Are Christians to Obey obey the Law of God?

  • yes

  • no

  • not sure


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Dkh587

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You can sing that wayward song of obeying what even YOU don't obey to the letter....which is the letter you're pointing at. Why point others to what you yourself don't believe and obey?

So, suffice it to say that we disagree, and it is what it is.

Jr
You can’t tell anybody what they are or are not obeying when you don’t even know how to obey what you say someone else isn’t obeying.
 
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SwordmanJr

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You can’t tell anybody what they are or are not obeying when you don’t even know how to obey what you say someone else isn’t obeying.

I have money in my cloths that says you are not keeping ALL the instructions in the Law of Moses on how to keep the sabbath holy. Your unwillingness to admit that obvious fact speaks loud volumes to us all.

Jr
 
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Dkh587

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I have money in my cloths that says you are not keeping ALL the instructions in the Law of Moses on how to keep the sabbath holy. Your unwillingness to admit that obvious fact speaks loud volumes to us all.

Jr
What do the instructions in the law of God say about how to keep the Sabbath holy?
 
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SwordmanJr

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What do the instructions in the law of God say about how to keep the Sabbath holy?

This game is getting to be like the snake eating its own tail. I quoted to you one of the items listed as keeping the sabbath holy, and you are avoiding it like you would a charging bull. Why? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? Why are you being so evasive?

Jr
 
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Dkh587

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This game is getting to be like the snake eating its own tail. I quoted to you one of the items listed as keeping the sabbath holy, and you are avoiding it like you would a charging bull. Why? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? Why are you being so evasive?

Jr
Actually, you didn’t.

You posted a verse about the penalty of not keeping the sabbath holy - death.

We can keep the the Sabbath holy without putting people to death.

The Messiah did it, Paul did it, and plenty of others have done it, and plenty of us still do it.

In fact, we don’t have a record of the Messiah putting anybody to death, yet we know he kept the law.

he taught against idolatry, murder, homosexuality, witchcraft and adultery, yet he didn’t put anybody to death.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Actually, you didn’t.

You posted a verse about the penalty of not keeping the sabbath holy - death.

We can keep the the Sabbath holy without putting people to death.

The Messiah did it, Paul did it, and plenty of others have done it, and plenty of us still do it.

In fact, we don’t have a record of the Messiah putting anybody to death, yet we know he kept the law.

he taught against idolatry, murder, homosexuality, witchcraft and adultery, yet he didn’t put anybody to death.

There you go again. Deflecting again!

YOU pointed at the Law of Moses as the definition of keeping the sabbath holy. Well, now, is the Law relevant or is it not? Now you're trying to use Jesus and the apostles as your excuse for NOT following the Law. Well, which is it? Is the Law relevant, or is it not?

Jr
 
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Dkh587

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There you go again. Deflecting again!

YOU pointed at the Law of Moses as the definition of keeping the sabbath holy. Well, now, is the Law relevant or is it not? Now you're trying to use Jesus and the apostles as your excuse for NOT following the Law. Well, which is it? Is the Law relevant, or is it not?

Jr
Of course the law of God is relevant - we wouldn’t know what sin is without the law of Moses.

I bring them up because I follow their example and keep the Sabbath holy like they did.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Of course the law of God is relevant - we wouldn’t know what sin is without the law of Moses.

I bring them up because I follow their example and keep the Sabbath holy like they did.

[Please keep in mind that my tone is conversational, not yelling.]

No you don't keep it! By your own admission you don't keep it according to the text of the Law of Moses. You made the claim that you yourself negated by your own admission. Putting to death violators is EXACTLY the words of the inspired word of God that you claim is still binding upon us today for obedience, and then you try the slight of hand, dealing off the bottom of the deck, about what Jesus and the apostles DIDN'T do!

Really?

Jesus FULFILLED the Law, and was obedient to the Law 100%. Had they brought a man to Him who was caught gathering wood on the sabbath and asked what they should do with him, you seem to think Jesus would have instructed OTHER than what the Law COMMANDED. Now you're suggesting Jesus was a hypocrite!

It obviously didn't occur to you that the apostle Paul didn't command that anyone be executed over breaches of the sabbath instructions for keeping it holy because they/we are not BOUND by the LETTER of the Law of Moses any longer. That's the reality you're excluding because you are SUBJECTIVE in your selection of what applies and what does not.

Any OBJECTIVE observer and follower would know that if you're going to lay claim to obedience to the letter of the Law, then you are BOUND by the standards of INTEGRITY and HONESTY to do what ALL of it says without some absolute, express language in the NT that would nullify any element of those instructions from the Law of Moses without adding to the text what isn't there.

You have no such text at which you can point, so your claim that we are bound to those instructions for keeping the sabbath holy ring very hollow, and without merit or meaningful weight. You've blown your case and don't even realize it.

Jr
 
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Dkh587

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[Please keep in mind that my tone is conversational, not yelling.]

No you don't keep it! By your own admission you don't keep it according to the text of the Law of Moses. You made the claim that you yourself negated by your own admission. Putting to death violators is EXACTLY the words of the inspired word of God that you claim is still binding upon us today for obedience, and then you try the slight of hand, dealing off the bottom of the deck, about what Jesus and the apostles DIDN'T do!

Really?

Jesus FULFILLED the Law, and was obedient to the Law 100%. Had they brought a man to Him who was caught gathering wood on the sabbath and asked what they should do with him, you seem to think Jesus would have instructed OTHER than what the Law COMMANDED. Now you're suggesting Jesus was a hypocrite!

It obviously didn't occur to you that the apostle Paul didn't command that anyone be executed over breaches of the sabbath instructions for keeping it holy because they/we are not BOUND by the LETTER of the Law of Moses any longer. That's the reality you're excluding because you are SUBJECTIVE in your selection of what applies and what does not.

Any OBJECTIVE observer and follower would know that if you're going to lay claim to obedience to the letter of the Law, then you are BOUND by the standards of INTEGRITY and HONESTY to do what ALL of it says without some absolute, express language in the NT that would nullify any element of those instructions from the Law of Moses without adding to the text what isn't there.

You have no such text at which you can point, so your claim that we are bound to those instructions for keeping the sabbath holy ring very hollow, and without merit or meaningful weight. You've blown your case and don't even realize it.

Jr
Nehemiah the prophet kept the Sabbath, yet he did not kill anybody for being disobedient to the Sabbath commandment. Scripture records him pleading with Israel to stop.

Nehemiah 13:13-22
In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading donkeys; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.

There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the Sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.

Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the Sabbath day? Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the Sabbath.

And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the Sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the Sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

So the merchants and sellers of all kind of ware lodged without Jerusalem once or twice.

Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no moreon the Sabbath.

And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the Sabbath day.

Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.

the commandment to keep the sabbath holy doesn’t require people to kill violators in order to keep it holy, but rather, death is the penalty for not keeping it holy.

It’s just like you can keep the commandments to not be an adulterer, idolater, wizard, homosexual, or murderer, yet not go around killing people because they are. We can’t execute the judgements in the law of God in foreign lands(in captivity)

the 3 Hebrew boys were thrown into the fire for not worshipping Nebuchadnezzar’s gods - they did not try to kill Nebuchadnezzar for his idolatry and worship of other gods.

would you say that they were not keeping the commandment to not worship other gods because they did not kill Nebuchadnezzar for worshipping gods other than the God of Jacob?
 
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SwordmanJr

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Nehemiah the prophet kept the Sabbath, yet he did not kill anybody for being disobedient to the Sabbath commandment. Scripture records him pleading with Israel to stop.

Nehemiah 13:13-22


the commandment to keep the sabbath holy doesn’t require people to kill violators in order to keep it holy, but rather, death is the penalty for not keeping it holy.

First of all, I never said that killing was required TO keep anything holy. What I pointed out is that violators were killed AFTER they failed to keep it holy. What Nehemiah did not do is of no consequence to this topic. He and the other prophets were not enforcers. The people were tasked with enforcement. The prophets were the mouths of God to the people. So, what Nehemiah did NOT do changes nothing in all this.

It’s just like you can keep the commandments to not be an adulterer, idolater, wizard, homosexual, or murderer, yet not go around killing people because they are. We can’t execute the judgements in the law of God in foreign lands(in captivity)

Let's stick to the topic at hand. We can talk about those other things later. Bottom line: You are not in keeping with the sabbath when others around you are doing what is not in keeping with its death letter definition for holiness. Remember, you are instructed to execute the offender. You don't do that, and I would never encourage you to do that. Why? Because the letter of the Law is never said to be over us.

the 3 Hebrew boys were thrown into the fire for not worshipping Nebuchadnezzar’s gods - they did not try to kill Nebuchadnezzar for his idolatry and worship of other gods.

That's a straw man argument. On center stage in all this is YOU! Shucking and jiving around to try and shift the spotlight elsewhere is not going to work. YOU are the one who has been speaking authoritatively about how everyone else needing to keep the sabbath holy in accordance with the Law of Moses. You are guilty of ALL the Law of Moses on the basis of your claims from your religion. YOU have failed to uphold the Law in your actions.

[Jas 1:23 KJV] 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Jr
 
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Dkh587

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First of all, I never said that killing was required TO keep anything holy. What I pointed out is that violators were killed AFTER they failed to keep it holy. What Nehemiah did not do is of no consequence to this topic. He and the other prophets were not enforcers. The people were tasked with enforcement. The prophets were the mouths of God to the people. So, what Nehemiah did NOT do changes nothing in all this.



Let's stick to the topic at hand. We can talk about those other things later. Bottom line: You are not in keeping with the sabbath when others around you are doing what is not in keeping with its death letter definition for holiness. Remember, you are instructed to execute the offender. You don't do that, and I would never encourage you to do that. Why? Because the letter of the Law is never said to be over us.



That's a straw man argument. On center stage in all this is YOU! Shucking and jiving around to try and shift the spotlight elsewhere is not going to work. YOU are the one who has been speaking authoritatively about how everyone else needing to keep the sabbath holy in accordance with the Law of Moses. You are guilty of ALL the Law of Moses on the basis of your claims from your religion. YOU have failed to uphold the Law in your actions.

[Jas 1:23 KJV] 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Jr
Nehemiah is not exempt from the law, yet he was not sinning for not executing people that he saw breaking the Sabbath.

You’ve yet to show us why I’m not keeping the Sabbath.

you’re too focused on why you are right, rather than reasoning with me.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Nehemiah is not exempt from the law, yet he was not sinning for not executing people that he saw breaking the Sabbath.

[Neh 13:21 KJV] 21 Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do [so] again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no [more] on the sabbath.

Looks like the threat of death was effective to those merchants. What threats do YOU level against those not keeping the Law of Moses? Do you even threaten them with what the Law of Moses commands?

You’ve yet to show us why I’m not keeping the Sabbath.

you’re too focused on why you are right, rather than reasoning with me.

How can I reason with someone who denies his own guilt? Look what you did that I quoted of your use of Nehemiah. He was prepared to ensure the Law of Moses was followed to the letter, but didn't have to after using threats.

So, again, who have YOU threatened lately with the death as prescribed by the Law of Moses? Anyone? After all, you fancy yourself a teacher of the Lawof Moses, so let's hear about your exploits of at least threatening Law breakers with a real death you're willing to meet out to them?

Nobody, you say? Hmm. So much for you being an authority to teach the Law of Moses when you're not even willing to fulfill its basic precepts.

Nothing to prove here except to observe that not even YOU are in obedience to that Law.

At least Nehemiah was willing to follow through with what the Law of Moses commanded....

Jr
 
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bbbbbbb

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Nehemiah is not exempt from the law, yet he was not sinning for not executing people that he saw breaking the Sabbath.

You’ve yet to show us why I’m not keeping the Sabbath.

you’re too focused on why you are right, rather than reasoning with me.

Well, am I correct in thinking that you eat hot food on the Sabbath which you cook in your home. If I am incorrect then please let me know and I will proceed to demonstrate to you very clear disobedience on your part to God's specific commandments in regard to His Sabbaths.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Well, am I correct in thinking that you eat hot food on the Sabbath which you cook in your home. If I am incorrect then please let me know and I will proceed to demonstrate to you very clear disobedience on your part to God's specific commandments in regard to His Sabbaths.

Wait a minute.....I don't go out and collect wood to cook or heat up food. After all, we're talking about the letter of the Law, right?

Jr
 
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SwordmanJr

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Well, am I correct in thinking that you eat hot food on the Sabbath which you cook in your home. If I am incorrect then please let me know and I will proceed to demonstrate to you very clear disobedience on your part to God's specific commandments in regard to His Sabbaths.

Additionally, I'm quite sure the Lord is not angry at me for cooking on the sabbath. I have the words of James, Peter and Paul as reason for not fearing my having cooked on the sabbath.

Is that a violation of what was commanded of Israel? Sure it is. I have no qualms with that.

What appears to be at issue here is the sensibilities of some who have chosen to place themselves under the curse of the Law. That's you people's problem, not mine.

Jr
 
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SwordmanJr

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Say, what if I sit in a wheel chair that reclines, but is high enough that I can place a pot on the gas or electric stove, always remaining in a reposed position of rest? Am I then guilty of the Law that I am not under, but you legalists are?

Hmm....

Jr
 
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bbbbbbb

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Wait a minute.....I don't go out and collect wood to cook or heat up food. After all, we're talking about the letter of the Law, right?

Jr

Yes, we are. The law says nothing about going out and collecting wood to cook or heat up food. Here is what it says:

Exodus 35:3 "You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

Notice that it simply forbids lighting (kindling) a fire in your house (dwelling) on the sabbath day. If you strike a match to light a cigar or any other device in your house on the sabbath, you have broken God's explicit commandment.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Yes, we are. The law says nothing about going out and collecting wood to cook or heat up food. Here is what it says:

Exodus 35:3 "You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

Notice that it simply forbids lighting (kindling) a fire in your house (dwelling) on the sabbath day. If you strike a match to light a cigar or any other device in your house on the sabbath, you have broken God's explicit commandment.

Yes, and you are also commanded the following from that same Law:

Exo 31:14 KJV - Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 KJV - Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 35:2 KJV - Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Now, if you are not going out and executing offenders, then are you at least seeking out justice for the breach of the Law of Moses, right? Are you keeping ALL the Law of Moses? If not, then are you under indictment for execution because of that? What are you doing to remain obedient to ALL the Law of Moses?

Jr
 
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bbbbbbb

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Yes, and you are also commanded the following from that same Law:

Exo 31:14 KJV - Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 KJV - Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 35:2 KJV - Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Now, if you are not going out and executing offenders, then are you at least seeking out justice for the breach of the Law of Moses, right? Are you keeping ALL the Law of Moses? If not, then are you under indictment for execution because of that? What are you doing to remain obedient to ALL the Law of Moses?

Jr

Thankfully, I am not a member of that covenant (or nation) and its laws and commandments are null and void for me. If you choose to put yourself under that covenant then it is up to you to find the proper authorities to enforce the terms of the covenant. Interestingly, you will look long and very hard to find any such authorities among any of the major Jewish groups.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Thankfully, I am not a member of that covenant (or nation) and its laws and commandments are null and void for me. If you choose to put yourself under that covenant then it is up to you to find the proper authorities to enforce the terms of the covenant. Interestingly, you will look long and very hard to find any such authorities among any of the major Jewish groups.

I fully agree with you. We are under a Covenant whereby the Law of Christ is written upon our hearts, which is VASTLY superior to the letter of law taught in synagogues.

Jr
 
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