The Great Tribulation: 66-70 AD, or

Zao is life

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At least you have admitted above that some of the wicked angels are bound in some manner.
We are making progress.


Now if you can prove Satan did not sin, maybe you can convince some of those here that Satan is not found in 2 Peter 2:4.


If you can prove Satan is not the king of the angels in the bottomless pit, maybe you can convince some here that he is not found in Revelation 9:11.


You still seem to be having problems proving the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, based on Revelation 11:18, and Revelation 16:15-16.


Your name calling has been interesting.
I am a retired middle school teacher. I have very thick skin.

.
Nope. I never called you any names. I had to very unkindly point out the utter hypocrisy of pretending you have a major problem with what you say will be a sin-infested thousand year reign of Christ (when clearly, with Satan bound and Christ ruling all nations with a rod of iron, it can't be), when you re 100% satisfied with the false notion that Christ is now ruling the nations with a rod of iron in a symbolic millennium in this very, very wicked world that is sin-infested and cursed with man's corruption, greed, immorality and cruelty, right now.

You still have not admitted that you have utterly failed to prove that Satan is now bound when there are at least 4 verses in scripture saying the opposite, therefore we've made absolutely no progress and cannot progress to the book of Revelation when you have the basics wrong because you've got your interpretations built on a foundation of sand which you have dug on the sea's side of the high-tide mark, and built your castle of sand on top of it.
 
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nolidad

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Those passages are talking about what God will do, when He does it. I think you re the one thinking with your feelings. If I was thinking with my feelings every Jew would be saved. If I was thinking with my feelings I would deny that the Jews are going to be attacked in Israel by the nations.

The fact that I think more clearly about this leads me to acknowledge the fact that the state we know as Israel today = the realized goal of Zionists who have forced their way back into the land to the exclusion of Christ and despite the will of God, and are attempting to force the fulfillment of God's promises to the exclusion of Christ, in attempts to make them come true some other way.

You're the one who sees God's hand in man's "I'll do it my way" activities.

Well the Bible says they will return in unbelief, God will chastise them, pass them under the rod of His judgment, and force them to enter into the bond of the New Covenant!

Israel is still being saved today! There still is a remnant. I have been to Israel and there are over 1000 messianc congregations today. I worshipped with one of the largest ones! Remember the veil is still upon their eyes!

But as is written in Zeph. 2/3 of all Jews will die in the 70th week of Daniel, th e1/3 that survives will call upon Jesus as Savior and cause Jesus to return! That is all in the bible.
 
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Zao is life

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Well the Bible says they will return in unbelief, God will chastise them, pass them under the rod of His judgment, and force them to enter into the bond of the New Covenant!

Israel is still being saved today! There still is a remnant. I have been to Israel and there are over 1000 messianc congregations today. I worshipped with one of the largest ones! Remember the veil is still upon their eyes!

But as is written in Zeph. 2/3 of all Jews will die in the 70th week of Daniel, th e1/3 that survives will call upon Jesus as Savior and cause Jesus to return! That is all in the bible.
Give me the verse where the Bible says they will return in their unbelief.

Have you ever considered that God is restoring Israel every time a Jew repents of his or her unbelief and through faith in Christ, is saved? Why can't this take place in the nations? Does it have to take place in Israel?
 
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BABerean2

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with what you say will be a sin-infested thousand year reign of Christ (when clearly, with Satan bound and Christ ruling all nations with a rod of iron, it can't be)


If you can show Christ ruling with a rod of Iron in Revelation chapter 20, I would love to see it.



.
 
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Zao is life

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If you can show Christ ruling with a rod of Iron in Revelation chapter 20, I would love to see it.
If you can show Satan bound right now and Christ ruling in the world with a rod of iron right now in this sin-infested, corrupt and wicked world right now, I'd love to see it. You've had ample opportunity to show where the Bible states Satan is bound right now, but because you've failed, you are diverting attention away from your failure to do so again.
 
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Timtofly

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Thanks for your post but you've put a lot of strange info into your post that Revelation and the Bible doesn't say, though, Timtofly. Humanoid robots and paradise in the sky? For some unknown reason, the Revelation and Matthew 24 don't mention these, and are silent about geography being put back so that the four rivers in paradise in the sky come back down to earth. So not sure where your info comes from.
The Garden is mentioned in Genesis 2.

Paradise is the promise Jesus gave to the believing thief on the cross.

The temple of God is mentioned in Revelation 7.

The New Jerusalem is mentioned in Revelation 21. John measures the current version in Revelation 11. An Angel measures the new version in chapter 21.

God intended all of Adam's descendants to live in the Garden. Adam was banned. Paradise was the name given by Jesus on the cross and it was in heaven. At the cross, the OT church, was taken out of sheol and allowed into Paradise/Garden. Whenever a member of the church dies, Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 says they are immediately in Paradise. This is shown in the 5th seal, all those physically dead church members have been changed, they are waiting for their robe of white, glorified bodies. Revelation 6, and the 6th seal can be the only rapture ever. Those who die physically after this moment, are only resurrected to live on earth, Revelation 20. They continue to live on the new earth. In the new heavens and earth, the church comes down in the New Jerusalem. At the 6th seal the whole world will know the truth. If you do not believe me, that is fine. I am patiently waiting for that moment as well. I am prepared to obey God in all things now and the rest of my existence.

What islands do you think on a God sized scale, John sees moved?

A humanoid image is brought to life as the ultimate savior of mankind's frustrations. This image is humanoid, because it is the form of the false prophet a human. It is not the form of Satan. Satan is an angel. Angels are a "dime a dozen". Satan mocks God and is allowed to give life to a humanoid image. Why is there such a push today for and against AI intelligence? Satan is already preparing all hearts and minds for his big reveal.
 
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BABerean2

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If you can show Satan bound right now and Christ ruling in the world with a rod of iron right now in this sin-infested, corrupt and wicked world right now, I'd love to see it.

Christ rules with the rod of Iron, by destroying the flawed pots at His Second Coming.

Read Psalm 2.

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Timtofly

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When you see Jesus on the day of His Second Coming, ask Him for how many years he will be performing funeral services after that day.

Ask Him if you can help with the funerals, and the burials.

Tell Him that He should use the rod of Iron to correct people, instead of destroying them as the text of Psalm 2 states.

Tell Him to leave the earth in a sin-cursed condition for 1,000 years before the arrival of the New Heavens, and the New Earth, because Peter was wrong in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Ask Him if you can help rebuild a temple in earthly Jerusalem.
Ask if you can help with the animal sacrifices in this temple, when it is completed.

Ask Him when you will get your first group of mortals to teach so well that they will rebel against Him after 1,000 years.
That will be some excellent teaching you are going to do.

Tell Him to erase Revelation 11:18, and Revelation 16:15-16, so the Book of Revelation can be in chronological order.


It almost sounds like a story written by a science fiction writer.
I wish someone would make the above into a movie so that Premill promoters could really see what they are promoting.
Can you count all the funeral service from April and May of this year? Why create strawman fallacies?

Why would any one want to waste time on the truth, when they enjoy spreading apostate theology instead? Humans today will never be convinced by the truth. Only God can heal humanity. Only after the church repenting, humbling themselves, and turning from wickedness, will God heal.

No, the church is too busy waiting for an Antichrist, Satan to come. They are gambling on a future one world government. They are preparing against doing God’s will and preparing to endure, instead of repentance. They change Scripture to match this apostate theology. It is the theory of evolution where things will just keep getting better and better. Even if it takes millions of years, it will just get better and better.
 
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Timtofly

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Whats your point?

That The coming of Jesus Christ as a Thief was a conditional first-century event based on the decisions of men???

That The coming of Jesus Christ as a Thief was delayed 2000+ years because some first-century men did or did not not repent when Jesus attempted to come back for them?

Not hardly.

St. John did not say Christ's coming to them was conditional. RATHER, what was conditional was whether or not Jesus was going to reward them or punish them at his coming to them. That Jesus was returning to those seven, first century churches of Asia Minor is not in question, if we are to trust the words of St. John and Jesus Christ.

The only conditional part to Rev 2-3 is whether each Church would be punished or rewarded (according to their works, of course). If they were obedient, they were rewarded. If disobedient, punished. The idea that Christ was making his thief's coming to them conditional is nowhere in the text.

--COMPARE THIS--

Matt 24:42-44
be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming...if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you think not

--TO THIS--

Revelation 3:1-3
"To the angel of the [first-century] church of Sardis write:...remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

The giving of either a punishment or a reward was all that was conditional, and the condition was placed upon "their works" (Matt 16:27; Rev 20:13; Rom 2:6), which Jesus was then judging in Rev 2-3 (Rev 2:2, 2:9, 2:13, 2:19, Rev 3:2, 3:8, 3:15 ). The judging of their works took place in Revelation 2-3, back in the first century, and St. John documents it for us to read about.

The thief's coming itself was not conditional, and it was fulfilled exactly when Jesus and the apostles believed it would be--in their generation.

The coming of Jesus Christ as a Thief is NOT A CONDITIONAL EVENT. According to scripture, the coming of Jesus Christ as a Thief was to take place irrespective of whether some repented and others did not -- in fact, scripture fully and uniformly teaches that some would be faithful and others unfaithful (Romans 2:5-9; Mt 25:1-13; Lk 13:24-30; 1 Cor 3:12-15). As the angel also plainly states:

Revelation 22:10-11
And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Did you catch that? Man's repentance or lack thereof has nothing to do with the timing of the coming of Christ as a Thief. Nothing whatsoever. Note also that Jesus explicitly says that the Thyatria Prophetess movement chose not to repent, and that He was coming and would kill her and her "children." But to the rest at Thyatria (the faithful), they were to hold fast and had no additional burden placed upon them, for Jesus had rewards to give them as stated in Rev 2:26-28. We know that Christ came to them, for he came and killed the Prophetess and rewarded the faithful as he said. This is all first-century stuff here. No "Church Age," no "1948," no "21st century computer chips" -- the glorified Jesus knew of none of those modern speculative doctrines, and that makes them impossible doctrines, ones not found anywhere in scripture. Had any of those things been biblical doctrines, then Jesus would not be speaking to first-century churches about His coming TO THEM as we see him doing in Revelation 2-3, where He plainly applies the doctrine to first-century people.
I hardly think your own doctrine and theology are any more enlightening than the Pharisees' version or the Preterist version. Nor am I questioning the logic of your explanation. The issue is that AD70 is a false positive. It has similiar overtones, but no one for the next 300 years gave any support to a Second Coming event. That is why after 1000 years Preterism thought the same thing we hear today. There is no way to prove it. So it is only supposition. God is saying the time is now. It is useless to try to figure out the past. Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead. We do not have to worry about dead people. Declaring the future as null and void hardly makes any sense. Saying Revelation is not in chronological order is also senseless.
 
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parousia70

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My only concern here is that.... Revelation was written around 90 AD 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem

That is one opinion, and while the Late vs. Early date debate is entirely unprovable either way, the vast majority of published scholars on the topic side with a pre 70AD date for it's penning... which the internal evidence also most strongly supports.

In stark contrast, all late date advocates can only base their position on one single, ambiguous statement from ECF Irenaeus, who also believed Jesus lived to be 50 years old...

Since you've stated the Late date as your concern, Perhaps you would share what evidence you have seen that convinces you of the 90AD date for it's penning, and what evidence for the pre 70AD date have you examined and found to be unconvincing?
 
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Timtofly

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I had half jokingly made a comment early that I do not believe this is a star falling to the earth, but something that appears as a falling star.
Seeing this is a time of war, this could possibly be a bunker busting nuclear missile hitting Iran's underground nuclear facility.

Could it make smoke come out of the earth?
It probably could.

Revelation 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss.
Revelation 9:2 The star opened the pit of the Abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit.


Then again I've read that Yellowstone is a target for some countries but I'm not going to worry about it.
A star in the Bible is an angel. Now if John had said, "I see their armies as angels like lightning shooting across the sky". It would have been a little more specific.
 
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parousia70

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I hardly think your own doctrine and theology are any more enlightening than the Pharisees' version or the Preterist version. Nor am I questioning the logic of your explanation.

Perhaps then, you might elaborate on why you believed your question:
"Are you assuming the church at Sardis disobeyed God?"
Was even relevant to the discussion then?

If My Logic is sound enough for you not to call it into question, and you have no reasonable alternative to offer up, then why would you question it at all?

The issue is that AD70 is a false positive. It has similiar overtones, but no one for the next 300 years gave any support to a Second Coming event.

Uninspired, extra biblical writings that do not support Clear biblical teaching are hardly "evidence" against the Apostolic writ, are they?

That is why after 1000 years Preterism thought the same thing we hear today. There is no way to prove it. So it is only supposition.

Rather, it's Futurism that is wrought with nothing but supposition....(EU, Microchips, Solar Flares, Meteorites, Bill gates... ) In stark contrast, we have clear Apostolic and Christic testimony, that, when taken at face value, cement these eschatological events as being PRIMARILY applicable to the first century.

Declaring the future as null and void hardly makes any sense. Saying Revelation is not in chronological order is also senseless.

Who is saying either of those things? Certainly not me.
 
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Timtofly

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Perhaps then, you might elaborate on why you believed your question:
"Are you assuming the church at Sardis disobeyed God?"
Was even relevant to the discussion then?

If My Logic is sound enough for you not to call it into question, and you have no reasonable alternative to offer up, then why would you question it at all?

I did not say it is sound. I said I have no argument with it. If the church at Sardis was obedient, is my point. How can you prove either way, was also my point.


Uninspired, extra biblical writings that do not support Clear biblical teaching are hardly "evidence" against the Apostolic writ, are they?

Why would you think the dead re-wrote history to confuse us?

Rather, it's Futurism that is wrought with nothing but supposition....(EU, Microchips, Solar Flares, Meteorites, Bill gates... ) In stark contrast, we have clear Apostolic and Christic testimony, that, when taken at face value, cement these eschatological events as being PRIMARILY applicable to the first century.

Nope, for the first 200 to 300 years we have clear evidence the church had to keep voting over whether Jesus was a human, or that Jesus was God. I guess that was bigger theology than a Second Coming event? Kind of telling the church was confused when some decades Jesus was just a human by majority vote, and then some decades Jesus was God by majority vote. One should think a Second Coming event would have been a clear deciding factor?

Who is saying either of those things? Certainly not me.

Any one who says that prophecy has already been fullfilled. I apologize if that was not the point of your well thought out logical argument. I do not know if the church at Sardis obeyed. I just pointed out that if they had, your logic would prove, something that is still in the future, remains in the future. I have not read about everything that ever happened in the past, but I have read about many past events. I think that if someone brings up the past, it cannot be recorded in the Bible as being fulfilled. If Revelation was sent out prior to 70AD, it cannot include 70AD events. One has to rely on history alone. If it was sent out as late as 90AD, why did it not include 70AD events? Neither arguments can prove 70AD as the fulfillment of Revelation. It may be part of Jesus' teachings. It may be part of Daniel's prophecies. No one in the 1st century confirmed it one iota. No one seemed to even mention it until over a 1000 years later, when Preterism was introduced. Can anyone today, without a single historical document, prove there was even Preterist 800 years ago? Some cannot even agree on events from 200 years ago. How can there be any proof from events 1950 years ago?
 
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shilohsfoal

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A star in the Bible is an angel. Now if John had said, "I see their armies as angels like lightning shooting across the sky". It would have been a little more specific.


No, not all stars in the Bible are angels.
Falling stars today are the same as they were 2000 years ago. We know they are not stars and so did Christ but they were still called falling stars just as they are today.
The heavens don't depart from the earth when an angel falls.
People don't hide underground when angels fall.

Revelation 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.
Revelation 6:14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

These things happen when missiles are falling around them.The sky receding from the earth like a scroll being rolled together is what a nuclear cloud looks like from the earth.
These are definitely not angels these people are hiding from.
 
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BABerean2

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Can you count all the funeral service from April and May of this year? Why create strawman fallacies?

If you think mortals will live alongside immortals for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ, the "fallacy" is not coming from me.


.
 
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shilohsfoal

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If you think mortals will live alongside immortals for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ, the "fallacy" is not coming from me.


.

You believe the promised land doesn't have boundaries? You believe Egypt will Invade the promised land after God says it won't?
 
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BABerean2

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You believe the promised land doesn't have boundaries? You believe Egypt will Invade the promised land after God says it won't?


Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


.
 
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Timtofly

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No, not all stars in the Bible are angels.
Falling stars today are the same as they were 2000 years ago. We know they are not stars and so did Christ but they were still called falling stars just as they are today.
The heavens don't depart from the earth when an angel falls.
People don't hide underground when angels fall.

Revelation 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind.
Revelation 6:14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

These things happen when missiles are falling around them.The sky receding from the earth like a scroll being rolled together is what a nuclear cloud looks like from the earth.
These are definitely not angels these people are hiding from.
It is God they are hiding from.
 
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