Asking Christians: How is killing all the first born sons of egypt moral?

JohnDB · Jul 14, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Why did God kill the firstborn?

According to what I read in Exodus 11:4-8, one purpose was to make a distinction between the Egyptians and God's people > Exodus 11:4-8. No Jewish child died.

Also, the LORD said to Moses that He intended to multiply His wonders in Egypt, so Pharaoh would know the LORD is God. So, God did care what Pharaoh thought, I can see from this. Even though God is so superior to us humans, yes He cares how we feel about Him. So, God is not conceited, if He cares about us; He even does answer to us; He answered to Pharaoh by His actions, not only His words. Conceited humans, though, can feel they answer to no one.

He had already told Pharaoh, but Pharaoh possibly demanded evidence. And so God gave him evidence, but he was not able to relate to it. So, then God gave Pharaoh evidence that he could relate to.

"Be careful what you ask for, because you may get it."

So, in a way, who really killed the children? And look what happened to a lot of those Egyptian men, later > they died in the Red Sea.

People insist we have free will. Well, there are ways we can effect what becomes of our children. And then we can blame someone else . . . including God. If God is not sovereign, why to free will claiming blame God?

Now, not all Bible claiming people believe all children are innocent. God's word says that before we trusted in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12), we were His "enemies" (Romans 5:10). So, if people believe all children start off innocent and then become "enemies" (Romans 5:10) . . . that would be a major change to happen in every child. My understanding at this time is every unborn person is a seed of who and how he or she will become later. No one starts as a saint in the womb, but then becomes an evil person. But if we become born of God and His love, by trusting in Jesus, our Father starts us fresh in His love and corrects us to become children of His all-loving love.

And it seems clear the LORD is saying the Egyptians were not His people > that would include the children. He made such a distinction, including by the death of children who were not His people. This can help to show how we do need to get saved by Jesus.

A lot of things of the Old Testament are an object lesson, about how things can be without Jesus. What if we were without police? Yes, police might at times rightly and selectively kill someone; but what if there were no police??

But Jesus was with His disciples, one time, when people of an area rejected them. And "James and John" asked Jesus if they should call down "fire" to destroy those people. And what did Jesus do?

"But He turned and rebuked them, and said, 'You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them.' And they went to another village." (in Luke 9:51-56)

So, Jesus does care about our lives. And Jesus is God as His Son . . . perfectly all who God is.

But there is judgment. And if a human of any age is without God and how He has us loving > "He who loves his life will lose it," Jesus says in John 12:25. Without Jesus, they would lose their lives, one way or another.

So, much of the early scriptures give us object lessons of how things can go, without Jesus: even God Himself did marvelous wonders and so proved Himself; yet even His own people left Him, a number of times. So, without His Son Jesus, even what God Himself does can not work!

But ones will demand more evidence and could get it. And still they might be like Pharaoh and end like he did.

Because, actually, the real proof is how Jesus in us shares all His own good of His love with us > "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

The small portion of the conversation we are having is just that...a very small portion.
You have to go back and see the entire discussion we were having to see exactly what we were talking about without isolating this one small part to understand why I said what I did.

tbstor · Jul 14, 2020

Nyatalia said:
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Wouldnt that violate free will? I think God is not supposed to do it.

Reformed theology doesn't hold to the notion of free will. They believe in predestination. Another quote from Calvin's Institutes:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Section 4)

Nyatalia · Jul 14, 2020

JohnDB said:
The small portion of the conversation we are having is just that...a very small portion.
You have to go back and see the entire discussion we were having to see exactly what we were talking about without isolating this one small part to understand why I said what I did.

I dont understand your point too well. I got a satisfactory answer from one of the member already. thank you.

JohnDB · Jul 14, 2020

Nyatalia said:
I dont understand your point too well. I got a satisfactory answer from one of the member already. thank you.

Where/what point did I lose you at?

Job3315 · Jul 14, 2020

Nyatalia said:
According to my understanding, God punished them for enslaving jews, and this is one of the punishment. Why did God punishing innocent kids instead of adults who did the enslaving?

Some of the common responses are 1."Morality does not apply to God" If that's the case, how do to condemn jihad in Islam? They are not bound by morality because they believe God tell them to do it. 2."God is not supposed to be a role model" But Jesus is role model, And Jesus is God. 3."Grand plans, killing to the kids are necessary to achieve it" God is omnipotent. Hard to believe avoiding killing innocent kids is impossible for the omnipotent to achieve the grand place. Thank you for reading in advance. I got banned on another forum asking this.

It was a consequence of their disobedience. God gave them a way out, but they refused to let His people go. In the Old Testament, the children carried the sins of their fathers, so the children were the same as their fathers. The children were going to become adults as evil as their previous generation.

Sophrosyne · Jul 14, 2020

1)God asked Pharaoh to let his people go, he wanted him to choose to do so
2)God hardened his heart so his emotions wouldn't be influenced he would not do it as a person but rather as what he was proclaimed to be: An Egyptian god. It is one thing to do something out of pity and compassion another to do something because you agree it is a good thing.
3)Pharaoh refused to do what God asked so God sent plagues and kept demanding him to let his people go.
4)Pharaoh refused and rejected all miracles because of his desire to remain as a "god" and powerful ruler if he would have allowed the people to go worship someone else than him it would weaken his power.
5)God gave him plenty of chances and had to resort to the final chance, killing the first born of Egypt.
6)Pharaoh finally did what God asked as his hardened heart broke at the death of his son I believe if Pharaoh has not let them go he would have sent another plague that could have killed Pharaoh even wiped out all of Egypt.
7)Killing the first born is more than just an act of power, it also can be looking ahead to the future. If you kill all the sons of your enemies when your enemies die either by the hand of you or whatever they have less or noone to take over what they were doing.
I also see it as a reflection of God, sacrificing Pharoahs son saved Egypt as God may have destroyed them all who were sinners and lost (like we are without Jesus). Also by killing Pharaoh's son it ended his line of succession through that son. It breaks his power that would continue for good.
As God can see the future and what children who would grow up to be, it is likely if Pharaoh was the one who died his son would take over and kill all God's people.

Hazelelponi · Jul 14, 2020

Nyatalia said:
According to my understanding, God punished them for enslaving jews, and this is one of the punishment. Why did God punishing innocent kids instead of adults who did the enslaving?

Some of the common responses are 1."Morality does not apply to God" If that's the case, how do to condemn jihad in Islam? They are not bound by morality because they believe God tell them to do it. 2."God is not supposed to be a role model" But Jesus is role model, And Jesus is God. 3."Grand plans, killing to the kids are necessary to achieve it" God is omnipotent. Hard to believe avoiding killing innocent kids is impossible for the omnipotent to achieve the grand place. Thank you for reading in advance. I got banned on another forum asking this.

Since I saw no satisfactory answer to your question on page 1, I will offer one here.

First, according to what is known as the Coffin Text, a text written on some coffins and funerary walls of Egyptian nobility from the old kingdom, the slaying of the first born (of either gods, mortals or animals) has its existence in Egytian lore in some form and was in some way representative of an expected judgement against Egyptian nobility, both living and dead. (read also "The Smiting of the First-Born — An Egyptian Myth?" by Mordechai Gilula)

In Numbers 33:4 we are told that the Egyptians buried those who had died by the tenth plague, by which plague “the Lord executed judgments against their gods.”

Which is in line with both the Coffin Texts and the view that the plagues was a condemnation of the Egyptian gods.

You say "innocent children" were harmed, but my first born son is an adult, and the text is simply the first born without reference to age. So we are looking specifically at a group, the first born, without regard to age. Many within this group would be full grown adults, perhaps even the largest percentage of those who died.

As for the children, of which there would have been a few, we see this in our modern times as casualties of war. Pharaoh was given chance after chance to relent and He refused, even knowing how powerless he was against what was happening...

So we might ask, whose hands is this blood upon? Should God have left Israel in Egyptian slavery forever in order for no child to be harmed, in so doing proving the Egyptian gods the more powerful and the ones to be worshipped?

In every war there are casualties, and this is a war Pharaoh himself waged against God believing himself and his gods to be more powerful. It's not logical to leave Israel in captivity, because it was their blood on God's hands if He did nothing to free them when He could have removed them from the situation after they learned their own lessons from the captivity.

Ultimately, this taught all involved just who the Hebrew God was... whether they heeded that lesson is another matter.

Why Did God Slay the Firstborn? - Israel Bible Weekly

durangodawood · Jul 14, 2020

There's no way a God we can call "good" would do this unless you basically murder the word "good".

Why do believers insist on calling God "good" anyway? It seems to limit Him to acceptable human norms of action.

Strathos · Jul 14, 2020

JohnDB said:
And you don't know the half of it.

The Egyptians were one of the few who had written language. (Ugarit and I'm forgetting the other 2) At any rate they also used a solar calendar because they had an understanding of basic calculus. Now with this kind of knowledge they could accurately predict Solar and lunar eclipses.

So...at just the right time the Egyptians would call for an assembly of the Hebrews and let them know that Pharaoh was upset and was going to do something.

And sure enough Pharaoh would blast them for being so lazy...they needed to work harder...and because of their laziness he was going to take away the Sun.
Of course these ignorant Hebrews would cry out apologizing for their poor behavior...but sure enough the sun went into eclipse behind the moon....which made them cry out even more... And finally Pharaoh would forgive them if only they promised to really work hard and the solar eclipse would end. To those who didn't know any better it was a great display of power.

But then came Moses...
He had a different view of things. He spoke for the real God...kinda upset the apple cart. It certainly upset the Pharaohs.

I've never heard of a historical record of the Ancient Egyptians doing such a thing, nor is there any evidence that they had the capability to accurately predict solar eclipses.

Paul4JC · Jul 14, 2020

The thing here is that God could have neatly kept all the difficult verses and passages out of the Bible, but he didn't. He could have said, "let's not put those verses in cause, it'll make me look bad."
The Bible is not edited to appease you or me. It is the Word of God. Understanding it, now that's a whole different matter as many look for excuses not to believe it, and are quick to jump to any conclusions.

Heb 4:12-13 NIV - 12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Oompa Loompa · Jul 14, 2020

Nyatalia said:
According to my understanding, God punished them for enslaving jews, and this is one of the punishment. Why did God punishing innocent kids instead of adults who did the enslaving?

Some of the common responses are 1."Morality does not apply to God" If that's the case, how do to condemn jihad in Islam? They are not bound by morality because they believe God tell them to do it. 2."God is not supposed to be a role model" But Jesus is role model, And Jesus is God. 3."Grand plans, killing to the kids are necessary to achieve it" God is omnipotent. Hard to believe avoiding killing innocent kids is impossible for the omnipotent to achieve the grand place. Thank you for reading in advance. I got banned on another forum asking this.

Edit: question answered: God might killed the kids painlessly and sent them to heaven.

Short answer. Because God killed the kids. But based on the tone of the question, it doesn't seem like the OP is willing to understand why.

Tinker Grey · Jul 14, 2020

Oompa Loompa said:
But based on the tone of the question, it doesn't seem like the OP is willing to understand why.

Then you haven't read the thread. @Nyatalia has been more than conciliatory toward Christianity and says shes drawn to it.

Oompa Loompa · Jul 14, 2020

Tinker Grey said:
Then you haven't read the thread. @Nyatalia has been more than conciliatory toward Christianity and says shes drawn to it.

True...i have not read the entire thread. It is just that normally these are not questions to be answered, but argued.

JackRT · Jul 14, 2020

Is it possible for one to worship a God when one regards the morality of that God as less than one's own morality?

DebbieJ · Jul 14, 2020

Nyatalia said:
According to my understanding, God punished them for enslaving jews, and this is one of the punishment. Why did God punishing innocent kids instead of adults who did the enslaving?

Not because of that. Pharaoh ordered all Hebrew baby boys to be killed. The law was an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Whatever measure you used, it will be measured back to you.

You kill my baby, I'll kill yours. That simple.

Some of the common responses are 1."Morality does not apply to God" I

This is not about morality, this is about justice. People forget that the Lord is also a judge. The Egyptians deserved what they got.

Tinker Grey · Jul 14, 2020

DebbieJ said:
Not because of that. Pharaoh ordered all Hebrew baby boys to be killed. The law was an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Whatever measure you used, it will be measured back to you.

You kill my baby, I'll kill yours. That simple.

This is not about morality, this is about justice. People forget that the Lord is also a judge. The Egyptians deserved what they got.

See. Children are property. Their deaths are property damage.

DebbieJ · Jul 15, 2020

If you were a Hebrew parent during those times and having your baby boy being snatched away from you just to get decapitated, burned, stabbed, drowned right in front of your eyes, being fed piece by piece to crocodiles, I'm sure you'll be horrified, traumatized, and psychologically scared for life. There's no justice, there are no law enforcers to protect you, no lawyers to defend you, and no judges. You are left on your own, helpless. They could take away your life at any time at any place for any reason they please. That's the life of a typical Hebrew under Pharaoh.

We always look at history as if ancient people are living in the comforts and safety like in our modern times. We have the police, we have lawyers, and we have the justice system to protect our rights and defend us. We think Pharaohs and ancient Kings are like our leaders today -- doing things diplomatically, respecting human rights, having flowery speeches, and etc. Pharaohs are used to violence, blood, and slaughter. They wouldn't think twice or grow faint.

They deserved what they got -- all the plagues and deaths. Justice is served and the Hebrew families can start to heal. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

Jok · Jul 15, 2020

Nyatalia said:
I ask because i dont want to think God committed murder of innocents. There has to be an explanation

Everyone dies. Life is just chapter 1. Everyone’s chapter #1 expires. If God is the author of chapter 1 along with every chapter that follows it, then it would not be analogous to say that God murders people if their chapter #1 expires in the same way that a person would murder someone by killing them. As far as this plague goes, if nobody survives chapter #1 anyway, crossing over in an instant into
chapter 2 is a pretty favorable way to go IMO.

klutedavid · Jul 15, 2020

Nyatalia said:
According to my understanding, God punished them for enslaving jews, and this is one of the punishment. Why did God punishing innocent kids instead of adults who did the enslaving?

Some of the common responses are 1."Morality does not apply to God" If that's the case, how do to condemn jihad in Islam? They are not bound by morality because they believe God tell them to do it. 2."God is not supposed to be a role model" But Jesus is role model, And Jesus is God. 3."Grand plans, killing to the kids are necessary to achieve it" God is omnipotent. Hard to believe avoiding killing innocent kids is impossible for the omnipotent to achieve the grand place. Thank you for reading in advance. I got banned on another forum asking this.

Edit: question answered: God might killed the kids painlessly and sent them to heaven.

These children were created by God and they belong to Him. It is not my place to question His authority on such matters, doing so, is way above my pay scale.

He could eradicate us all if He chose to do that.

The universe and life are His alone. It's only logical.

durangodawood · Jul 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
These children were created by God and they belong to Him. It is not my place to question His authority on such matters, doing so, is way above my pay scale...

Killing children to pay for the sins of their parents... if its "good" that God did this, then we've lost our grip on the word "good". There's no saying what good means anymore.

Asking Christians: How is killing all the first born sons of egypt moral?

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