Why did God kill the 70,000 men of David’s army?

Ann77 · Jul 15, 2020

These verses were brought to my attention by a gnostic (I don't know too much about what the heck that is).

Anyway, can you guys explain to me what's happening here?

In 2 Samuel 24, we find that King David decided to take a census of the men of fighting age. The prophet Gad was sent to David to announce God’s displeasure with the taking of the census. Then the Lord sends out punishment: “The Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from that morning until the appointed time; and seventy thousand of the people died” (2 Samuel 24:15).

Did God kill 70 thousand for David's sin as the gnostic suggested?

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 15, 2020

I think basically God interpreted that to say David could accept His discipline or that from elsewhere. From nation to individual as from OT to new would be seen in the progression also.

tampasteve · Jul 15, 2020

God was clear from the start that the people were not to be numbered. There are ways that the officials can get around counting people by using coins, etc., but Jews were/are not supposed to count their number. Not long before David made this mistake we see Saul get around by asking the military age men to bring a goat.

David should have known this restriction. It started in the Exodus. David was not following the Word of God and not following the Word resulted in God proving his power in this way, that is part of the covenant they have/had.

public hermit · Jul 15, 2020

tampasteve said:
God was clear from the start that the people were not to be numbered.

Is that right? Compare 2 Samuel 24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1. Notice they both reference the same event except in one it is Satan who moves David to take a census and in the other it is God. Whatever the case, if God was against numbering the people, then God did it anyway.

I think what we have are two different traditions, which disagreed over whether census taking was good or not.

Andrewn · Jul 15, 2020

tampasteve said:
God was clear from the start that the people were not to be numbered. There are ways that the officials can get around counting people by using coins, etc., but Jews were/are not supposed to count their number.

How about Moses counting people in the book of Numbers?

How do they use coins to count people?

tampasteve · Jul 15, 2020

public hermit said:
Is that right? Compare 2 Samuel 24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1. Notice they both reference the same event except in one it is Satan who moves David to take a census and in the other it is God. Whatever the case, if God was against numbering the people, then God did it anyway.

I think what we have are two different traditions, which disagreed over whether census taking was good or not.

There are some that believe that HaSatan (Satan) is a agent of God, this is a particularly strong Jewish tradition as well. It explains this apparent discrepancy as well as most of the book of Job. Just a thought to help explain some difficult passages perhaps...but it does square well here. Alternatively we could look at it as God allows Satan to stir the idea and David follows it.

tampasteve · Jul 15, 2020

Andrewn said:
How about Moses counting people in the book of Numbers?

How do they use coins to count people?

Yes, they used coins. Basically, pass over here and give me a coin. You are counting coins, not people...but the numbers happen to be the same.

Jonathan Walkerin · Jul 15, 2020

tampasteve said:
Yes, they used coins. Basically, pass over here and give me a coin. You are counting coins, not people...but the numbers happen to be the same.

That’s just stupid. You could as easily say you were counting people’s heads and not people, or counting their names, or hearts or brains or totally whatever.

Count everyone’s fingers then divide by ten. Silly. So this clever maneuver caught God off guard and He couldn’t figure out covenant was being broken ?

Ann77 · Jul 15, 2020

This seems plausible:

"As to why God was angry at David, in those times, a man only had the right to count or number what belonged to him. Israel did not belong to David; Israel belonged to God. In Exodus 30:12 God told Moses, “When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them.” It was up to God to command a census, and if David counted he should only do it at God’s command, receiving a ransom to “atone” for the counting. This is why God was angry again with Israel and is also why David was “conscience-stricken” after he counted Israel. David knew it was wrong and begged God to take away the guilt of his sin (2 Samuel 24:10)."

tampasteve · Jul 15, 2020

Jonathan Walkerin said:
That’s just stupid. You could as easily say you were counting people’s heads and not people, or counting their names, or hearts or brains or totally whatever.

Count everyone’s fingers then divide by ten. Silly. So this clever maneuver caught God off guard and He couldn’t figure out covenant was being broken ?

I wouldn't call it stupid. I would call it obedience. Counting body parts would not work, that is still part of a person. Counting other objects works fine though.

You misunderstand that in Judaism it literally is the letter of the Law, God says do or don't do it and that is just the way it is. It does not matter if there is or is not a good reason, it is just the Law, and that is a good enough reason.

They are not trying to trick or be clever, it is just following the Law.

Jonathan Walkerin · Jul 15, 2020

tampasteve said:
I wouldn't call it stupid. I would call it obedience.

So counting people is bad but counting how many names people have is ok ?

Like “we can’t say we are a nation with 100000 people because by law we can’t count them but there happens to be 100000 names on our citizenship rolls so you can draw your own conclusions ? “

What would be the point of such a law ?

JIMINZ · Jul 15, 2020

Ann77 said:
These verses were brought to my attention by a gnostic
Did God kill 70 thousand for David's sin as the gnostic suggested?

I first have to ask, what was the point of the Gnostic pointing this out to you?
Sounds more like you were speaking to Satan trying to weaken your Faith.

Secondly, (YES He did), God said don't and David did, there was sin which had to be Atoned for.

Sort of Like Jesus dying for us, only it was in reverse.

Whereas David sinned and the people paid the consequence, we the people of the Earth sinned and Jesus paid the consequence, both times it resulted in the death of the innocent.

tampasteve · Jul 15, 2020

Jonathan Walkerin said:
So counting people is bad but counting how many names people have is ok ?

Yes, apparently. This is certainly what the passages bear out, isn't it?

What would be the point of such a law ?

I have no idea, it just seems to be what God said and when it was followed things were OK, and when it was not followed they were not.
Deuteronomy 28:1 - If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.

and then

verse 15: However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you

Andrewn · Jul 15, 2020

King Saul counted his army by means of requiring each soldier to submit one shard of pottery, which he then counted, and later on by using kid goats. This was OK with God.

1Sa 11:8; 15:4

Ann77 · Jul 15, 2020

JIMINZ said:
I first have to ask, what was the point of the Gnostic pointing this out to you?
Sounds more like you were speaking to Satan trying to weaken your Faith.

I honestly don't know what he was doing there, I was asking for help from Christians and then he popped in with his creepy and unhelpful reply. Thanks for your answer.

pescador · Jul 15, 2020

public hermit said:
Is that right? Compare 2 Samuel 24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1. Notice they both reference the same event except in one it is Satan who moves David to take a census and in the other it is God. Whatever the case, if God was against numbering the people, then God did it anyway.

I think what we have are two different traditions, which disagreed over whether census taking was good or not.

According to God it obviously wasn't.

pescador · Jul 15, 2020

tampasteve said:
Yes, they used coins. Basically, pass over here and give me a coin. You are counting coins, not people...but the numbers happen to be the same.

God will not be fooled!

Why did God kill the 70,000 men of David’s army?

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