New or Renewed Covenant?

mkgal1

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The clear contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Galatians 4:24-31, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, prove they are two completely different covenants.

Otherwise, why are we not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24?
I don't disagree that there are clear distinctions between covenants mediated by humans.....and the New Covenant mediated by Christ.

The point I'm trying to make (and what the article is based on) is that there was a continual comparison between the covenants as well. God desired to reconcile humanity's allegiance to Him. He desired to be the One True God....where there were no other gods before Him.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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I came across this article this morning and thought it would be great for discussion. The main premise from the article is this:


Quoting linked article:
I noticed that in another answer you called the new covenant the renewed covenant. Can you please explain?

In Jeremiah 31:31 we see God renewing, restoring, or refreshing - not replacing - the covenant with his people. So why do we express the covenant in such terms?

The Term - "New"
Both the Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) and the Greek kainos (Heb. 8:8) words for "new" may be more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new" in certain contexts.

Chadash may mean new in quality, not new in time (1 Sam. 11:14; 2 Chron. 15:8; 24:4, 12; Job 10:7; Psa. 103:5; 104:30; Isa. 61:4; Lam. 5:21). It may also mean to "renew" or "repair". For instance, in Psalm 51:10 David says, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." David uses the same word as in Jeremiah 31:31 (chadash). David was not asking for something brand-new, but was asking for a renewal of what he had previously. In 2 Chronicles 24:4, 12 we see the use of the terms repair and restore (root, chadash) with the already existent house of the Lord. So, in all these verses, there is a renewal, a repairing, a restoring of that which was already in existence. The same is true for Jeremiah 31.

In the New Testament, of the eight times that "new" is applied to the New Covenant, seven of them use the term kainos - meaning "renewed," or "new in quality," not necessarily time (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:13; 9:15) as opposed to neos (meaning new in time - Heb. 12:24). The use of term kainos means there was a pre-existing covenant to which Jesus gave a qualitative difference.


As to the one verse that uses neos to describe the New Covenant (Heb. 12:24), it simply means Jesus was the "brand-new" (neos) Administrator of the re-newed (kainos) covenant (as opposed to Moses some two thousand years earlier). This is brand-new and makes the covenant re-newal possible.
The Re-Newed or New Covenant?
This would help explain Daniel's 70 week prophecy where it's stated "He will confirm a covenant with many for one week"(Daniel 9:27)

Thoughts?
I agree with the article. The covenant with Abraham and Israel is new or fresh with Jesus' first coming. Its inner or principial meanings carry over to the New Testament international church, but Jesus' death dissolved the outward, national form.
 
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Joyous Song

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chadash does mean Renew but this doesn't mean it cannot be modify to best fit those coming into it. . As was quoted

"Behold, the days are coming," saya the HaShem, "that I will make a Renewed covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"

This renewed Covenant based on faith, hope and love. is for BOTH houses.

"Not like to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bought them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says HaShem."

This covenant will not be based on the Moshe covenant of sacrificing bulls and goats and doves. one sacrifice covers all the blood sacrifices but the Thanksgiving Sacrifice (of Bread and Wine) Still stands.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says HaShem, I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Note The House of Judah is not mentioned this time. This is because the House of Israel, Ephraim, though the youngest of the brothers (and uncle) according to Jer. 31.9 is HaShem's first born:

31.9 They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel’s father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

And Ezekiel states:

Ez. 37.15 The word of the HaShem came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

This happened in the first century. Christ first called Judah and all the disciples were Jewish. Thus the first stick is for Judah and all those associated with him (like the Tribe of Benjamin). Then Christ sent Paul to reach the gentiles and in bringing salvation to the gentiles (Joseph means He will add) he was also bringing in Ephraim (that is, to Ephraim).

Ez.37.18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’

When people ask, ask what, when we regain interest in the first century Church, Vatican II was a call to make that return, then these stick will be joined again but look the order has changed. And another detail has changed, not only is the stick of Joseph also Ephraim, now this stick rests in Ephraim's hand, Rom.11.25-27, and this includes those tribes (the Grafted in) associated with them. Then this stick, in Ephraim hand will reunite with Judah stick in just as Judah stick reunited with Joseph's long ago.

Jer.31. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the L-rd: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the HaShem: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

We are not to teach our neighbor, for Christians Judah and other Christian bodies; or our brother for Ephraim that's Judah. Besides Judah does know a form of Christ (see our write ups on Revelation on the Scripture site for details). They do not see Him as the Suffering Messiah, Moshiach ben Y'sef (Messiah Son of Joseph), or Ben Ephraim, but then this was because they missed His larger Mission.

However they do see Him in Moshiach Ben Dovid, (Messiah Son of David). Part of why they do not believe is because Jesus Christ did not fulfill everything the Messiah was to fulfill. He did not bring Ephraim home (Roman 11.25's mystery) , Yet even so He still "will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" for the are beloeved for their father's sake, Rom.11.28.






 
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Dave L

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I came across this article this morning and thought it would be great for discussion. The main premise from the article is this:


Quoting linked article:
I noticed that in another answer you called the new covenant the renewed covenant. Can you please explain?

In Jeremiah 31:31 we see God renewing, restoring, or refreshing - not replacing - the covenant with his people. So why do we express the covenant in such terms?

The Term - "New"
Both the Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) and the Greek kainos (Heb. 8:8) words for "new" may be more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new" in certain contexts.

Chadash may mean new in quality, not new in time (1 Sam. 11:14; 2 Chron. 15:8; 24:4, 12; Job 10:7; Psa. 103:5; 104:30; Isa. 61:4; Lam. 5:21). It may also mean to "renew" or "repair". For instance, in Psalm 51:10 David says, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." David uses the same word as in Jeremiah 31:31 (chadash). David was not asking for something brand-new, but was asking for a renewal of what he had previously. In 2 Chronicles 24:4, 12 we see the use of the terms repair and restore (root, chadash) with the already existent house of the Lord. So, in all these verses, there is a renewal, a repairing, a restoring of that which was already in existence. The same is true for Jeremiah 31.

In the New Testament, of the eight times that "new" is applied to the New Covenant, seven of them use the term kainos - meaning "renewed," or "new in quality," not necessarily time (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:13; 9:15) as opposed to neos (meaning new in time - Heb. 12:24). The use of term kainos means there was a pre-existing covenant to which Jesus gave a qualitative difference.


As to the one verse that uses neos to describe the New Covenant (Heb. 12:24), it simply means Jesus was the "brand-new" (neos) Administrator of the re-newed (kainos) covenant (as opposed to Moses some two thousand years earlier). This is brand-new and makes the covenant re-newal possible.
The Re-Newed or New Covenant?
This would help explain Daniel's 70 week prophecy where it's stated "He will confirm a covenant with many for one week"(Daniel 9:27)

Thoughts?
I believe the covenant Jesus confirmed was the Old Covenant which he fulfilled on the cross. And the New Covenant was mostly a spiritual interpretation of the Old. Built around the Sermon on the Mount which was the spiritual interpretation of the Law.
 
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mkgal1

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The Jews (Judaism) argue that the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 is a "renewal" of the existing Mt. Sinai covenant.

However, the flaw to their argument is that the new covenant is unlike the one God had made with them in the desert.
Modern Jews argue that? Do you have a source to cite?
 
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claninja

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Agreed.

Also......through the incarnation of God in Jesus.....Jesus is the final mediator and High Priest.

Exactly. I think its important to realized what changed and why, and what didn't change.

The shadows became the reality in Christ when he fulfilled them, thus they are no longer a reality for us, because He is our reality.

The moral standards and the requirements to keep God's moral standards never changed. Christ fulfilled them. And since we are one with him by being his body, this required, never changing righteous standard is now met in us, even when we fail because He didn't fail.

Therefore the new agreement is not to the law of Moses for earthly blessings, it is to Christ who fulfilled the law of moses in order to provide us redemption.

The shadow is now the reality :)









 
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Douggg

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Modern Jews argue that? Do you have a source to cite?
From one place at Aish.com.... a response from a rabbi.

Jeremiah 31 and the New Covenant: Ask the Rabbi Response

"....Although it does state that God will create a new covenant, it clearly states that it will be with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It further continues that as part of the covenant God would place His Torah upon our hearts (v. 32). Thus, even though we had broken our original covenant with God, He will create a newer stronger one in its place – but still with Israel and again commanding us to observe His Torah. The new covenant did not abrogate the original one to keep the Torah nor was it directed towards all the nations. As vv. 34-35 continue, Israel will continue to be God’s nation so long as the sun shines, the moon rises, and the surf breaks upon the coast.

In addition, as is clear from the verses, this renewal of the covenant will be with both the houses of Judah and Israel (i.e., with both the southern kingdom of Judah and the northern kingdom of the Ten Tribes)...."
 
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Douggg

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Modern Jews argue that? Do you have a source to cite?
from another place, just a couple of days ago, at MessiahTruth countermissionary site.
365 Prophecies about Jesus -- 350. Zechariah 11:12-13b...Rejected... Matthew 26:14-15


".....The translation “new” at the end of Y'rmiyahu / Jeremiah 31:30 (the Christian number is 31) really means “renewed” because verse 32 (33 in Christian versions) clearly states that the “new” b'rit (covenant) is going to be G-d’s Torah -- just as the Sinaic covenant is G-d's Torah....."
They also mistranslate חֲדָשָׁה at the end of verse 30 as "new."

"....This is incorrect and ought to be “renewed”, because verse 32 clearly states that the “new” b'rit (covenant) is going to be G-d’s Torah -- just as the Torah is the covenant of Sinai.

This is a renewal of the earlier covenant."
 
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Douggg

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Modern Jews argue that? Do you have a source to cite?
The confirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is not what you are thinking as being something that Jesus did.

It is something the Antichrist will do, just as the Jews are expecting. A renewal of the existing Mt. Sinai covenant to start off the messianic age. A big speech from the temple mount, citing Deuteronomy 31:9-13, for the 7 years that Moses required of all future leaders of Israel.

That is why they will be saying peace and safety in 1Thessalonians5:3.
 
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mkgal1

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Exactly. I think its important to realized what changed and why, and what didn't change.

The shadows became the reality in Christ when he fulfilled them, thus they are no longer a reality for us, because He is our reality.

The moral standards and the requirements to keep God's moral standards never changed. Christ fulfilled them. And since we are one with him by being his body, this required, never changing righteous standard is now met in us, even when we fail because He didn't fail.

Therefore the new agreement is not to the law of Moses for earthly blessings, it is to Christ who fulfilled the law of moses in order to provide us redemption.

The shadow is now the reality :)








YES!!

I really like how you arriculated all this.

Like the article states, in all but one of the verses that use "new" to describe the new covenant....that word is defined to mean "repaired", "restored", or "refreshed". IOW...what was wrong or inferior about the shadows was made right in Christ. For example.....the animal sacrifices only covered sin....Christ "took away" sin.

The only time "new" is used in a passage to mean as something that wasn't before was the change from Moses to Jesus as mediator.

Thanks for the clarity, Claninja.
 
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In Jeremiah 31:31 we see God renewing, restoring, or refreshing - not replacing - the covenant with his people. So why do we express the covenant in such terms?

Oh really?

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
 
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Douggg

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Modern Jews argue that? Do you have a source to cite?
I just made a post at MessiahTruth.com to my long term acquaintance there Sophiee. I asked for some links regarding "renewal".

My post #2 and Sophiee's post #3 which she provided some links.
365 Prophecies about Jesus -- 350. Zechariah 11:12-13b...Rejected... Matthew 26:14-15

btw, if you ever go there to join and post, ask questions only about what they believe. They don't want to hear what Christians believe, nor any argument about Jesus being the messiah. They will not release your post, and will quickly ban you if you repeat too much. It is a great site for information though of what Jews believe.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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chadash does mean Renew but this doesn't mean it cannot be modify to best fit those coming into it. . As was quoted

"Behold, the days are coming," saya the HaShem, "that I will make a Renewed covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"

This renewed Covenant based on faith, hope and love. is for BOTH houses.

"Not like to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bought them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says HaShem."

This covenant will not be based on the Moshe covenant of sacrificing bulls and goats and doves. one sacrifice covers all the blood sacrifices but the Thanksgiving Sacrifice (of Bread and Wine) Still stands.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says HaShem, I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Note The House of Judah is not mentioned this time. This is because the House of Israel, Ephraim, though the youngest of the brothers (and uncle) according to Jer. 31.9 is HaShem's first born:

31.9 They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel’s father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

And Ezekiel states:

Ez. 37.15 The word of the HaShem came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

This happened in the first century. Christ first called Judah and all the disciples were Jewish. Thus the first stick is for Judah and all those associated with him (like the Tribe of Benjamin). Then Christ sent Paul to reach the gentiles and in bringing salvation to the gentiles (Joseph means He will add) he was also bringing in Ephraim (that is, to Ephraim).

Ez.37.18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’

When people ask, ask what, when we regain interest in the first century Church, Vatican II was a call to make that return, then these stick will be joined again but look the order has changed. And another detail has changed, not only is the stick of Joseph also Ephraim, now this stick rests in Ephraim's hand, Rom.11.25-27, and this includes those tribes (the Grafted in) associated with them. Then this stick, in Ephraim hand will reunite with Judah stick in just as Judah stick reunited with Joseph's long ago.

Jer.31. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the L-rd: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the HaShem: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

We are not to teach our neighbor, for Christians Judah and other Christian bodies; or our brother for Ephraim that's Judah. Besides Judah does know a form of Christ (see our write ups on Revelation on the Scripture site for details). They do not see Him as the Suffering Messiah, Moshiach ben Y'sef (Messiah Son of Joseph), or Ben Ephraim, but then this was because they missed His larger Mission.

However they do see Him in Moshiach Ben Dovid, (Messiah Son of David). Part of why they do not believe is because Jesus Christ did not fulfill everything the Messiah was to fulfill. He did not bring Ephraim home (Roman 11.25's mystery) , Yet even so He still "will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" for the are beloeved for their father's sake, Rom.11.28.





The question is, who is the Ephraim that the Lord is talking about? The New Testament people of God are the new Israel, since Paul said that Christians are spiritual children of Abraham (Romans 4; Galatians 3:23-29). Therefore, Jesus did come to bring all believers home.
 
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mkgal1

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The Term - "New"
Both the Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) and the Greek kainos (Heb. 8:8) words for "new" may be more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new" in certain contexts.

In the New Testament, of the eight times that "new" is applied to the New Covenant, seven of them use the term kainos - meaning "renewed," or "new in quality," not necessarily time (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:13; 9:15) as opposed to neos (meaning new in time - Heb. 12:24). The use of term kainos means there was a pre-existing covenant to which Jesus gave a qualitative difference.

Oh really?

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Yes, really. chadash is used in Jeremiah 31:31

Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) for "new" may be more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new".​
:
Jeremiah 31:31 Lexicon: "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
 
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mkgal1

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Ah....yes, you're meaning a New Covenant that is FUTURE....right? That would make sense that modern Jews argue that.

But would it make sense to the Apostle Paul?

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

.
 
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Ah....yes, you're meaning a New Covenant that is FUTURE....right? That would make sense that modern Jews argue that.

I wonder how they get past the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 that calculated to the day when the Messiah would come.
 
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The question is, who is the Ephraim that the Lord is talking about? The New Testament people of God are the new Israel, since Paul said that Christians are spiritual children of Abraham (Romans 4; Galatians 3:23-29). Therefore, Jesus did come to bring all believers home.
WE Christians are the Israel of God and Ephraim is one of the twelve divisions of the Lord's people who will live in all of the holy Land. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9, and Romans 9:24-26 says; the Christian people will be called the children of the Living God, in the very same place as ancient Israel were sent away from for their sins.
 
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mkgal1

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That's all off topic. It's difficult enough just discussing divisions within Christianity.

Oh really? I was responding to this written by you:

"Ah....yes, you're meaning a New Covenant that is FUTURE....right? That would make sense that modern Jews argue that."
 
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