Convince me of Continuationism.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Did you not read my assessment of the Pastorals and why they don't include lots of things, so cannot be used as evidence that the gifts were no longer in operation.

As for Paul's recommendation, you should also consider that Paul talks about the thorn in his flesh in earlier works and the gospels portray Jesus as unable to heal in his hometown. Neither is an indication that the gifts ceased for short periods, but rather that there are caveats to their usage. So even today most sensible Christians will take a paracetamol to cure a headache as well as praying. They don't suddenly think that the gifts of the spirit suddenly overcome common sense.

So it seems that you are imparting a loss of the gifts to the apostle when he actually makes no such claim. Nor does he make any claim that the gifts were departing.

Paul not being able to recommend or refer to how he can heal Timothy is not the sole reason for Cessationism but it is one link in the chain of evidences for it.

I have provided a more fuller list of evidences here:

Cessationism:
Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
(Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.
Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."
The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.
We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).
Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).
While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).
New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:

(a) They were following their favourite human leaders causing divisions. 1:11-14
(b) " " favouring human wisdom. 1:18-2:13
(c) " " carnal, living for self, not controlled by the Spirit. 2:14-3:7
(d) " " forgetting the future Judgment Seat of Christ. 3:8-23
(e) " " proud, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought. 4:1-21
(f) " " failing to discipline, by tolerating a fornicator. 5:1-13
(g) " " taking fellow believers to court. 6:1-20
(h) " " confused about marriage. 7:1-40
(i) " " confused about liberty thinking it meant licence to do as they please, even stumbling others. 8 ,9 ,10.
(j) " " confused about clothing, long hair on men and Lord's Supper. 11
(k). " " confused about spiritual gifts, especially tongues. 12-14
(l) " " confused about the resurrection. 15
(m) " " confused about the collection. 16
As we can see the Corinthian church was deep in error and false doctrine. It was the only church that emphasized tongues as today's Charismatics do. Charismatics therefore place themselves in very bad company. Charismatics fail to understand that Paul is not endorsing tongues, but is rebuking the wrong use of tongues and is strongly regulating tongues contrary to today's Charismatics. Today's emphasis on assemblies with more than on person speaking at the same time is plainly wrong (1 Corinthians 14:27). Paul feared that even one person speaking in tongues without proper interpretation would give the appearance of barbarians or insanity (1 Corinthians 14:11) (1 Corinthians 14:23). What would he think of today's mass hysteria? Today's spontaneous, wild use outside of Scriptural limits is wrong. The gift of prophecy, far superior in every way to tongues, was under the control of the prophets For it is written: “Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns.” (1 Corinthians 14:32) (NLT). So Paul's repeated instructions about the right use of the gift of tongues required it to be a very controllable gift, not a force or power controlling the user. Paul valued 5 words with the understanding rather than 10,000 words without the understanding (i.e. tongues)! So Preaching is far superior in God's purpose and for the churches' profit (1 Corinthians 14:19) (1 Corinthians 14:39). The gifts had a purpose and a place in time. They were to authenticate the church and the New Covenant. But seeing that which is "perfect" has come (the Bible), we do not need any more revelation. The Bible has all the revelation or instruction that we need today.

As for not seeing the obvious problems in the Toronto Blessing event, that does determine if you are qualified or not to argue for Continuationism in my view because I do not consider the events that took place there as being from God. I seen the video footage and it's confusion, and chaos and it in no way depicts what we see in Scripture. Scripture says God is not the author of confusion. Granted, I don't think you should need a Bible to tell you that what took place there is not of God. But I don't expect you to see what I am talking about. No offense: But again, in my view, your not qualified to defend Continuationism if you cannot see such an obvious deception of the enemy. So I will have to wait for somebody else to make their case.

Jesus is YHWH · Jul 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Paul not being able to recommend or refer to how he can heal Timothy is not the sole reason for Cessationism but it is one link in the chain of evidences for it.

I have provided a more fuller list of evidences here:

Cessationism:
Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
(Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?

Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."

The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.

We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).

Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).

While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).

New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show

The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:

(a) They were following their favourite human leaders causing divisions. 1:11-14
(b) " " favouring human wisdom. 1:18-2:13
(c) " " carnal, living for self, not controlled by the Spirit. 2:14-3:7
(d) " " forgetting the future Judgment Seat of Christ. 3:8-23
(e) " " proud, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought. 4:1-21
(f) " " failing to discipline, by tolerating a fornicator. 5:1-13
(g) " " taking fellow believers to court. 6:1-20
(h) " " confused about marriage. 7:1-40
(i) " " confused about liberty thinking it meant licence to do as they please, even stumbling others. 8 ,9 ,10.
(j) " " confused about clothing, long hair on men and Lord's Supper. 11
(k). " " confused about spiritual gifts, especially tongues. 12-14
(l) " " confused about the resurrection. 15
(m) " " confused about the collection. 16
As we can see the Corinthian church was deep in error and false doctrine. It was the only church that emphasized tongues as today's Charismatics do. Charismatics therefore place themselves in very bad company. Charismatics fail to understand that Paul is not endorsing tongues, but is rebuking the wrong use of tongues and is strongly regulating tongues contrary to today's Charismatics. Today's emphasis on assemblies with more than on person speaking at the same time is plainly wrong (1 Corinthians 14:27). Paul feared that even one person speaking in tongues without proper interpretation would give the appearance of barbarians or insanity (1 Corinthians 14:11) (1 Corinthians 14:23). What would he think of today's mass hysteria? Today's spontaneous, wild use outside of Scriptural limits is wrong. The gift of prophecy, far superior in every way to tongues, was under the control of the prophets For it is written: “Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns.” (1 Corinthians 14:32) (NLT). So Paul's repeated instructions about the right use of the gift of tongues required it to be a very controllable gift, not a force or power controlling the user. Paul valued 5 words with the understanding rather than 10,000 words without the understanding (i.e. tongues)! So Preaching is far superior in God's purpose and for the churches' profit (1 Corinthians 14:19) (1 Corinthians 14:39). The gifts had a purpose and a place in time. They were to authenticate the church and the New Covenant. But seeing that which is "perfect" has come (the Bible), we do not need any more revelation. The Bible has all the revelation or instruction that we need today.

As for not seeing the obvious problems in the Toronto Blessing event, that does determine if you are qualified or not to argue for Continuationism in my view because I do not consider the events that took place there as being from God. I seen the video footage and it's confusion, and chaos and it in no way depicts what we see in Scripture. Scripture says God is not the author of confusion. Granted, I don't think you should need a Bible to tell you that what took place there is not of God. But I don't expect you to see what I am talking about. No offense: But again, in my view, your not qualified to defend Continuationism if you cannot see such an obvious deception of the enemy. So I will have to wait for somebody else to make their case.

And we know our enemy appears as an angel of light and deceives, imitates the real Jesus which is why He called them false christs and that if it were possible could deceive the elect via false miracles , signs and wonders.

Pavel Mosko · Jul 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
So far, I see the Continuationist argument to be bankrupt involving Scripture.

I guess it is too bad that Jesus forgot to give an official expiration date when he gave out "the Great Commission" in the Gospels. That is something I would normally expect, it would have saved some people some hand wringing on some of those items and they could have just shifted their attention to the easier items on the bucket list.

Jesus is YHWH · Jul 14, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
I guess it is too bad that Jesus forgot to give an official expiration date when he gave out "the Great Commission" in the Gospels. That is something I would normally expect, it would have saved some people some hand wringing on some of those items and they could have just shifted their attention to the easier items on the bucket list.

What does sharing the gospel have to do with sign gifts ?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
I guess it is too bad that Jesus forgot to give an official expiration date when he gave out "the Great Commission" in the Gospels. That is something I would normally expect, it would have saved some people some hand wringing on some of those items and they could have just shifted their attention to the easier items on the bucket list.

There are certain truths in Scripture that are subtle and not so blatant in that they hit you over the head with them.

“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” (Proverbs 25:2).

Granted, even when certain truths are obvious, some folks just do not want to see them for their own reasons. When the matter is more subtle in Scripture, it makes it even more difficult for people to spiritually discern such truths. Then again, God gets the glory in concealing things.

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” (Matthew 11:25).

Pavel Mosko · Jul 14, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
What does sharing the gospel have to do with sign gifts ?

Oh I don't know try sharing a "Four Spiritual Laws" tract with your Muslim neighbor and see how far it get's ya.

Pavel Mosko · Jul 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
There are certain truths in Scripture that are subtle and no so blatant in that they hit you over the head with them.

“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” (Proverbs 25:2).

Granted, even when certain truths are obvious, some folks just do not want to see them for their own reasons. When the matter is more subtle in Scripture, it makes it even more difficult for people to spiritually discern such truths. Then again, God gets the glory in concealing things.

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” (Matthew 11:25).

I actually almost said something similar to you in the previous post. About the Greek term of Truth, Alethia, objective truth, the Joehari window etc.

Sure on the specifics there are lots of things to hammer Charismatics in the "Devil is in the details" way. And I have done so in the past, when they write out checks they can't cash making scriptural claims and fail, it perfectly fair to hammer them on it. And I have in fact watched this one guy, Justin Peters who you probably know...
I like him and he makes good points. And cite that one saying from Benjamin Franklin, "Our critics are out friends because they show us our faults...."

Anyway I have similar attitudes, most of the time it is about contemplating the mystical truths of the Faith... Now if you consider Cessionism to be one of those things, I would say.. the thread is over.....

Silly Uncle Wayne · Jul 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
As for not seeing the obvious problems in the Toronto Blessing event, that does determine if you are qualified or not to argue for Continuationism in my view because I do not consider the events that took place there as being from God. I seen the video footage and it's confusion, and chaos and it in no way depicts what we see in Scripture. Scripture says God is not the author of confusion. Granted, I don't think you should need a Bible to tell you that what took place there is not of God. But I don't expect you to see what I am talking about.

Well if it disqualifies me because I saw it, then it also disqualifies you for seeing it too!

Bible Highlighter said:
No offense: But again, in my view, your not qualified to defend Continuationism if you cannot see such an obvious deception of the enemy. So I will have to wait for somebody else to make their case.

There are two problems with this.

Firstly you are asking continuationists to explain why and then excluding continuationists who have been involved in the Toronto Blessing. Where next? Exclude all continuationists who have had any experience of supernatural healing and then those who have claimed to have spoken in tongues. That seems poor reasoning to me.

Secondly I never said I approve of the Toronto Blessing. I do not and like you think it is and was a deception of the enemy.

Do I now qualify or is there some other reason for dismissing what I say?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
I actually almost said something similar to you in the previous post. About the Greek term of Truth, Alethia, objective truth, the Joehari window etc.

Sure on the specifics there are lots of things to hammer Charismatics in the "Devil is in the details" way. And I have done so in the past, when they write out checks they can't cash making scriptural claims and fail, it perfectly fair to hammer them on it. And I have in fact watched this one guy, Justin Peters who you probably know...
I like him and he makes good points. And cite that one saying from Benjamin Franklin, "Our critics are out friends because they show us our faults...."

Anyway I have similar attitudes, most of the time it is about contemplating the mystical truths of the Faith... Now if you consider Cessionism to be one of those things, I would say.. the thread is over.....

After watching the video, I definitely side with Justin Peters on this one. But again, while there is a sea of error out there in the Continuationism movement, that may not negate the truth of Continuationism. As I said before, I label it as a mystery (Even though I lean more towards Cessationism because of the evidence in Scripture). If I am misinterpreting the evidence, I am open to others showing me how I am doing so by their showing me Scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Well if it disqualifies me because I saw it, then it also disqualifies you for seeing it too!

There are two problems with this.

Firstly you are asking continuationists to explain why and then excluding continuationists who have been involved in the Toronto Blessing. Where next? Exclude all continuationists who have had any experience of supernatural healing and then those who have claimed to have spoken in tongues. That seems poor reasoning to me.

Secondly I never said I approve of the Toronto Blessing. I do not and like you think it is and was a deception of the enemy.

Do I now qualify or is there some other reason for dismissing what I say?

By your previous post, I got a different impression. Okay, I am glad you see that the Toronto Blessing was not of God. Do you know that at the Azusa street revival that similar things had happened there?

Yet, the Azusa street revival is said to be the birth of Pentecostalism today. Yes, I know you think the Latter Rain occured before. But others think it occured at the Azusa street revival. In any event, my point here is that if Continuationism is indeed true, it should be separate and holy from this questionable event in history.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
And we know our enemy appears as an angel of light and deceives, imitates the real Jesus which is why He called them false christs and that if it were possible could deceive the elect via false miracles , signs and wonders.

All we can do sometimes is pray for those who do not see the error at the Toronto blessings and other like events that are similar.

nolidad · Jul 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
What is the meaning of "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13?

Well, I believe we will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

"And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

"As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
(1 John 3:2-3).

To all:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

Jesus said,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

This would be us today with the Bible.
We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).

Side Note:

The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.

When I speak of how we must obey God's laws: I am referring primarily to how we must obey those commands in the New Testament, and not the Old Testament. Things like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, the Passover, etc. are ceremonial laws that are no longer binding upon the life of the believer today under the New Covenant. We should focus on obeying those commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

Well all you see is true, but not part of what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 13 about face to face.

Just simply we can only see partially now and can only behold a patial image, but when we stand before Jesus we will see clearly (face to face) with no dark glasses or veils or human imperfection.

BTW The phrase when the perfect is come? The verb is the 2nd aorist active subjunctive which means that the action will happen but we do not know when (todays english way of saying it)

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

nolidad said:
Well all you see is true, but not part of what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 13 about face to face.

Just simply we can only see partially now and can only behold a patial image, but when we stand before Jesus we will see clearly (face to face) with no dark glasses or veils or human imperfection.

BTW The phrase when the perfect is come? The verb is the 2nd aorist active subjunctive which means that the action will happen but we do not know when (todays english way of saying it)

Love is the theme of the 1 Corinthians 13, and it is a warm up to 1 Corinthians 14 about putting away childish things such as speaking gibberish language without an interpreter present. For to edify the church with meaning is loving towards our fellow brethren. Paul is making a case for love and how there will be a time when we as believers will put away childish things. This speaks to the infancy of the early church in it being like a baby and it will one day grow up and not have any need for any tongues to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20). The idea here is that we will not be children only while here on this Earth. The church should naturally mature here on this Earth (even if the numbers may not be exactly the same).

In light of this context: The face to face is in reference to how we look through a glass darkly (or a mirror darkly). If you ever went into a dark bathroom before with just a little bit of light, you can see the silhouette of your face, but your face is in entire black due to the darkness. In this example: You are looking through a mirror darkly while you are seeing yourself face to face (i.e. a reflective image of your face with your real face). Romans 8:29 says, “to be conformed to the image of his Son,”; This is only possible if we receive instruction in righteousness by God's Word (Scripture) (See: 2 Timothy 3:16-17). The Corinthian church was facing several serious errors, and it did not sound like Paul was saying that they were going to see Jesus in their current sinful state. 1 Corinthians 13-14 is a rebuke towards the Corinthians. When the perfect comes (When the Bible is completed) more in the body of Christ will see the error that had befallen the Corinthians. They will see Christ in their lives by looking in the mirror more clearly because they have a complete Bible to see a bigger picture of Jesus within the Word vs. their own walk with Christ.

nolidad · Jul 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Love is the theme of the 1 Corinthians 13, and it is a warm up to 1 Corinthians 14 about putting away childish things such as speaking gibberish language without an interpreter present. For to edify the church with meaning is loving towards our fellow brethren. Paul is making a case for love and how there will be a time when we as believers will put away childish things. This speaks to the infancy of the early church in it being like a baby and it will one day grow up and not have any need for any tongues to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20). The idea here is that we will not be children only while here on this Earth. The church should naturally mature here on this Earth (even if the numbers may not be exactly the same).

In light of this context: The face to face is in reference to how we look through a glass darkly (or a mirror darkly). If you ever went into a dark bathroom before with just a little bit of light, you can see the silhouette of your face, but your face is in entire black due to the darkness. In this example: You are looking through a mirror darkly while you are seeing yourself face to face (i.e. a reflective image of your face with your real face). Romans 8:29 says, “to be conformed to the image of his Son,”; This is only possible if we receive instruction in righteousness by God's Word (Scripture) (See: 2 Timothy 3:16-17). The Corinthian church was facing several serious errors, and it did not sound like Paul was saying that they were going to see Jesus in their current sinful state. 1 Corinthians 13-14 is a rebuke towards the Corinthians. When the perfect comes (When the Bible is completed) more in the body of Christ will see the error that had befallen the Corinthians. They will see Christ in their lives by looking in the mirror more clearly because they have a complete Bible to see a bigger picture of Jesus within the Word vs. their own walk with Christ.

Love is the major theme without a doubt! Paul concludes the Chapter as saying that love is the only thing that never fails and we know that means god!

Everything else we do is only in part and done through "sunglasses" so to speak. We are finite and do not see nor can we understand the Infinite yet! But we will when we stand for all eternity with the Lord!

Carl Emerson · Jul 14, 2020

Is there not an issue that underpins this discussion...

Does not the understanding of what is God's Word come into the argument?

Is it true that cessationism is trying to protect the notion that God's Word became restricted to what is read in the pages of the bible and that He no longer speaks in any other way.

Is this not the real argument here.

Are not cessationists reading scripture through this lense.

Frankly I understand the role scripture takes as a final reference to truth but I have never believed that it is His only way of speaking and that He chose to adopt an extrabiblical silence.

I treasure His conversational relationship with me and His 'speaking through the awe and beauty of nature - like the Psalmists...

I dont believe we can mount a case for His Word ceasing because the bible was written.

Adding to or modifying the inspired scripture is a cursable offence but this does not mean He ceases to speak in other ways.

So this issue is beneath the discussion and insists God no longer speaks apart from through the physical pages of the bible. Therefore tongues have ceased, prophesy has ceased etc.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

While God can speak in a way via by nature, it is not where we derive core doctrine, core instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work. Now stop for a moment and think. If we can be perfect unto all good works via by Scripture according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17, then what on Earth can anything else offer us? More visions? More prophecies? Surely not. The Bible even ends with warnings not to add to the prophecy of this book. Revelation is the closing book of the Bible that we know today. We do not separate Revelation from the other books of the bible. All the books of the BIble breath together as a whole. God ultimately wants us to trust in His Word. No doubt there will be tests for us believers to trust in His Word. I choose the Bible as my final and only word of authority in matters of the faith. God has already spoken to me plenty with the Bible, and I know He will continue to do so. For the moment we accept another vision, or revelation is the moment we can be the next JW cult, etc.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I am on the fence between Cessationism and Continuationism.
While I lean more towards Cessationism, I do consider the possibility that Continuationism could be true. My biblical case for Cessationism can be found here:

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Can you rebuttal the points I made in this thread?
Can you also make a good case for Continuationism?

Shouldn't this be done in person?

a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign. Matthew 12:39

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Shouldn't this be done in person?

a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign. Matthew 12:39

First, I am not Jewish and thus I am not seeking after a sign.

Second, I fail to see how a discussion on the truth online changes the dynamic of things if it is in person. Then again, you are not the first Continuationist in this thread to suggest that this kind of discussion is not good or beneficial. What do folks have to fear?

Gregory Thompson · Jul 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
First, I am not Jewish and thus I am not seeking after a sign.

Second, I fail to see how a discussion on the truth online changes the dynamic of things if it is in person. Then again, you are not the first Continuationist in this thread to suggest that this kind of discussion is not good or beneficial. What do folks have to fear?

That was just the passage that came to mind when I was posting.

In a sense however, you would need to see someone exercise the gifts, and experience the Holy Spirit in their operation in service to you in order to be convinced.

Since the gifts operate by faith, the following passage may be the result however,

And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith. (Matthew 13:58)

He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. (Mark 6:5)

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2020

Michael Collum said:
That was just the passage that came to mind when I was posting.

In a sense however, you would need to see someone exercise the gifts, and experience the Holy Spirit in their operation in service to you in order to be convinced.

Since the gifts operate by faith, the following passage may be the result however,

And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith. (Matthew 13:58)

He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. (Mark 6:5)

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

If Continuationism is a part of the faith (i.e. God's Word or Scripture), then we should have no problem demonstrating its truthfulness from the Scriptures and bring down any teaching that runs contrary to that.

While I am not suggesting that you or anyone else trying to convince me is not genuine, I still do not know if they are with 100% certainty. Jesus warned that even the enemy can bring forth false miracles to deceive. So my confirmation of the truth is not in the miracle but it is in what God's Word says. I know His Word is true. So this is where the truth must be determined.

Convince me of Continuationism.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

my Lord and my God !

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

my Lord and my God !

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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