That's the spirit I like about Christianity. I dont think i will ever be able to love them. At least i can try to not hate them. It's a more healthy mindset
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Asking Christians: How is killing all the first born sons of egypt moral?
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I agree Christianity is more likely to be true, because i believe in a good God. God is terrible at making us suffer if he is bad. and he should be competent. Therefore bad God is very unlikely. Christian God is much better than Islam God.
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And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Wouldnt that violate free will? I think God is not supposed to do it.
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God takes His complete sovereignty very seriously.
The Ten Plagues of Egypt—also known as the Ten Plagues, the Plagues of Egypt, or the Biblical Plagues—are described in Exodus 7—12. The plagues were ten disasters sent upon Egypt by God to convince Pharaoh to free the Israelite slaves from the bondage and oppression they had endured in Egypt for 400 years. When God sent Moses to deliver the children of Israel from bondage in Egypt, He promised to show His wonders as confirmation of Moses’ authority (Exodus 3:20). This confirmation was to serve at least two purposes: to show the Israelites that the God of their fathers was alive and worthy of their worship and to show the Egyptians that their gods were nothing.
Indeed Pharaoh had 9 plaques (before sending forth the 10th) and therefore was given plenty opportunity to let the people go.
Yet ... he had a hardened heart. Pretty much an example of being in and remaining in a blasphemous state ... of which there is no forgiveness.
Regarding the innocents ... do not ever forget God has the power of resurrection ... I have no doubt that all innocent children for all time will be in the 1st resurrection.
It's not completely over yet ... and will not be until the return of our Lord.
and they are in error .... murder (by mankind) in any manner is not acceptable ... ie ... take it upon themselves who they will murder. This is displayed ... in their belief being largely Anti-Semitic ... ie ... in open hostility and direct opposition to the people of the God of the Holy Bible.
Understand the major difference between sovereign divine judgement and "acts" that men commit with their own hands ... according to their own thinking ... and not according to His Holy Word.
There are also stories in the bible where yes ... God did command His people to war on other people and destroy them ... and also ... even divine judgement on His own people ... He knows everything ... we do not.
He has divine purposes all working towards the final end ... He knows the beginning to the end (we do not) ... He reveals some/much of His divine purposes ... we do not fully understand everything ... but we do trust in Him ... fully ... as He is our creator, loves us and through it all everything will be restored completely to those who love Him.
It's not over yet!
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My answer is a variation on #1. Specifically, God is not bound to our conceptions of morality.
As a very crude metaphor, my dog has been sick for a pretty long time now. So my wife and I have to apply medicine to her face each day. To the dog, it's not a pleasant experience and she probably doesn't understand why we make her uncomfortable every day and put her through such an unpleasant time.
However, applying the medicine is gradually making her better. There are clear and obvious signs of improvement. She may not be fully aware of all that. But my wife and I are. My dog probably hates getting the medicine put on her face every day but the medicine serves a higher good. We see it, the dog doesn't.
God did what He did. As with my dog, there could be an angle here that we humans with finite knowledge and finite vision can't see. Now, might there have been a different way to handle the problems in Egypt? Perhaps. But is God obligated to use it? Not necessarily. Pharaoh was likely beyond the point of no return even before God talked to Moses. God gave blessing to Egypt because of Joseph. And Egypt responded to that by enslaving the Hebrews. Looks to me like Egypt was under judgment long before God talked to Moses, long before God hardened Pharaoh's heart, long before the plagues, long before any of it.
How, then, can God's character on display in Egypt be reconciled with a condemnation of jihad? Well, for starters, God is not bound to the morality given to men. But obviously, men are. And there's a lot of mercy on display in the plagues of Egypt. There's a strong argument that Egypt got off lightly, all things considered. The city was not uninhabitable after the plagues. The first born may have died but others survived. They were given a chance for repentance.
By comparison, radical Islamic terrorists aren't exactly famous for intentionally leaving survivors behind and giving them a chance to repent.
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I agree action directly by god is different from men following god's order. Not a good comparison by my part. We can say if we are enemy of allah, let him deal with it, not terrorist. I agree god can be beyond morality as we understand. But if that is the case. Wouldnt be better for God to tell us what's the deeper reasoning behind them? This way more people can appreciate the good of god.
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JohnDB
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Ok...
To step into this... lightly but firmly.
God is good. God is always good. God is so good that He is holy.
God cannot be bad because He is too busy being good.
Killing children is bad.
Now since you are jumping ahead into the book of Exodus and never learned the requisite lessons that preceded this story in Genesis you didn't learn the lessons taught there that the crux of this answer which started in the third chapter.
And the basics are...
Holiness is a state of existence. It can apply to objects, people, and systems.
There are levels of holiness...three that the scriptures allude to.
The universe itself is a holy system. Created by God it is perfect. And we would have absolutely nothing to fear if we were holy.
But we aren't.
The Earth is constantly after us to remove us (because of sin) from itself so it can return to its state of being holy.
God protects us by a literary device termed "common grace". Where it isn't exactly "common" in the least, it is for lack of better language available the best way to describe it. (grace is a good thing) Now this common grace has limits. People can exceed the limitations of this grace all the time...but then people do get Darwin Awards every year.
Mankind, as a whole, usually forgets and doesn't even recognize when something is holy. Unless there is a neon sign with a huge arrow pointing no one recognizes the common grace they regularly receive. (There isn't, I've looked)
Now...part of the definition of holy is that it is reserved for special use because it belongs to God. Meaning that unauthorized use, touching, demeaning, damaging or even simply viewing is sin.
With all that in mind...
Now we can look accurately at the Hebrews in Egypt.
They were reserved as a holy people/nation reserved for use by God to achieve His purposes. But the Egyptians enslaved them for use as "free labor". The Pharos ordered that the male babies were to be thrown in the river. Their "Free" labor was to be made even more difficult by whatever means possible. (Bricks without straw) which is tantamount to abuse.
All the while God was waiting for the right moment to bring them out of Egypt...and extending the Egyptians an extra measure of undeserving favor...lulling them into a false sense of security.
Until the day came that God lifted it in various ways with the plagues... including the death of the firstborn Egyptian children.
(The first of anything belongs to God)
But basically the Earth finally was allowed to react to the serious nature of the activities of the Egyptians.
So where yes, as a Hebrew idiom of speech the scriptures say that God killed the children...it's just an idiom. Hebrew language is a metaphoric language to begin with...and there are usually more nuances to what is being said than any translation can begin to cover. English is the worst receptor language of any of them.
To step into this... lightly but firmly.
God is good. God is always good. God is so good that He is holy.
God cannot be bad because He is too busy being good.
Killing children is bad.
Now since you are jumping ahead into the book of Exodus and never learned the requisite lessons that preceded this story in Genesis you didn't learn the lessons taught there that the crux of this answer which started in the third chapter.
And the basics are...
Holiness is a state of existence. It can apply to objects, people, and systems.
There are levels of holiness...three that the scriptures allude to.
The universe itself is a holy system. Created by God it is perfect. And we would have absolutely nothing to fear if we were holy.
But we aren't.
The Earth is constantly after us to remove us (because of sin) from itself so it can return to its state of being holy.
God protects us by a literary device termed "common grace". Where it isn't exactly "common" in the least, it is for lack of better language available the best way to describe it. (grace is a good thing) Now this common grace has limits. People can exceed the limitations of this grace all the time...but then people do get Darwin Awards every year.
Mankind, as a whole, usually forgets and doesn't even recognize when something is holy. Unless there is a neon sign with a huge arrow pointing no one recognizes the common grace they regularly receive. (There isn't, I've looked)
Now...part of the definition of holy is that it is reserved for special use because it belongs to God. Meaning that unauthorized use, touching, demeaning, damaging or even simply viewing is sin.
With all that in mind...
Now we can look accurately at the Hebrews in Egypt.
They were reserved as a holy people/nation reserved for use by God to achieve His purposes. But the Egyptians enslaved them for use as "free labor". The Pharos ordered that the male babies were to be thrown in the river. Their "Free" labor was to be made even more difficult by whatever means possible. (Bricks without straw) which is tantamount to abuse.
All the while God was waiting for the right moment to bring them out of Egypt...and extending the Egyptians an extra measure of undeserving favor...lulling them into a false sense of security.
Until the day came that God lifted it in various ways with the plagues... including the death of the firstborn Egyptian children.
(The first of anything belongs to God)
But basically the Earth finally was allowed to react to the serious nature of the activities of the Egyptians.
So where yes, as a Hebrew idiom of speech the scriptures say that God killed the children...it's just an idiom. Hebrew language is a metaphoric language to begin with...and there are usually more nuances to what is being said than any translation can begin to cover. English is the worst receptor language of any of them.
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In today's world, perhaps. We have a much greater understanding of science, modern western civilization stands on the shoulders of some of the greatest philosophers and statesmen in history, etc. Today, there's a chance that we might be able to grasp God's motives.
But, first, that's not guaranteed. His ways may be as mysterious to us today as they would've been to the ancients. I have ventured a guess here as to why God did what He did. But it's my own opinion; I could be 100% wrong, which everybody should keep in mind.
Second, even if we today could understand God's reasons for doing what He did back then, there's still a strong argument against revealing that information. Because people in the past wouldn't have understood God's reasons as they would've been presented in Sacred Scripture.
In the final analysis, this is something we may never fully understand on this side of the veil. To rise above the weeds a little bit, God has established His moral law. He judges us. We do not judge Him. Thus, I believe it is probably better to let God be God and obey His law the best we can. For everything else, maybe there will be answers some day.
But maybe not.
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Does it mean we should not take old testament seriously because anything there can be a metaphor? I find what actions by god before Jesus disturbing.
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"as a Hebrew idiom of speech the scriptures say that God killed the children...it's just an idiom. Hebrew language is a metaphoric language to begin with...and there are usually more nuances to what is being said than any translation can begin to cover. "
Old testament is written in hebrew(i can be wrong here), therefore metaphoric
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JohnDB
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The Hebrew idiom of speech about God killing the firstborn...
Look at it carefully. How is it exactly stated?
Look at all the things that this one simple statement says while not saying it explicitly.
"Passover" is the holiday that covers this event in Hebrew culture...as in the Messenger of Death passed over our house and did not stop here.
Scriptures are not for flat, surface reading... never were intended to be such.
When the Torah was first penned paper and ink were very expensive and limited. Written books were even more so. A small book would cost a years wages or more. You expected value for that kind of money and "common knowledge" was left out. Things would be expressed in as few words as possible...but also the Torah is written in poetic fashion... meaning that it was easy to memorize. It's still sung by Jews to this day when reading it.
None of which translates into English when we read it...so these nuances, idioms of speech, and anthropology must be studied for true understanding beyond the flat reading.
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com7fy8
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Why did God kill the firstborn?
According to what I read in Exodus 11:4-8, one purpose was to make a distinction between the Egyptians and God's people > Exodus 11:4-8. No Jewish child died.
Also, the LORD said to Moses that He intended to multiply His wonders in Egypt, so Pharaoh would know the LORD is God. So, God did care what Pharaoh thought, I can see from this. Even though God is so superior to us humans, yes He cares how we feel about Him. So, God is not conceited, if He cares about us; He even does answer to us; He answered to Pharaoh by His actions, not only His words. Conceited humans, though, can feel they answer to no one.
He had already told Pharaoh, but Pharaoh possibly demanded evidence. And so God gave him evidence, but he was not able to relate to it. So, then God gave Pharaoh evidence that he could relate to.
"Be careful what you ask for, because you may get it."
So, in a way, who really killed the children? And look what happened to a lot of those Egyptian men, later > they died in the Red Sea.
People insist we have free will. Well, there are ways we can effect what becomes of our children. And then we can blame someone else . . . including God. If God is not sovereign, why to free will claiming blame God?
Now, not all Bible claiming people believe all children are innocent. God's word says that before we trusted in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12), we were His "enemies" (Romans 5:10). So, if people believe all children start off innocent and then become "enemies" (Romans 5:10) . . . that would be a major change to happen in every child. My understanding at this time is every unborn person is a seed of who and how he or she will become later. No one starts as a saint in the womb, but then becomes an evil person. But if we become born of God and His love, by trusting in Jesus, our Father starts us fresh in His love and corrects us to become children of His all-loving love.
And it seems clear the LORD is saying the Egyptians were not His people > that would include the children. He made such a distinction, including by the death of children who were not His people. This can help to show how we do need to get saved by Jesus.
A lot of things of the Old Testament are an object lesson, about how things can be without Jesus. What if we were without police? Yes, police might at times rightly and selectively kill someone; but what if there were no police??
But Jesus was with His disciples, one time, when people of an area rejected them. And "James and John" asked Jesus if they should call down "fire" to destroy those people. And what did Jesus do?
"But He turned and rebuked them, and said, 'You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them.' And they went to another village." (in Luke 9:51-56)
So, Jesus does care about our lives. And Jesus is God as His Son . . . perfectly all who God is.
But there is judgment. And if a human of any age is without God and how He has us loving > "He who loves his life will lose it," Jesus says in John 12:25. Without Jesus, they would lose their lives, one way or another.
So, much of the early scriptures give us object lessons of how things can go, without Jesus: even God Himself did marvelous wonders and so proved Himself; yet even His own people left Him, a number of times. So, without His Son Jesus, even what God Himself does can not work!
But ones will demand more evidence and could get it. And still they might be like Pharaoh and end like he did.
Because, actually, the real proof is how Jesus in us shares all His own good of His love with us > "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)
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JohnDB
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And you don't know the half of it.
The Egyptians were one of the few who had written language. (Ugarit and I'm forgetting the other 2) At any rate they also used a solar calendar because they had an understanding of basic calculus. Now with this kind of knowledge they could accurately predict Solar and lunar eclipses.
So...at just the right time the Egyptians would call for an assembly of the Hebrews and let them know that Pharaoh was upset and was going to do something.
And sure enough Pharaoh would blast them for being so lazy...they needed to work harder...and because of their laziness he was going to take away the Sun.
Of course these ignorant Hebrews would cry out apologizing for their poor behavior...but sure enough the sun went into eclipse behind the moon....which made them cry out even more... And finally Pharaoh would forgive them if only they promised to really work hard and the solar eclipse would end. To those who didn't know any better it was a great display of power.
But then came Moses...
He had a different view of things. He spoke for the real God...kinda upset the apple cart. It certainly upset the Pharaohs.
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