Deceiving and Being Deceived

Studyman · Jul 18, 2020

2 Tim. 2:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

In this paragraph Paul is prophesying about a future time. He is warning Timothy, a true believer, about men who have a "Form of godliness". This would imply men who are religious in my view.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

This isn't the first time Paul has warned about religious men.

2 Cor. 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

Paul is speaking again, of religious men. Men who claim to be true believers but are not.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Jesus also warned of this very thing.

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I find these Word's of Jesus extraordinary. Of all the things HE could have warned HIS People about, I mean He could have warned of Jews, or Atheists, or Islam, or inappropriate content, or money, but HE didn't. The greatest threat for a disciple of His to take heed of, according to His own Words, are men who come in His Name, who preach He is truly the Messiah.

Is this not the very definition of a modern "Christian"?

If you think about it, isn't this theme present through out the Bible? Who called for the killing of Jesus? Heathens, or those who claimed to be God's people? Who dropped Jeremiah into the septic tank, Gentiles or Jews? This theme goes all the way back to Abel who was killed, not by non-religious men, or wild animal, but he was condemned and killed by his own "christian" brother.

So why are we to take heed of religious men? Because of deception, Yes?

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

What is deception?

The Greek for deceive = planao = to roam from safety, truth or virtue, go astray, seduce, wander, be out of the way.

So to deceive someone, would be to convince them of something that isn't "true". So then if we are to "Take Heed" that men coming in Christ's Name doesn't deceive us, that would mean being careful self proclaimed "Christians" don't convince us of something about Christ/God that isn't True.

This would mean that the "GOAL" of the master deceiver, satan itself, is to cause us to believe things about the Word of God/Christ, that are not true.

This is confirmed in Gen. 3 when God showed the very first deception in which satan went about to convince Eve that God was a Liar, and that God's instructions made her blind. And also, satan went after the woman/bride/church, not Adam himself. satan deceived to woman who then shared this same deception with those who trusted her.

This is what Paul was warning Timothy about in 2 Tim. 3. So how was Timothy to be protected from the deceivers who claimed to be of God?

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So Paul is saying to "Continue" in "ALL SCRIPTURE".

Jesus said the same thing. "Man shall not live by Bread alone, but by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"

And again;

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Set us free from what? Lies being told about the Word of God/Christ from men who come in their name.

Eph. 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Lies about God in our mind)

The greatest danger for God's People isn't world governments, Atheists, Islam, etc. The greatest danger for the true believer, are lies about God in our mind.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (God's Definition, not mans)

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (Love God with all thy heart, and Love thy neighbor as thy self, as defined by the God of Abraham)

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, (God's Word is Truth) wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet ( protecting the mind) of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (Every Word)

You would think this topic would be discussed on forums like this again and again, to help each other in the battle against deception. But it isn't. No one, or at least few, want to even discuss doctrines of the religions of the land. Every self proclaimed "christian" on the planet claims to be right, and they disagree with every religion which doesn't adopt their doctrines. No one can be corrected, no one can be wrong. There is nothing but religious men, who come in Christ's Name, defending their religious doctrines despite the scriptures. (For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers,)

The Scriptures say satan deceives the whole world. I think I can accurately say that HE isn't speaking of the trees and goats, but of men. We all have been, and still have deceit within us. Many believe this verse is for everyone else but them, sadly. They claim belief, but only for some of God's Words. The Word of God, which became Flesh, is the Light to expose this deceit.

Jesus once said;

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Brothers, we all have deceit in us that is holding us captive to deception and falsehoods. To believe we don't, is to deny the Holy Scriptures. Jesus has provided the cleansing, given us the Words God gave Him to give us, and has shown us the way to Salvation. (I am the Way, walk even as I walk) Not living by the dictates of this religious franchise or that, not by the words of this famous theologian or that Minister of Righteousness. But as He and His Servant Paul teaches.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Let's come to HIS Light, that our thoughts and deeds may be made manifest, so we can see if they are from God or the religious spirit of this world. Let us take the doctrines of the Lands we are born into, and expose them to the Truth of the Life and Spirit of the Lord's Christ that we may know if they are from HIM or the "other religious voice" in the garden.

ralliann · Jul 18, 2020

Studyman said:
Jesus also warned of this very thing.

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I find these Word's of Jesus extraordinary. Of all the things HE could have warned HIS People about, I mean He could have warned of Jews, or Atheists, or Islam, or inappropriate content, or money, but HE didn't.

Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

Studyman said:
The greatest threat for a disciple of His to take heed of, according to His own Words, are men who come in His Name, who preach He is truly the Messiah.

Is this not the very definition of a modern "Christian"?

Not anymore than from the very beginning.
It is men who turn from the truth...

Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Ga 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Studyman · Jul 18, 2020

ralliann said:
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

Yes, the Jews said they taught the Law of Moses, but Jesus, Peter and Titus, the Law and Prophets, all teach us they did not. Zacharias did. Simeon did, Anna did. But most of the Jews had lost sight of "circumcision of the heart" Moses taught, and they still followed the old Atonement Priesthood "Works of the Law" they called the Law of Moses.

Not anymore than from the very beginning.
It is men who turn from the truth...

Well it is true the first "voice" to preach that God's Laws are a "yoke of Bondage" that makes men blind, was the serpent in the garden.

But to say the deception prophesied isn't any worse than before, is to deny the Scriptures.

2 Tim. 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Fascinating, first you post scriptures which warn of the false teaching and doctrines of Jews that were calling their doctrines and traditions, the Law of Moses. But now you imply by highlighter, that these Jews were really teaching the Law of Moses and Peter turned the new converts away.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Many preach today that the Jews were placing God's Laws on their fathers and they couldn't bear them. But the Holy Scriptures tell us it was the doctrines and traditions of men that caused Israel to go astray, not the Commandments of God. Fortunately Peter understood what religion they were tempting God with, when they said "circumcision and the Law of Moses".

So HE directed them away from these religious Jews, and towards the Scribes and Pharisees who read directly from Moses every Sabbath. Thereby directing them away from these Jews who claimed to be preaching the Law of Moses, and letting them learn about God directly from Moses. Just as Jesus directed Peter before HE was crucified.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they ( Pharisees, not God or Moses) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Peter knew what Yoke these Jews were trying to place on them, it was the same Yoke they placed on their fathers.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And how did this same John know they were not "of us"? Shall we not listen to all his words?

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This is A very important part of John's teaching regarding who didn't "continue with them" in walking, even as Jesus walked, and how they knew who they were.

Ga 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Yes, Peter got carried away. He is fortunate Paul was there to point his error out to him.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they (Jews) were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

It is one of many Jewish fables that the Law of Moses said a Jew couldn't eat with a Gentile. It actually taught the opposite.

As you posted;

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

There is no Jew or Gentile in the Christ of the Bible. Not the Christ as the Creator of the Law, nor the Christ after He came to earth in the person of Jesus.

Good scriptures which are perfectly relevant to the theme of this thread.

Thanks for adding them.

FaithWillDo · May 16, 2021

Dear Studyman,

Truth is very rare in this carnal world. Scripture says that Satan deceives the world and masquerades as an angel of light (Christ) as you pointed out. The "called out ones" are is favorite targets. Even the very Elect could be deceived by him if it were possible. So how is a believer know what is truth and what is deception??? All the scripture study in the world will not help if the reader is spiritually blind. The only solution is for Christ to give us "eyes that can see" and "ears that can hear".

So how does a believer come out from Satan's deceptions and have their spiritual blindness healed?

The only solution is for Christ to come to the believer and give them the Latter Rain. That is the same event the apostles experienced in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. Only then can a believer come out from Satan's deceptions and start consuming the true bread from Heaven (truth).

Once a believer has been given "eyes that can see", verses like the ones below will open up to them and they will understand why they were deceived in the first place.

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Truth is taught in bits and pieces - a little here and a little there and those pieces are inserted into scripture in ways that have nothing to do with context. Because of this, the pieces must be assembled much like a jigsaw puzzle before one can come away with a correct understanding.

God's truth is written this way so that mankind CANNOT understand the truth of God.

Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Then to make it even more difficult to understand, the Word of God is written in "another tongue" (spiritual language). Scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language. All this is done so that God's truth remains hidden from everyone except those whom Christ chooses to reveal it.

Christ said His words were for those with "ears that can hear" or "eyes that can see". These are "spiritual" eyes and ears that Christ gives His chosen Elect. Once a person receives these "eyes and ears", their Christian paradigm changes and scripture opens up. When this happens, context is not that important.

Even Paul taught in this manner.

1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here is an example:

The context of the verse below is when Judas came and kissed Christ in order for Christ to be taken. When Peter saw what was happening, Peter drew his sword and struck one of the servants of the high priest.

Then Christ said this to Peter:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Did Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, you will likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be FALSE. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Here the symbol of the Sword represents the Word of God and the Word of God is Christ. Christ is teaching on salvation - when Christ comes to us, He destroys our Old Man (carnal nature) and then gives life to a New Man in Christ.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of our carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents our new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of salvation is accomplished by the Word of God (Christ, Sword).

To correctly understand scripture, it must be understood spiritually. For this type of understanding to occur, we must first understand that the words used in scripture do not carry the same meaning as taught by man’s wisdom (1Cor 2:13). Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We must compare spiritual with spiritual. We are to also keep in mind that “the sum of God’s Word is truth”. Trying to literally understand a single verse of scripture within its own context will only produce confusion. Have you ever wondered why there are so many different denominational churches in the world? This is one of the reasons why.

So when does a believer receive these spiritual "eyes" so that they can understand truth? We don’t have to wonder because Christ gives us the answer. The only problem is that His answer is in spiritual language and only those who have spiritual eyes can understand the answer. It is a kind of "catch 22".

Here is the answer to when:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.

Joe

Studyman · May 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Studyman,

Truth is very rare in this carnal world. Scripture says that Satan deceives the world and masquerades as an angel of light (Christ) as you pointed out. The "called out ones" are is favorite targets. Even the very Elect could be deceived by him if it were possible. So how is a believer know what is truth and what is deception??? All the scripture study in the world will not help if the reader is spiritually blind. The only solution is for Christ to give us "eyes that can see" and "ears that can hear".

Dear FaithWillDo,

Thank you for your heart felt reply. The question you asked is one we should all consider, and one I have personally dealt with for over 25 years now.

How can we know if we are following the Path God foreordained that we should walk in, or are walking in the religious philosophies of man?

I agree that we do need "TRUTH" or as Jesus also calls it "eyes that can see" and "ears that can hear". But where does the Spirit of Truth come from, according to Scriptures?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So, How do we know the Commandments of Christ? Who is HE?

Jn. 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And Again;

Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So according to these and other Scriptures, before the Spirit of TRUTH is given, there is a directive given by the Christ to "keep His Commandments". Where are these found? In the Holy scriptures HE CREATED for our admonition.

It is so simple. Here is an example; If i am a thief, and I am studying the Bible, and I get to the Christ's Commandment "thou shall not Steal", will HE ask HIS Father to give me the Spirit of Truth if I continue to Steal? Of course not. As it is written "today if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts".

When the Christ sees the repentance ( me stop stealing) HE will know i have Faith. He will see me "denying myself" and Following Him. He will see my old man, the thief, become a new man, one who does not steal. This process continues on to Lying, rebelling against parents, adultery, God's Holy Sabbaths, etc.. As I repent and turn to Him in the things I CAN Change, and the things I CAN understand, He has promised to give me understanding of the "Hidden" things that only HE can reveal.

The reason why there are so many differing religions, is because men are not willing to Trust Him in the instructions they "CAN" obey. Paul explains it pretty good in Rom. 1.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

If a person is not willing to "deny themselves" and Follow the Christ, as they read about Him, then you are right. "All the scripture study in the world will not help if the reader is spiritually blind".

As Jesus says; " If I have told you earthly things, (Don't Steal, Don't cheat, don't kill, Remember My Sabbath, etc.) and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

There has always been a choice for men to make between the "other voice" in the garden, and the Word of God.

As the Christ inspired it is written;

Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I (Christ, the Rock of Israel) command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The KEY to the Mystery of Godliness is obedience to God. As Peter teaches.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Just as Jesus Promised.

FaithWillDo · May 16, 2021

Dear Studyman,
To really understand why mankind is deceived, we must go back to how God created mankind. Man's spiritual condition we have from birth is "flawed". It was NOT a mistake by God. We were made that way on purpose so that our "flesh" controls us. That is why we are carnally minded and why Christ in a physical body was not. Christ was spiritually perfect. In other words, Christ overcame this carnal world and never sinned whereas, mankind cannot. Mankind cannot possibly follow the commandants of God. If we could, then Christ would not need to give us a new spiritual birth.

It is not man's fault that we are made spiritually flawed and sin reigns in our mortal bodies. God is responsible for our spiritual condition that causes us to sin.

So why did God make us spiritually flawed?

Since this Creation is for God's purpose of producing His offspring (sons of God), He wants us to be "like" Him. And to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster (Satan) to destroy.

In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition we ALL become sinful, evil creatures. That is why scripture says:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Mankind's carnal nature is "hatred" towards God. And because of such, we can't understand Him (Truth) or want to seek His ways.

On the other hand, Satan was created to fed upon the dust of the ground (Gen 3:14). The "dust of the ground" represents our carnal nature and that is why Satan works to destroy and deceive mankind.

When Adam and Eve were created spiritually flawed, they quickly become carnally minded. God put Satan in the Garden to do his work of tempting Eve so that she would sin. Eve could not have possibly done anything else but fall to his temptations. Eve even displayed the three causes of sin BEFORE she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God, of course knew this and it was His plan all along for Adam and Eve to sin. And just as Adam and Eve sinned, so do all of their offspring. Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would experience evil. With God, "evil" is a tool that He uses for His good and righteous purposes. In this case, His purpose is to create His offspring who know good and evil.

But since mankind's sin spiritually separates us from God and God wants children, He created a pathway for mankind to be restored to Himself. To accomplish that purpose, God the Father sent Christ:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition, NO PERSON can be saved. We have all sinned and the penalty of sin is death (not eternal hell). The only solution is for mankind to be "born again" from the death we must pay. Our spiritually flawed vessel must be destroyed and made into a new spiritually perfect vessel.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In our created spiritually flawed condition, we all reject God and cannot "choose" Him. There is nothing good within mankind. The only way we can "choose" Christ is for Christ to individually come to us and change us from within. He does this by giving us the Early Rain of the Spirit. When Christ does this work within us, we ALL fall to the ground and call Him "Lord" (just as Paul "typed" for us on the Damascus Road). There are no exceptions.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Herein lies the GREAT mystery of the church (the called out ones): The Early Rain that a new "called out" believer receives is only an "earnest amount" of the Holy Spirit. Because of such, we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) and are still controlled by our carnal natures. Satan then comes to us and deceives us. Satan masquerades as an "angel of light (Christ) and causes us to accept his false truth (Mat 13:33, Wheat and Tares parable). Since we are deceived, we believe that we are receiving the truth of God. Christ explained this process below:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Evil spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". This worsened spiritual condition is called the Man of Sin by Paul.

After the Early Rain, our deadly head wound that came from the sword (Word of God) of Christ is healed. We then remain a part of the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. This Beast represents mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded spiritual condition. At this point, we have truly "fallen away" and have returned to our own "works" for our salvation. This is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death. From this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief to differentiate us from why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why we are not. We falsely believe that we made the right "choice" from our supposed "free will". But in truth, we did not. It was Christ's work within us that caused us to accept Him as "Lord".

What I have stated above is part of the pathway that leads to destruction. We ALL MUST and WILL travel it.

Since a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance, they will remain in this lost, spiritually worsened condition until either they physically die or Christ comes to them a second time. This is typed for us by Joshua and Caleb and Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years.

If a person has been "chosen from the foundation of the world", then Christ will not let them die in their sins. He will come again to them and give them the Latter Rain. It is ONLY then that they will come out from Satan's deceptions. The Latter Rain is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room and it is the same event Paul "typed" for us when he received the Holy Spirit after being "in bed" for three days in Damascus. THIS IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THAT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. When Christ comes this second time, He comes as a thief in the night to destroy the Man of Sin whom we have become. When this happens, the path that leads to destruction is complete and the New Man who is born begins traveling the Narrow Path that leads to Life.

What I have stated above is a very abbreviated summary of how Christ saves one of His chosen Elect. They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. But Christ will NOT leave the rest of mankind to rot in the field. In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work and bring in the full harvest of mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God does not fail and He never makes mistakes. What mankind is experiencing is how God reproduces Himself in His children. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people. Why? Because we are made spiritually blind and cannot know what God is doing until we receive the Latter Rain.

Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is His "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. We will all be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is “when” we complete the path and God decided that from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.

I could have included many scriptures/parables that further support and explain what I have stated above but then this post would have turned into a book.

I am willing to answer any specific questions you might have.

Joe

Studyman · May 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is His "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. We will all be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is “when” we complete the path and God decided that from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.

I could have included many scriptures/parables that further support and explain what I have stated above but then this post would have turned into a book.

I am willing to answer any specific questions you might have.

Joe

This is a very popular religious philosophy in the land I was born into. As a servant of the Biblical God, and His Son, I have come to understand that I should listen to God, and not the many differing winds of doctrine that are being taught by the many differing mainstream religious franchises of this world.

The religious philosophy that I will be granted the gift of eternal life regardless of my choices is certainly appealing, and I'm sure will attract many followers.

But I have escaped the religions of this land, and their influence, and will not be converted away from the God of the Bible and His Word back into their snare. As the Jesus of the Bible teaches me "Man shall Live By Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".

I appreciate your zeal, and would love to discuss and examine Scriptures.

Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

But if your religious philosophy doesn't include voluntary obedience to the Father, then I'm afraid you have been led astray.

FaithWillDo · May 16, 2021

Dear Studyman,
You should go back and read my posts again. I certainly don't believe as you are saying.

Scripture says our choices are controlled by God.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

When Christ decides it is time for us to "confess Jesus as Lord", He will change us from within so that we willingly make that choice. It is not a forced choice but in our present spiritually flawed and carnally minded condition, we CANNOT make that choice for Christ. We need a new spiritual nature FIRST and that new nature comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Until Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit, we will ALWAYS reject Christ.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Our decision to accept Christ as our "Lord" is only possible because Christ has given us the Holy Spirit. In our created spiritual condition, we won't even ask Christ for the gift of the Holy Spirit. If we do, then we already have the gift and just don't know it.

Our salvation is the work of Christ. It is not our work lest any man should boast.

"Voluntary obedience to the Father" ONLY comes to us AFTER we receive the Holy Spirit. Do you believe there is anything good within yourself (from birth) that would make you be obedient to the Father? According to scripture there is absolutely nothing good within any man. We are totally depended on Christ coming to us and doing His work within us.

If He doesn't come to a person in their lifetime, they will die in their sins and there was nothing they could have done about it. They simply were not "chosen from the foundation of the world" to be saved as a "firstfruit" of Christ's harvest of mankind. But Christ will not forsake them. In the final age, He will come to them with the same gifts He gave His Elect, the firstfruits.

HERE'S PROOF FROM PAUL'S CONVERSION:

Scripture says that Paul's conversion was the pattern we all must follow to be saved.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

For that reason, Paul's conversion is very detailed. Here is what the pattern is:

Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

These first events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to enter the Church (called out).

The key parts of Paul’s calling are underlined in the verses above and are explained below verse by verse.

Verse 3: And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

When an individual is “called out” from this world to follow Christ, Christ will appear to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ as is commonly taught in the Church. If Christ does appear to us, it is a spiritual event that happens within us (Luk 17:21). Christ cannot be seen with human eyes.
Verses 4 & 5: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

When Christ spiritually appears to an unbeliever, they immediately fall to the earth. This symbolizes their carnality and their having risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell on the earth. Since the new believer remains carnal and spiritually blind, they cannot recognize the “voice” that calls to them. They must rely on being told who He is. Since Paul answers back to the voice as “Lord”, we know that this event is the Early Rain of the Spirit upon the individual (1Cor 12:3). We call Him Lord but lack the ability to know Him for ourselves. He remains hidden from our understanding.
Verse 6: And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

From our carnal perspective, we believe that we must produce good works to please the Lord and that is why Paul immediately asks “what wilt thou have me to do?” The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (Church leaders) will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer “falls away”.

Verse 7: And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

No one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This appearance by Christ is only for the person who has been “called” by Christ. It is a completely spiritual event – meaning it happens “between our ears”.

Verse 8: And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

After Paul opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. It goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines of the Church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves. They are forced to follow other men (the teachings of the carnally minded, spiritually blind Church).

Verse 9: And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Paul was blind and would not eat or drink for 3 days. Paul’s time of blindness and lack of eating and drinking for 3 days represents the time of Tribulation that each new believer must endure. It is the time when we “fall away” (2Thes 2:3). The new believer has now been "called out" but has no ability to know the Truth. Since Paul cannot receive the true bread from Heaven while in this spiritually blind state, the scripture says that Paul does not “eat or drink” during the 3 days. It is at this point that the new believer is deceived by Satan becomes a Man of Sin. He is now “fallen away” and tries to please God through works of the flesh. Just the simple belief in the Doctrine of “Free Will” will cause a believer to fall away. By believing in that doctrine, we take credit for making the “right choice” to follow Christ when in fact, we are not responsible for that decision – Christ is. He gave us that gift of faith before we repented (Just as Paul “typed” for us on the road to Damascus). Our salvation (every step of the way) is 100% the work of Christ.

The second set of verses below represent Christ’s second appearance to Paul (after the 3 days are fulfilled) and Paul’s rising to dwell with Christ in Heaven.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Here are my associated comments with the underlined portions of the above scriptures.

Verse 15: But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current carnal state and that Paul will bear His name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.

Verse 16: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

When we truly follow Christ in this world, we will suffer for it, no exceptions (Rom 8:17 & John 15:20).

Verse 17: And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Ananias symbolizes Christ who will come to His Chosen to give them sight (spiritual understanding) and the Holy Spirit.

Verse 18: And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

When Christ comes a second time to those who have been Called & Chosen, among the gifts that He gives them are spiritual understanding, spiritual life and the Holy Spirit. This event is called the Latter Rain of the Spirit/Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Verse 19: And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

After these “gifts” from Christ, Paul “eats” of the true bread from heaven (Truth) and is spiritually strengthened.

Once Paul receives his nourishment from Christ, the Truth destroys Paul’s religious carnal nature (the Great city Babylon/Sodom/Egypt/earthly Jerusalem /Man of Sin) which taught him to approach God through Works of the Law.

This is when Saul was "born again" and his named changed to Paul, the New Man in Christ.

Joe

Studyman · May 17, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Studyman,
You should go back and read my posts again. I certainly don't believe as you are saying.

Scripture says our choices are controlled by God.

Yes, "Our Choices" are controlled by God. We don't create the Choices, we are just instructed to make a choice from the Choices God created and has set before us.

Duet. 30:15 See, I (Christ) have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

One popular religious practice I have seen, is for men to read or hear a doctrine, believe in it, and then pick whatever scriptures can be used to promote it. Even satan quotes some of God's Word.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

When we "choose" Life as we are instructed, as His Word's I posted plainly say, and cling to God, then it is His Voice/Word/Spirit/influence that directs our hearts and thoughts. When we go our own way, then it is the "other" voice/word/spirit/influence that establishes our hearts and thoughts. You see how God's Message becomes clear when you include "Every Word" in your consideration as Jesus instructed.

So then when a man considers the first dozen sentences in Prov. 16, the religious philosophy that you are promoting, by only quoted one sentence, starts to fizzle out, and the Duet. 30 verse, that you don't even acknowledge exists, is confirmed even more..

So then Proverbs 16 goes from supporting your religious philosophy, to exposing it, and agreeing with Duet 30, where the God of the Bible tells me HE gives us a Choice, but it is up to us to make it..

You are promoting Calvinism here. A religious philosophy whereby God's Children are picked by some secret "Holy Lottery", but in the end it doesn't matter because the teaching that God "Who will render to every man according to his deeds" is a lie, and if we aren't picked by the Lottery, we will be picked in the end anyway.

So then the very first deception, that is, when satan convinced Eve that God lied to her and she shall "surly not die", is actually true. That satan was telling the truth and it was God who lied to Eve.

Calvinism is just another continence of this ancient religious philosophy. The key to escape this deceptive religious philosophy is to place your Faith in the Jesus of the Bible, and not Calvin or the Pope, or other self proclaimed "ministers of righteousness". "Man shall live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God". satan quoted some of God's word, but can not use them all, because to do so would expose who he really is.

We are also protected from the wiles of the devil when we wield the "Sword of the Lord", that is, the Word of God. But it is essential to consider them all, and not cherry pick to promote this religious franchise, or that religious philosophy.

I'm not interested in Calvinism or any form of Calvinism. I also know how difficult it is to let go of popular religious traditions. The Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time showed me this.

When it comes down to who I believe, the religious philosophy promoted by Calvin and his followers, or the Christ of the Bible, I "choose" the Christ of the Bible.

Thanks for the discussion.

FaithWillDo · May 17, 2021

Dear Studyman,
I do not hold to any of the teachings of man and certainly not Calvin.

You are STILL not understanding what I am saying about "choices". This is probably happening because you are lumping me in with Calvin and just assuming my beliefs match to this false system of belief.

Did you really make a free will "choice" to accept Christ of the Bible or are you still deceived by the false teachings of Satan?

Scripture says mankind (in our created spiritual condition) does not have the ability to "choose" Christ unless Christ comes to us FIRST and gives us the Holy Spirit. He chooses us and not the other way around.

Here again is what scripture teaches:

God loves 100% of mankind and will save 100% of mankind. He is not a respecter of persons which your beliefs make Him out to be. All have sinned and all will receive the penalty of sin which is death. But the death we must pay is a spiritual death. Our flawed spiritual makeup must be permanently destroyed and replaced with God's perfect spiritual makeup (the Holy Spirit). This is conversion.

Christ was sent by the Father to do this work of conversion within each person. Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks is God's timeline to do this work. For Christ to accomplish His work, He uses TWO ages of time. In this present age, He is ONLY saving the Firstfruits of the harvest of mankind. They are persons who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are blessed to suit God's own purposes and not because of anything they have ever done. They were not even alive when God chose them. And if they had been alive at the time He chose them, He still would not have chosen them because of anything they might have done. This chosen group is very small. Most of mankind is not even "called out" from the world but "many" are. And from this group of "many", a "few" have been chosen. They will be the "heirs" of the promise, the Fruitfruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The spiritual progression taught in scripture is unbelievers dwell in the sea (100% of mankind). If the unbeliever is "called out" (Early Rain), they rise to dwell on the earth. If they are also "chosen", then at the time of the Latter Rain, they will rise up to dwell with Christ in Heaven. It takes the Early and Latter Rain to be saved. All mankind will follow this pathway, only the timing of when a person completes the journey varies.

The Chosen FirstFruits rise to dwell in Heaven in this age but all others will have to wait until the final age to be saved. Christ is not working to save anyone else at this time. And because our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, mankind cannot make a "choice" on when they will be saved. If we could contribute anything from our supposed "free will", then our salvation would be a mix of our works and the works of Christ. This belief is what causes the sin that leads to death - the sin of "falling away" (back to works). This sin of falling away happens to everyone who is called out, no exceptions.

Our spiritually flawed spiritual makeup prefers the Old Covenant rather than the New Covenant:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Until we are "born again" at the time of the Latter Rain, we believe our works (even if it is only taking credit for our decision to accept Christ) are needed to make us worthy of our salvation. We have no "free will" ability to decide differently - it is built into our carnal nature. And because of this belief, we think that those who reject Christ are worthy of a literal place called hell where they will be tormented in fire for all eternity. We believe that we were wiser or smarter than those who remained lost - and that belief justifies why they go to hell and we go to heaven. But if that were true, then God IS a respecter of persons and He is not a God of love at all. What loving purpose could God have for tormenting someone in fire for all eternity?

The Doctrine of Hell is a lie from Satan. Christ is loving, merciful, longsuffering and is NOT willing that any should perish. If He is not willing, then who can stop Him from completing the work of the Father?

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

But with those who are chosen, Christ will come to them a second time (like a thief in the night) while they are in this fallen away, spiritually darkened condition. When Christ comes, He gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. No matter how great and strong one believes their power to choose the timing of their salvation is, they cannot make Christ come to them. They MUST wait on the second coming of the Lord and He has already chosen those who will receive His second visitation in this age.

This pathway of salvation is taught in many places of scripture (Old and New Testament both). Mankind has no ability to change this pathway God has laid down for us to travel. The Chosen complete the pathway now before they physically die but all others will have to wait until the final age.

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ (the Firstfruits).

Your doctrine of self-determination is a lie from Satan.

Joe

EmethAlethia · Jul 4, 2021

First, I love what you have to say. I find it interesting that there is no group of people who believe themselves to be God's people who believe they fall on the wrong side of this issue:

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Add yet this is the same lost "Many" discussed prior.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

In other words, the vast masses of those who believe themselves to be Christians are going to miss it. But everyone, from the Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Mormons ... every single group knows they love truth and have truth. Interestingly every last group does exactly the same Methodology to hold fast to "what they want to believe" as truth. regardless of the belief group, we all:

1.) Gather whatever we can “use” to prove what we “want to believe” to be truth.

2.) Accumulate all evidence we feel might prove all opposing views incorrect.

3.) Assume our beliefs are unquestionable truth, and therefore all correct interpretations of all valid data must support, or at least not negate, our infallible beliefs.

4.) Reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate … anything that doesn’t seem to fit with our views, Why? Our beliefs are “Fact” Valid data interpreted correctly can’t contradict the facts.

5.) Gather all the other experiences, feelings, data … to solidify our beliefs such as signs, wonders, spiritual gifts or facts about our belief group. Things like: we have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… Include anything that adds assurance that your views and belief group have the most truth.

Contrast that Methodology (Methodology One: The Methodology of Belief Groups) with this:

1.) We Avoid “Methodology One”(Mentioned prior): Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them, is not the same as, “Proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and holding fast to what is good/true.” Look at that 2Th. 2:10-13 passage. Paul said that the lost in the end times failed, and Paul used the same standard and judged that those he was writing to were held to the same standard but passed the test and received a love of the truth and were true Christians making this a timeless truth.

2.) Open-mindedness: We remain open-minded to altering any, or all of our beliefs in the light of the fullness of the word of God rightly divided. All belief groups believe in being open minded … “until” you accept their beliefs. Then they believe in being as closed as possible. If you love truth, you will continually remain open-minded to altering any or all of your beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “might” pertain to the topic at hand is rightly divided. How many passages are there about closing your eyes and ears lest you see or hear. Look at Methodology One again. What is it designed to do?

3.) Habitual ongoing Labor/ Getting Every Piece of Data that Might Pertain: If you Love Truth, you, personally, must become a manual laborer and keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. Yes, that’s every piece of data that proves all your current beliefs false that the opponents to your beliefs have gathered, and every fact that might prove beliefs you believe to be wrong to be truth on that topic as well. We are commanded to be habitual, ongoing, never stopping laborers who are approved by God and won’t stand ashamed before Him. How do we determine what that outcome will be? We habitually “Cut-straight” every single piece of the word of God that “might” apply to the topic at hand. This is way different than looking for passages of scripture to prove true what we want to teach on a topic.

CONSISTENCY IN INTERPRETATION: If God, God’s word, and God’s people are not consistent in what they say and do and DON’T SAY AND DON’T DO, then looking for truth in the bible is a waste of time. Holding to consistency includes:

4.) Consistency with Background Context: Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context.

5.) Consistency of Meaning of words/root words/figures of speech: Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, and figures of speech consistent with their usage throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament, pick a meaning fully fitting everywhere the same word, root word, and figure of speech is used.

6.) Consistency with the Surrounding Discussion: Hold to a meaning consistent with the entire discussion surrounding the verse or passage being considered, hold to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made …

7.) Consistency with conscience: Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise and your interpretation results in believing God does what would be sin for us, your interpretation is wrong. i.e., there are no illustrations in the Bible where God says He commits adultery. If your chosen meaning for the word adultery would make God an adulterer, and by His own admission, you picked the wrong meaning for the word.

8.) God, God’s People and God’s Word are 100% consistent: Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. Any inconsistencies, are proof of incorrect beliefs/definitions.

9.) Always apply logic, reason, and rational thinking: Pick an interpretation fully fitting with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., if the writer spent a whole chapter saying all gifts are equal and necessary, that none are greater than any others, … do not choose an interpretation for the very next verse that would command us to desire what God spent the previous 30 verses saying doesn’t exist, and that you can’t get, period, regardless of your desire. “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts everything prior. Look for the “other” possible meaning. Note: There is one.

10.) Start with the Easiest/Clearest … data on the topic: Interpret the clearest, easiest understood, most straightforward data/passages first—then the more complex or difficult passages. The complex, convoluted, and difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.

11.) It ALL fits together: Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fit with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything gathered (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything in #4-10 above, you have the wrong meaning, and you are forcing the scriptures to fit what you want to believe “as” truth.

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and hold fast to what is good/true. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

13.) It’s all on You! Trusting others to get to truth “for” you, is like trusting others to have a relationship with your wife / husband / kids “for” you. It cannot be done. Your failure to keep on habitually doing as God commands all His people to keep on habitually doing, proves you have gathered enough using Methodology One to hold fast to what you want to believe and fall short of 2Th. 2:10-12

I always tell everyone: Understand, “Agreement with me might only make us both wrong.” Why? Because it's true. It only takes one verse I missed, in context, cut straight, to change my beliefs.

This verse is in the present tense meaning ongoing continuous action:

“Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and always hold fast to what is good/true.” If you love truth, and not a specific belief, you will constantly look for and reevaluate everything you can find, and yes, you will be willing to alter any and all of your beliefs to fit what the fullness of the word of God really says and means with nothing left out, and nothing distorted to try and prove “what you want to believe” true.

Starting from beliefs, and then going to those who have the same ones to get all the passages they use to prove their beliefs to be fact, opposing beliefs false, and to understand how they interpret everything to hold fast to those beliefs always results in the affirmation of those beliefs. If your goal is to do something like that, pick the beliefs you want to have first. If you want to be Mormon gather their data and use their interpretations. If you want to be a Calvinist use their passages, Roman Catholic ... you get the idea.

Everyone gets what they really want. That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves the truth or their beliefs. But the "Many on the Broad path of destruction in Mat. 7 is the same many that believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior at the end of the chapter to whom Jesus said, "Depart from Me ye who work iniquity for I never knew you."

Everyone using Methodology One, while they will get an unshakeable, unquestionable belief that they have the truth, are really seeing God at work hardening them into what they want to believe because they just love what they want to believe. Everyone picks one, and the Methodology you use proves what camp you are in.

Studyman · Jul 4, 2021

EmethAlethia said:
First, I love what you have to say. I find it interesting that there is no group of people who believe themselves to be God's people who believe they fall on the wrong side of this issue:

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Add yet this is the same lost "Many" discussed prior.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

In other words, the vast masses of those who believe themselves to be Christians are going to miss it. But everyone, from the Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Mormons ... every single group knows they love truth and have truth. Interestingly every last group does exactly the same Methodology to hold fast to "what they want to believe" as truth. regardless of the belief group, we all:

1.) Gather whatever we can “use” to prove what we “want to believe” to be truth.

2.) Accumulate all evidence we feel might prove all opposing views incorrect.

3.) Assume our beliefs are unquestionable truth, and therefore all correct interpretations of all valid data must support, or at least not negate, our infallible beliefs.

4.) Reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate … anything that doesn’t seem to fit with our views, Why? Our beliefs are “Fact” Valid data interpreted correctly can’t contradict the facts.

5.) Gather all the other experiences, feelings, data … to solidify our beliefs such as signs, wonders, spiritual gifts or facts about our belief group. Things like: we have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… Include anything that adds assurance that your views and belief group have the most truth.

Contrast that Methodology (Methodology One: The Methodology of Belief Groups) with this:

1.) We Avoid “Methodology One”(Mentioned prior): Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them, is not the same as, “Proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and holding fast to what is good/true.” Look at that 2Th. 2:10-13 passage. Paul said that the lost in the end times failed, and Paul used the same standard and judged that those he was writing to were held to the same standard but passed the test and received a love of the truth and were true Christians making this a timeless truth.

2.) Open-mindedness: We remain open-minded to altering any, or all of our beliefs in the light of the fullness of the word of God rightly divided. All belief groups believe in being open minded … “until” you accept their beliefs. Then they believe in being as closed as possible. If you love truth, you will continually remain open-minded to altering any or all of your beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “might” pertain to the topic at hand is rightly divided. How many passages are there about closing your eyes and ears lest you see or hear. Look at Methodology One again. What is it designed to do?

3.) Habitual ongoing Labor/ Getting Every Piece of Data that Might Pertain: If you Love Truth, you, personally, must become a manual laborer and keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. Yes, that’s every piece of data that proves all your current beliefs false that the opponents to your beliefs have gathered, and every fact that might prove beliefs you believe to be wrong to be truth on that topic as well. We are commanded to be habitual, ongoing, never stopping laborers who are approved by God and won’t stand ashamed before Him. How do we determine what that outcome will be? We habitually “Cut-straight” every single piece of the word of God that “might” apply to the topic at hand. This is way different than looking for passages of scripture to prove true what we want to teach on a topic.

CONSISTENCY IN INTERPRETATION: If God, God’s word, and God’s people are not consistent in what they say and do and DON’T SAY AND DON’T DO, then looking for truth in the bible is a waste of time. Holding to consistency includes:

4.) Consistency with Background Context: Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context.

5.) Consistency of Meaning of words/root words/figures of speech: Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, and figures of speech consistent with their usage throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament, pick a meaning fully fitting everywhere the same word, root word, and figure of speech is used.

6.) Consistency with the Surrounding Discussion: Hold to a meaning consistent with the entire discussion surrounding the verse or passage being considered, hold to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made …

7.) Consistency with conscience: Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise and your interpretation results in believing God does what would be sin for us, your interpretation is wrong. i.e., there are no illustrations in the Bible where God says He commits adultery. If your chosen meaning for the word adultery would make God an adulterer, and by His own admission, you picked the wrong meaning for the word.

8.) God, God’s People and God’s Word are 100% consistent: Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. Any inconsistencies, are proof of incorrect beliefs/definitions.

9.) Always apply logic, reason, and rational thinking: Pick an interpretation fully fitting with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., if the writer spent a whole chapter saying all gifts are equal and necessary, that none are greater than any others, … do not choose an interpretation for the very next verse that would command us to desire what God spent the previous 30 verses saying doesn’t exist, and that you can’t get, period, regardless of your desire. “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts everything prior. Look for the “other” possible meaning. Note: There is one.

10.) Start with the Easiest/Clearest … data on the topic: Interpret the clearest, easiest understood, most straightforward data/passages first—then the more complex or difficult passages. The complex, convoluted, and difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.

11.) It ALL fits together: Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fit with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything gathered (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything in #4-10 above, you have the wrong meaning, and you are forcing the scriptures to fit what you want to believe “as” truth.

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and hold fast to what is good/true. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

13.) It’s all on You! Trusting others to get to truth “for” you, is like trusting others to have a relationship with your wife / husband / kids “for” you. It cannot be done. Your failure to keep on habitually doing as God commands all His people to keep on habitually doing, proves you have gathered enough using Methodology One to hold fast to what you want to believe and fall short of 2Th. 2:10-12

I always tell everyone: Understand, “Agreement with me might only make us both wrong.” Why? Because it's true. It only takes one verse I missed, in context, cut straight, to change my beliefs.

This verse is in the present tense meaning ongoing continuous action:

“Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and always hold fast to what is good/true.” If you love truth, and not a specific belief, you will constantly look for and reevaluate everything you can find, and yes, you will be willing to alter any and all of your beliefs to fit what the fullness of the word of God really says and means with nothing left out, and nothing distorted to try and prove “what you want to believe” true.

Starting from beliefs, and then going to those who have the same ones to get all the passages they use to prove their beliefs to be fact, opposing beliefs false, and to understand how they interpret everything to hold fast to those beliefs always results in the affirmation of those beliefs. If your goal is to do something like that, pick the beliefs you want to have first. If you want to be Mormon gather their data and use their interpretations. If you want to be a Calvinist use their passages, Roman Catholic ... you get the idea.

Everyone gets what they really want. That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves the truth or their beliefs. But the "Many on the Broad path of destruction in Mat. 7 is the same many that believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior at the end of the chapter to whom Jesus said, "Depart from Me ye who work iniquity for I never knew you."

Everyone using Methodology One, while they will get an unshakeable, unquestionable belief that they have the truth, are really seeing God at work hardening them into what they want to believe because they just love what they want to believe. Everyone picks one, and the Methodology you use proves what camp you are in.

Thank you for this thought filled reply. It is good advice. Yes, as the Holy Scriptures tell us, the deceiver's first deception is to convince men they "shall surely not die" regardless of the Words of their Creator. Whole religions spend fast amounts of time, effort and money to convince folks of this one thing.

Of course to believe it, I must first discount the God of the Bible as a liar, and competent, and a respecter of persons. Something I can not do.

Those men of Jesus time didn't have the Oracles of God located in their own home, in their own hands, in their own mind. They were forced to rely on the Levite Priests and Scribes for "Instruction in Righteousness?. But as promised in the New Covenant, we don't need to depend on another to teach us, for we all shall know Him. And here we are with God's oracles in our own homes, by the billions. Most Everyone has direct access to God's Word.

So your point is a very good one. If a man truly hungers and thirsts for Righteousness, we have God's Word to guide us to it. With Jesus paving the way. If you truly want to "know God", we have direct access to His Word.

But if we are only interested in walking in the traditions of our fathers, or belonging to a giant religious social club, or a feel good religious franchise, God has also provided the "Other Voice" in the Garden to facilitate this as well.

A Choice as HE Himself declares, "Eternal Life or Eternal Death.

It is truly rare to hear someone who seems to understand what is become painfully obvious to me after 30 years of study. I am thankful to God for the post, and although God has told me in His Word there are others who believe in Him, I sometimes wonder where they are.

I like how you presented what I believe to be Truth about Scriptures. They should all flow together like a living stream. It is true there are some translations and small errors from differing translations. But if a person considers "Every word of God", these errors can be easily exposed. Coupled by the earnest desire to find truth, and the obedience humbling oneself to God brings about, He reveals Himself to those who truly Seek Him.

I find is easier to pick a popular religious doctrine and the scripture used to support it, and then do an exhaustive review of the Scriptures, as you have also advised..

For instance, the popular religious doctrine of this world that Jesus nailed "God's handwriting of ordinances" that were against us, or that the "Enmity" of "Law contained in ordinances" were God's, that was nailed to the cross.

When even marginal study shows no evidence that what was nailed to the cross came from God at all.

There are literally hundreds of these little introductions of Leaven, little falsehoods, deceptions, cleaver, and subtle, but change the message of the Holy Scriptures 180 degrees. To the point where what is left is a religion preaching doctrines which doesn't even resemble the Gospel of Christ, except they preach it in His Name.

Good for you to see this. Please don't hesitate to jump into a conversation here. I long for honest, unbiased examination of Scriptures. All of them, and would be delighted to share what they have shown me, and am eager to see another perspective. There are 10 in our small flock here, and we have many wonderful conversations about God's Word. Some comfortable, some not so much. But we all seem to have that one thing in common. The continued unbiased search and acceptance of Biblical Truth.

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply.

EmethAlethia · Jul 5, 2021

Studyman said:
Thank you for this thought filled reply. It is good advice. Yes, as the Holy Scriptures tell us, the deceiver's first deception is to convince men they "shall surely not die" regardless of the Words of their Creator. Whole religions spend fast amounts of time, effort and money to convince folks of this one thing... As you say, there are no shortage of people who believe their views are right on every edge of the belief board. I spent years trying to figure out why people who all claim to be Christian can believe everything under the sun to be true while others hold to the same things being lies from the pit of hell.

So your point is a very good one. If a man truly hungers and thirsts for Righteousness, we have God's Word to guide us to it. With Jesus paving the way. If you truly want to "know God", we have direct access to His Word. Look at where we all start. It's not like anyone is short the opportunity to know God, to have truth, but most really don't want it.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (It's not that anyone can say they don't know. They hold it down, shove it to the back of their most deepest thoughts. They know it and reject it.) Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (Rom. 3:3-4 says God will give everyone a chance to judge Him by His word. There is no escaping the fact that all "could" respond and love truth more than their beliefs. It is a conscious choice.) 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (And it isn't a vague thing. It's some of God's greatest attributes and they each have clearly seen these things.) being understood (But not just seen. They understand EXACTLY what they are seeing.) through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (There is no excuse possible.) 21 For even though they knew God, (The clincher. They knew God. Gnosko, experiential knowledge, not just head knowledge. )they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (They hav e to make up reasons for rejecting what they both know and have experienced ... and if these things are not 100% true, God Himself will have fallen short when He is judged ... but ... like that is going to happen...) 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, (Most definitely) 23 and exchanged (Another act of will. Another choice. Another eternally deadly choice.) the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. (The God of most men is their own desires, the environment, ... ) 24 Therefore(Because of the choices they make. "For this reason." ) God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged (Another conscious choice. Men don't naturally arrive at the conclusion there is no God. They choose to reject, suppress, exchange ... the truth of God for a lie.) the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (They serve themselves.) 26 For this reason (Because of these choices they keep making God responds to those real choices. No real choice = no just rewards or punishments. Can we justly punish a 6 month old for dirtying their diapers? No. They have no choice. These people not only have a choice. They start from a position of experiential knowledge of God Himself.) God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (Another choice. One bad one after another.) God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; (Does this sound like our world or not?) 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, (The sad part. Even though they know the consequences are coming, they choose the passing pleasures of sin for a season over a relationship with a God who loves them died for them, and gave every last one of them every possible opportunity.) that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

But if we are only interested in walking in the traditions of our fathers, or belonging to a giant religious social club, or a feel good religious franchise, God has also provided the "Other Voice" in the Garden to facilitate this as well. He does. Every man and woman will get exactly what he or she wants... and is willing to habitually work for. I find it interesting that no one has to teach a true Christian to hunger and thirst for His Word. They cry out for it as new born babes cry out for food. Why? They truly have tasted that the Lord is gracious. They have the opposite response to what is listed above.

A Choice as HE Himself declares, "Eternal Life or Eternal Death." And you would think it would be an easy one... but ... in many cases what is true and right conflicts with what we truly want to believe, so most go to scripture to justify what they desire to believe rather than go through the difficult process of ferreting out the truth, and the more difficult process of having their belief groups reject them for well justified differences in doctrine from traditional conclusions.

It is truly rare to hear someone who seems to understand what is become painfully obvious to me after 30 years of study. I am thankful to God for the post, and although God has told me in His Word there are others who believe in Him, I sometimes wonder where they are. I also am grateful. Few even read what is said. Fewer yet bother to look at all of the passages that might apply to a topic before they respond. Most just share what they "feel" to be right. There are so few that are noble minded, the keep on continuously proving all things on all sides of every issue, and are willing to alter their beliefs to fit. Most alter the scriptures to fit their views. Thank you. You are one of the few.

I like how you presented what I believe to be Truth about Scriptures. They should all flow together like a living stream. It is true there are some translations and small errors from differing translations. But if a person considers "Every word of God", these errors can be easily exposed. Coupled by the earnest desire to find truth, and the obedience humbling oneself to God brings about, He reveals Himself to those who truly Seek Him. If everything doesn't fit with the fullness of the word of God, with everything that is said, "rightly divided" in such a way that it makes God, God's people and God's word 100% consistent in all they say and do, and all they don't say and don't do, we have the wrong interpretation. We are forcing the word of God to try and support a belief that we love more than we love truth. Truth is difficult, problematic, and those who love their beliefs are not going to respond well to it. Mat. 7:6 Which is why I long for more conversations with you.

I find is easier to pick a popular religious doctrine and the scripture used to support it, and then do an exhaustive review of the Scriptures, as you have also advised... Not to mention contradicting doctrines popular for centuries does not gain you many friends. LOL

For instance, the popular religious doctrine of this world that Jesus nailed "God's handwriting of ordinances" that were against us, or that the "Enmity" of "Law contained in ordinances" were God's, that was nailed to the cross. The law is holy, righteous and good. It is for lawbreakers. Ultimately it is for the lost who roam this planet, not that the saved can't choose poorly(1Co. 5) and receive consequences for their choices while they are here on this earth so they don't have to partake of the next judgment. (1Co. 11:27-32) And, as it says in Hebrews, if you are without discipline of which every child is made a partaker of you are not His sons. the word "bastards" is used.

When even marginal study shows no evidence that what was nailed to the cross came from God at all.
The things which demand God's just punishment were paid for their. What we have each chosen to do contrary to His will, the choices we still make, wretched men that we are, those ... the curse ...Jesus the just and Holy, took the curse of the holy and righteous law for me and paid with every stripe, every thorn, whips made of lead and glass, railroad spikes through the ankles and wrists... while I was still His enemy and hostile to Him ... OH SO HOSTILE... He loved Me and died for Me.

There are literally hundreds of these little introductions of Leaven, little falsehoods, deceptions, cleaver, and subtle, but change the message of the Holy Scriptures 180 degrees. To the point where what is left is a religion preaching doctrines which doesn't even resemble the Gospel of Christ, except they preach it in His Name. I would love to go here. Examine things I may have missed, truth's I may not have seen, passages whose meanings I may have passed over.

Good for you to see this. Absolutely. It is good that lovers of truth, and not beliefs have an opportunity to find each other. As rare as a beautiful rose blooming at the North Pole. Please don't hesitate to jump into a conversation here. No hesitation my friend. But few in the forum will understand. It's not about the beliefs. It's about truth, no matter what beliefs have to change, no matter what perceptions and areas of our lives that need to be altered. If we love truth and someone shares what destroys our beliefs, we win. We exchange lies for truth. If our faith remains, so be it. But as I say, your agreement with me might only mean we are both wrong. But few long to see where their beliefs fall short. I long for honest, unbiased examination of Scriptures. Crying out for it as a new born babe just about sums it up. All of them, and would be delighted to share what they have shown me, and am eager to see another perspective. There are 10 in our small flock here, and we have many wonderful conversations about God's Word. Some comfortable, some not so much. Far better an uncomfortable truth than a comfortable lie. But we all seem to have that one thing in common. The continued unbiased search and acceptance of Biblical Truth.

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. For yours as well. I await further discussion on any topic at all. It's God's word, what's not to love?

EmethAlethia · Jul 5, 2021

Studyman said:
You would think this topic would be discussed on forums like this again and again, to help each other in the battle against deception. But it isn't. No one, or at least few, want to even discuss doctrines of the religions of the land. Every self proclaimed "christian" on the planet claims to be right, and they disagree with every religion which doesn't adopt their doctrines. No one can be corrected, no one can be wrong. There is nothing but religious men, who come in Christ's Name, defending their religious doctrines despite the scriptures. (For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers,)

The "Methodology" that allows every person to "Know" their beliefs are fact works for every belief group on the planet. If you love your beliefs, and not truth, God will make sure you find everything you need to hold fast to every single belief. Here's the problem, If you are an Atheist using the Methodology you know you have the truth, and while every other person and belief group using it ends up believing lies, you still know your group got it right. Now substitute the word Atheist for your belief group.

If you do the exact same thing that 9999 other belief groups do to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth, and you know the end result is that they believe lies with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, isn't it a bit proud and arrogant to proclaim your group does the exact same Method and arrives at unquestionably true beliefs? Yet, that is exactly what all belief groups do.

Studyman · Jul 5, 2021

EmethAlethia said:
The "Methodology" that allows every person to "Know" their beliefs are fact works for every belief group on the planet. If you love your beliefs, and not truth, God will make sure you find everything you need to hold fast to every single belief. Here's the problem, If you are an Atheist using the Methodology you know you have the truth, and while every other person and belief group using it ends up believing lies, you still know your group got it right. Now substitute the word Atheist for your belief group.

If you do the exact same thing that 9999 other belief groups do to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth, and you know the end result is that they believe lies with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, isn't it a bit proud and arrogant to proclaim your group does the exact same Method and arrives at unquestionably true beliefs? Yet, that is exactly what all belief groups do.

It seems the cure for this illness is completely submitting/humbling oneself to God's Word that was written for admonition. AS Jesus said "Man Shall Live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God".

Of course the one that this places himself in the small group of folks who believe God enough to do this, will bring the ridicule and Ire of those who want the Mercy, but not the instructions regarding it. The Bible is full of these examples. Caleb is one that comes to mind. And of course Jesus whose Lifestyle itself, exposed the mainstream preachers of His Time.

EmethAlethia · Jul 6, 2021

Studyman said:
It seems the cure for this illness is completely submitting/humbling oneself to God's Word that was written for admonition. AS Jesus said "Man Shall Live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God".

Of course the one that this places himself in the small group of folks who believe God enough to do this, will bring the ridicule and Ire of those who want the Mercy, but not the instructions regarding it. The Bible is full of these examples. Caleb is one that comes to mind. And of course Jesus whose Lifestyle itself, exposed the mainstream preachers of His Time.

It seems the cure for this illness is completely submitting/humbling oneself to God's Word that was written for admonition. AS Jesus said "Man Shall Live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God".

There’s the rub. Every person from every group that believes themselves to be “Christian”, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Baptists, Christian Science, Lutheran, … agrees with you. And they all believe the gospel is simple. They just believe different simple gospels. But ask them. “Do you seriously believe that you are submitting/humbling yourself to God’s word? Do you live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God?” and the answer is, “Yes. I, and those in my belief group do this as a habit and way of life.” I have asked them. Yes, they do believe this. Yes, they do believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior…

And that’s the point. If you do Methodology One, you get absolute proof your views are correct, all opposing positions are false, you know the correct interpretation of all valid data must affirm your faith, or at least not negate it, and since your beliefs are fact, giving serious consideration to anything else given the vast amounts of data you have gathered that already proves them wrong, and your beliefs true, would be a waste of all time and effort.

Question any belief and what do they jump back to?

1.) The masses of data they know proves their beliefs true.

2.) The tons of information they have gathered to prove opposing views false.

3.) How do they interpret everything? Their beliefs are facts. Period. The only correct interpretation of any valid data has to align with their beliefs. If you don’t agree, you are interpreting it wrong.

4.) But what about the data that contradicts? It’s invalid, misinterpreted, was distorted by evil monks … or we just plain ignore it or explain it away. Shoot, look at the tons of data that proves our views are correct.

5.) And don’t forget the Burning in the Bosom I got when I prayed about the Book of Mormon, the statue of Mary that came to life, grew back a young girls amputated foot and proclaimed that ne should pray for the one true church, the Roman Catholic church, and pray to Mary the primary intercessor between man and God, or the casting out of demons, marvelous works of power, speaking in tongs by the Mormon’s, Roman Catholics, Baptists … or that our church is the oldest, the fastest growing, the wealthiest, the … look at the number of missionaries we send out … the good we do in the name of Christ… Look at how many teachers and professors in the universities believe as we do. Of course, we have the truth!

Pick a belief or belief set. Calvinism or Armenianism, pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, anything where mankind has a belief and the above methodology gives them absolute unquestionable assurance that they, and their belief group are “completely submitting/humbling theirselves to God's Word that was written for admonition. Just AS Jesus said "Man Shall Live by Every Word that Proceeds from the mouth of God". That’s the point. If you do the things above, you will believe with all your heart, mind, soul and strength that your beliefs are true. There can be no other outcome. Anyone who does only this with the word of God will die with their beliefs intact, being a Mormon, a Jehovah’s Witness, Roman Catholic, Jew, Atheist, … pick the belief group.

But those who love truth can’t do Methodology One. It can never get anyone from a false belief to the truth. (And every person in those groups would say, “AMEN! Why would we ever want to consider exchanging the absolute truth of our beliefs for anything “else” which would be, by definition, a lie.” Every last person in every last belief group doing the things above KNOWS their beliefs are fact and will jump into all the things they have gathered above the moment you question them trampling under foot anything else you have to say.

Those who love truth cannot do bible studies with those using Methodology One. The goals are different. Those using Methodology One their beliefs and truth are the exact same thing. To attack one is to attack the other and to attack them personally. That is why they respond like those in Mat. 7:6. For those who love truth, all their beliefs are “open-handed”, i.e. they are open to alteration, change and replacement if the fullness of all the data that might pertain is cut straight with no meaning added, subtracted or distorted to try and force it to conform to a belief or a belief set.

Those who love truth will:

1.) Avoid “Methodology One”: Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them, is not the same as, “Proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and holding fast to what is good/true.”

2.) They will practice Open-mindedness: All belief groups believe in being open minded … “until” you accept their beliefs. Then they believe in being as closed as possible. If you love truth, you will continually remain open-minded to altering any or all of your beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “might” pertain to the topic at hand is rightly divided.

3.) be found performing Habitual ongoing Labor/ Getting Every Piece of Data that Might Pertain to Every Topic at Hand: If you Love Truth, you, personally, must become a manual laborer and keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false.

4.) They will hold to Consistency with Background Context: Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context.

5.) They will hold to Consistency of Meaning of words/root words/figures of speech: Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, and figures of speech consistent with their usage throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament, pick a meaning fully fitting everywhere the same word, root word, and figure of speech is used.

6.) They will hold to Consistency with the Surrounding Discussion: Hold to a meaning consistent with the entire discussion surrounding the verse or passage being considered, hold to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made …

7.) They will hold to Consistency with conscience: Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise and your interpretation results in believing God does what would be sin for us, your interpretation is wrong. i.e., there are no illustrations in the Bible where God says He commits adultery. If your chosen meaning for the word adultery would make God an adulterer, and by His own admission, you picked the wrong meaning for the word.

8.) They will only hold to interpretations that make God, God’s People and God’s Word 100% consistent in all they say and do and don’t say and don’t do: Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. Any inconsistencies, are proof of incorrect beliefs/definitions.

9.) Always apply logic, reason, and rational thinking: They always pick an interpretation fully fitting with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., if the writer spent a whole chapter saying all gifts are equal and necessary, that none are greater than any others, … do not choose an interpretation for the very next verse that would command us to desire what God spent the previous 30 verses saying doesn’t exist, and that you can’t get, period, regardless of your desire. “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts everything prior. Look for the “other” possible meaning. Note: There is one.

10.) They Start with the Easiest/Clearest … data on the topic: Interpret the clearest, easiest understood, most straightforward data/passages first—then the more complex or difficult passages. The complex, convoluted, and difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.

11.) It ALL fits together… perfectly: They always pick meanings for the parts that fully fit with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting anything from any piece to force it to comply with their beliefs. They know that if everything gathered (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything in #4-10 above, you have the wrong meaning, and you are forcing the scriptures to fit what you want to believe “as” truth.

12.) They Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and always hold fast to what is good/true, not their beliefs. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

13.) They know It’s all on them! Trusting others to get to truth “for” you, is like trusting others to have a relationship with your wife / husband / kids “for” you. It cannot be done. Our failure to keep on habitually doing as God commands all His people to keep on habitually doing, proving ALL things over and over, examining the scriptures diligently daily, not to prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false, but to see what really fits with everything else when ALL of it is “Cut-straight” one who stops, and uses Methodology One proves they have gathered enough to hold fast to what you “Want to believe” and fall short of :

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

If you try and discuss anything with these using Methodology One, what will they always jump to?

Everything gathered using Methodology One…

Everything they know proves their beliefs true,

Everything They have verified that shows opposing positions false … their interpretations …

And they will trample everything you have to say underfoot, and get angry that you could ever think they fall short of the 2Thes. 2:10-12 passage as well. According to self-assessment, no one ever false short of this passage either:

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

And if you are using Methodology One, you will never see or truly hear. You have closed your eyes and ears lest you see or hear anything that might conflict with your beliefs.

“Everyone always loves either the truth, or their beliefs. That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love more.”

EmethAlethia · Jul 16, 2021

Studyman said:
Thank you for this thought filled reply. It is good advice. Yes, as the Holy Scriptures tell us, the deceiver's first deception is to convince men they "shall surely not die" regardless of the Words of their Creator. Whole religions spend fast amounts of time, effort and money to convince folks of this one thing.

Of course to believe it, I must first discount the God of the Bible as a liar, and competent, and a respecter of persons. Something I can not do.

Those men of Jesus time didn't have the Oracles of God located in their own home, in their own hands, in their own mind. They were forced to rely on the Levite Priests and Scribes for "Instruction in Righteousness?. But as promised in the New Covenant, we don't need to depend on another to teach us, for we all shall know Him. And here we are with God's oracles in our own homes, by the billions. Most Everyone has direct access to God's Word.

So your point is a very good one. If a man truly hungers and thirsts for Righteousness, we have God's Word to guide us to it. With Jesus paving the way. If you truly want to "know God", we have direct access to His Word.

But if we are only interested in walking in the traditions of our fathers, or belonging to a giant religious social club, or a feel good religious franchise, God has also provided the "Other Voice" in the Garden to facilitate this as well.

A Choice as HE Himself declares, "Eternal Life or Eternal Death.

It is truly rare to hear someone who seems to understand what is become painfully obvious to me after 30 years of study. I am thankful to God for the post, and although God has told me in His Word there are others who believe in Him, I sometimes wonder where they are.

I like how you presented what I believe to be Truth about Scriptures. They should all flow together like a living stream. It is true there are some translations and small errors from differing translations. But if a person considers "Every word of God", these errors can be easily exposed. Coupled by the earnest desire to find truth, and the obedience humbling oneself to God brings about, He reveals Himself to those who truly Seek Him.

I find is easier to pick a popular religious doctrine and the scripture used to support it, and then do an exhaustive review of the Scriptures, as you have also advised..

For instance, the popular religious doctrine of this world that Jesus nailed "God's handwriting of ordinances" that were against us, or that the "Enmity" of "Law contained in ordinances" were God's, that was nailed to the cross.

When even marginal study shows no evidence that what was nailed to the cross came from God at all.

There are literally hundreds of these little introductions of Leaven, little falsehoods, deceptions, cleaver, and subtle, but change the message of the Holy Scriptures 180 degrees. To the point where what is left is a religion preaching doctrines which doesn't even resemble the Gospel of Christ, except they preach it in His Name.

Good for you to see this. Please don't hesitate to jump into a conversation here. I long for honest, unbiased examination of Scriptures. All of them, and would be delighted to share what they have shown me, and am eager to see another perspective. There are 10 in our small flock here, and we have many wonderful conversations about God's Word. Some comfortable, some not so much. But we all seem to have that one thing in common. The continued unbiased search and acceptance of Biblical Truth.

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply.

Wow.... they are out there. Like you said, it gets to a point where you start to feel like you are the only ones out there who see what has been done to the word of God over the centuries ... all of the things we have changed, altered, all the doctrines of men that have filled the churches nullifying the word of God to hold fast to traditions.

"Hundreds of little introductions of leaven?", probably thousands. Some not so little. Even our definition of adultery, fornication ... marriage ... what we should do with the word of God itself is the very foundation. Truth. How to get to truth, and what we do if we only want to prove our beliefs true and hold fast to them are the foundation on which everything is built.

As you say, 30 plus years ... I used to be an evangelical Atheist. Hunting down Christians. Not to have them put to death like Paul, but to destroy their relationship with God. I gathered evidence to prove we evolved. Scientific data that went from the floor to my knee, all "proof" that we evolved and weren't created. I had gathered over 10,000 errors from the bible to prove it was unreliable and untrustworthy... I destroyed the faith of dozens of Christians using their own bible to do so. Paul ... he was a good guy by comparison ... still ... he who is forgiven much loves much. Like I said, Paul was a good guy by comparison to me. I messed with God's kids. You mess with mine and I'll get you a personal audience with Him. And He forgave me ... while we were still hostile to Him He died for ME.

Such love. I would love to communicate directly. to compare notes on what I, the church, professing Christians have missed. I tell people all the time. Your agreement with me might only make us both wrong. Truth. Jesus, the Word of God ... they are all the same. Pursuit of truth is the pursuit of God. Knowing the difference and doing what it takes to get there and living it. That is life. Now and forever, that is life. How do we communicate directly? You are a man in pursuit of the heart of God. Let's pursue Him together.

I have started a book "Truth vs. Beliefs." I have stood at freeway entrances with a sign I had professionally done, "Honk if you Love the Bible", and have passed out hundreds of 4 page summaries of what we do if we love truth, and what we do if we just want to hold fast to our beliefs. Yes. I stood at freeway exits with a sign and gave out handouts ... not received them. Funny, right? And every copy had my email and phone number on it. How many people contacted me about it? 50 do you think ... 20 ... 10 ... 5 ... 1 ... NOT A SINGLE ONE. God, if there be _______ righteous men will you destroy Sodom and Gomorrah ... NOT A SINGLE ONE. My prayer to God ... where are your people Lord, those Hungry for truth. Those hungry for You?

Studyman ... 2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

Keep on habitually studying, as a habit and way of life and never stop "cutting straight" all that the word of God has to say, everything it means, so that every single piece fits with everything else God has to say, and everything He didn't say. It all fits together when we get it right. Whether we stand ashamed before God, or we are approved by Him all keys on how we live this. You have found 10. I am jealous. Happy ... but damn jealous. To find 10 that are hungry for truth. PRAISE GOD!

How do we communicate directly? Not that public airing of doctrine is a bad thing. We can find more. We can start topics and play off each other to find others hungry for truth. We found each other did we not. Odd ... I find myself wanting to know where we disagree on doctrines, not where we agree ... it is only there where I have hopes of altering my beliefs to fit truth. Like I said, If you agree with me it might only make us both wrong. It is where we disagree that gives me the opportunity to exchange the lies I believe for truth. If you love your beliefs and someone presents evidence that destroys them, you hate the one sharing ... but if you love truth and someone shares what destroys a belief, there is such love for the one sharing ... Let's plan this out. Let's work this out for Him.

I want a list of topics from you please. Your list of the leaven that has cropped into the church over the centuries. The narrow path ... to find others willing to "groan" to squeeze through while others take the wide thoroughfare ... Praise my God and Savior. Such joy ...

Studyman · Jul 17, 2021

EmethAlethia said:
Wow.... they are out there. Like you said, it gets to a point where you start to feel like you are the only ones out there who see what has been done to the word of God over the centuries ... all of the things we have changed, altered, all the doctrines of men that have filled the churches nullifying the word of God to hold fast to traditions.

"Hundreds of little introductions of leaven?", probably thousands. Some not so little. Even our definition of adultery, fornication ... marriage ... what we should do with the word of God itself is the very foundation. Truth. How to get to truth, and what we do if we only want to prove our beliefs true and hold fast to them are the foundation on which everything is built.

As you say, 30 plus years ... I used to be an evangelical Atheist. Hunting down Christians. Not to have them put to death like Paul, but to destroy their relationship with God. I gathered evidence to prove we evolved. Scientific data that went from the floor to my knee, all "proof" that we evolved and weren't created. I had gathered over 10,000 errors from the bible to prove it was unreliable and untrustworthy... I destroyed the faith of dozens of Christians using their own bible to do so. Paul ... he was a good guy by comparison ... still ... he who is forgiven much loves much. Like I said, Paul was a good guy by comparison to me. I messed with God's kids. You mess with mine and I'll get you a personal audience with Him. And He forgave me ... while we were still hostile to Him He died for ME.

Such love. I would love to communicate directly. to compare notes on what I, the church, professing Christians have missed. I tell people all the time. Your agreement with me might only make us both wrong. Truth. Jesus, the Word of God ... they are all the same. Pursuit of truth is the pursuit of God. Knowing the difference and doing what it takes to get there and living it. That is life. Now and forever, that is life. How do we communicate directly? You are a man in pursuit of the heart of God. Let's pursue Him together.

I have started a book "Truth vs. Beliefs." I have stood at freeway entrances with a sign I had professionally done, "Honk if you Love the Bible", and have passed out hundreds of 4 page summaries of what we do if we love truth, and what we do if we just want to hold fast to our beliefs. Yes. I stood at freeway exits with a sign and gave out handouts ... not received them. Funny, right? And every copy had my email and phone number on it. How many people contacted me about it? 50 do you think ... 20 ... 10 ... 5 ... 1 ... NOT A SINGLE ONE. God, if there be _______ righteous men will you destroy Sodom and Gomorrah ... NOT A SINGLE ONE. My prayer to God ... where are your people Lord, those Hungry for truth. Those hungry for You?

Studyman ... 2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

Keep on habitually studying, as a habit and way of life and never stop "cutting straight" all that the word of God has to say, everything it means, so that every single piece fits with everything else God has to say, and everything He didn't say. It all fits together when we get it right. Whether we stand ashamed before God, or we are approved by Him all keys on how we live this. You have found 10. I am jealous. Happy ... but damn jealous. To find 10 that are hungry for truth. PRAISE GOD!

How do we communicate directly? Not that public airing of doctrine is a bad thing. We can find more. We can start topics and play off each other to find others hungry for truth. We found each other did we not. Odd ... I find myself wanting to know where we disagree on doctrines, not where we agree ... it is only there where I have hopes of altering my beliefs to fit truth. Like I said, If you agree with me it might only make us both wrong. It is where we disagree that gives me the opportunity to exchange the lies I believe for truth. If you love your beliefs and someone presents evidence that destroys them, you hate the one sharing ... but if you love truth and someone shares what destroys a belief, there is such love for the one sharing ... Let's plan this out. Let's work this out for Him.

I want a list of topics from you please. Your list of the leaven that has cropped into the church over the centuries. The narrow path ... to find others willing to "groan" to squeeze through while others take the wide thoroughfare ... Praise my God and Savior. Such joy ...

What is your understanding of God's Holy Sabbath?

EmethAlethia · Jul 17, 2021

Studyman said:
What is your understanding of God's Holy Sabbath?

We could look at the definition of the Sabbath, that it was created for men, because like fields and everything else we need a periodic rest. Or that doing good, or what is necessary, like healing (Health care workers) or pulling out an ox from a well, or unstopping the only toilet in the house … is perfectly ok. Or that obeying God, regardless of the amount of work ,on the Sabbath is still a good thing … but … I think you want to go farther than that. How about this:

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

And this:

Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Is that what you were looking for? In most of the letters there isn't even a mention of the Sabbath.

Studyman · Jul 17, 2021

EmethAlethia said:
We could look at the definition of the Sabbath, that it was created for men, because like fields and everything else we need a periodic rest. Or that doing good, or what is necessary, like healing (Health care workers) or pulling out an ox from a well, or unstopping the only toilet in the house … is perfectly ok. Or that obeying God, regardless of the amount of work ,on the Sabbath is still a good thing … but … I think you want to go farther than that. How about this:

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

And this:

Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Is that what you were looking for? In most of the letters there isn't even a mention of the Sabbath.

No, you have made your position quite clear. I would add that the Law "Though shall not Kill" is mentioned only 5 times in the New Testament.

Thou shall not Covet is only mentioned 2 times, the actual word only 4 times.

The word "Sabbath" is mentioned 55 times in the New Testament.

I'm not sure this argument is relevant given all three are apart of God's Commandments.

In the scriptures you posted "Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience"

What is the example of disobedience Hebrews 4 talking about?

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Who is the "them" here?

Please consider the previous chapter for God's answer to this question.

Heb. 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So my friend, does this not tell us what "Example of Disobedience" we are not to follow?

And what was their Sin? Shall we not go to these Examples to find out?

Ez. 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.

11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Do you believe these are the "Examples of Disobedience" we are told, in the verse you posted, NOT to follow? If not, then can you show me what Examples Heb. 4 is speaking to?

Also, what if I am born into a world with religions that don't listen to God? Like the world Jesus was born into. Shall I turn from God and His Word, just to be accepted by the religions of this world? Did Jesus do this? I think we can can agree HE didn't do this. He followed His Father's instructions regardless of what the mainstream religions of this world said.

In fact, they judged HIM as a devil. A deceiver. A Fraud. Did Jesus allow them to change His obedience to God? Did HE conform to their religion or religious philosophies because of their Judgments of Him?

I think we can also agree HE did not let them Judge Him. Did Paul understand this? I think he did. And it prompted him to write for our edification, the other scripture you posted.

Ciol. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body "is" of Christ.

The "is" was added by the translators. It wasn't in the original transcript, which read something like "Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.

CLV says it this way "which are a shadow of those things which are impending - yet the body is the Christ's"

Consider that this was over 14 years since Jesus ascended. So there are still "shadows of things yet to come".

Then Paul said;

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

So who is it we are to humble our self to here? Shall I let the Judgment of the religions of this world "beguile me of the Promise"?

I am hoping we can have a honest, unbiased examination of Scriptures, for the edification of us both. And I look forward to your take and answer to the questions I posed.

Thanks for your reply.

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