or lose their head. God tells us they will be overcome. Let's suppose a FEW make it through the week (I don't give mythical days of the week) alive, with the Jews who will survive. They will then have to pass the sheep and goat judgment. If they pass that test, then, finally, they will be allowed into the Millennial Kingdom, alive, and in natural bodies.

OH! Perhaps you imagine those seen on thrones judging are in natural bodies? NO! They are the resurrected saints. They will be judging NATURAL people.

I clearly showed that it is tribulation saints, who follow the Lamb Searching Revelation on the word "follow" I find only ONE GROUP: the 144,000. THEY follow the lamb. They are all descendants of Jacob, NOT GENTILES. I thought we were talking about the Gentile church! I must disagree with you here too.

who are given new bodies to populate the earth for 1000 years. Sorry, but only NATURAL bodies can repopulate the earth. Our new resurrection bodies will not be able to create children.
Therefore I must disagree with you again. Perhaps you can show us all a scripture?

The church cannot populate the earth in glorified bodies. Ah! Finally a glimpse of truth! So are you telling us there are "new bodies" that are not glorified bodies?

You claim half the church is stuck on earth in glorified bodies. NOT STUCK: They are doing the work of the Lord. Read it again: John saw thrones, and people seated on thrones. I did not put them on thrones: JESUS will do that.

Even those martyrd in the last 1900 years. Whoa back! Those matyrs are seen under the altar. John does not talk of them again. It is not written, but they are a part of the dead in Christ that will be resurrected and take their place with ALL the resurrected saints. Maybe you need to read posts a little closer.

Then you claim wicked people are allowed to have fun on earth doing wickedness. Please quote me on this? I don't remember saying anything like that.

None of the church is currently dead. They are all under the alter in Paradise. They do not ever come back to the earth to live. This church is glorified at the 5th and 6th seals. If they rule or judge others is not the point. When they are glorified is.

The Resurrection of Revelation 20 is bodily and natural bodies, not glorified bodies. This is not for any soul from before the church was completed. They were never in the church, and may never be part of the church. We are never told if these are given glorified bodies. All we know is they will not be thrown into the lake of fire. Death has no power over them. It is never even stated they would rebel. It is their children for over 40 generations who will have the choice to rebel and join Satan at the end of the 1000 years.

The difference between a spiritual and body resurrection is that the body is physically raised, but such a body is not spiritual. It is still flesh and blood, biological. Saying any portion of the church is not spiritually changed at death, is against all Scripture. That is what the Atonement did. The Atonement abolished both physical and spiritual death. But only the church is going to have glorified bodies. What else is significant about putting on a robe of white? What is the robe of white that cannot happen until the Last Day of the Lord?

The only answer can be that the Lamb presents a complete bride, including the 144K, because they were sealed before the 7th seal. Yes there are some saved written in the Lamb's book of life, after the 7th seal. These sheep and wheat are killed up until the battle of Armageddon. The next day resurrection of Revelation 20 separates those who will live on earth for the next 1000 years, and those who are bound in Death for the next 1000 years. It is not the mechanics of what happens when; that we can only surmise. It is the who and when we know about. Only the 144K seem to come and go, whenever the Lamb comes and goes. The Lamb and 144K leave for the 3.5 years of Satan, and return at the battle of Armageddon. John says there is only one and first resurrection in Revelation 20. It is not spiritual but bodily. It is not the church, but those who live on the earth. If you only have living sinful humans to populate the earth, how does sin reign with Christ? Sin as the result of disobedience ended at the end of the 7th Trumpet. Meaning all died in sin. Only resurrected bodies, not spiritual, but bodily gives Christ the sheep and wheat to reign with Christ for 1000 years.

keras · Jul 18, 2020

BobRyan said:
If you don't stay inside the context given in Dan 9 and jump out to "sin ends at the second coming" then you miss the entire context for Dan 9 which is the coming of the Messiah -- his first coming.

But sin HASN'T ended!
Indisputably sin continues in this world, but there will be nearly 1000 years after Jesus does Return, that there will be no sin. Then Satan is released for a short while and he does 'seduce the nations', then God destroys them and Satan as well.

Your Amillennium beliefs lead you to a very confused and unscriptural viewof the soon to happen end times events.

Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

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