Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

Which view of salvation is biblically correct.


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FreeGrace2

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The teachings of a "penalty for sin" are nor evident in the verses being discussed.
Are you so lacking in understanding that you are not aware that sin created a penalty?

Obviously you don't know what the Bible says about sin and penalty.

In Leviticus, 5 times we read about the "penalty for sin".

Job 8:4 - When your children sinned against him, he gave them over to the penalty of their sin.

If there is no "penalty for sin", then why did Jesus go to the cross?

You or your teachers have inserted them there in order to keep committing sin under the guise of being Christians.
This is simply pathetic. Paul wrote about his own CURRENT struggle with his own sin nature in Romans 7 and he admitted to Timothy that: "I AM the worst (of sinners)".

Your proof that Jesus didn't conquer sin while in the flesh can't deflect the faith I have in that same victory in me.
What nonsense! Of course Jesus conquered sin in the flesh. I never said otherwise. So please quit misquoting me, either from ignorance or on purpose.

I know you are, but "your truth" didn't free you from committing sin like Jesus said it would, in John 8:32-34.
Tell that to Paul, the greatest evangelist and theologian of all time. Your views are irrational.

A true statement indeed, if one is not walking in the light.
God is light and there is no darkness-sin in Him.
If we are walking in the light we must be as He is.
You have no excuse for your extremely poor reading of the text. John didn't include anything about "walking", either in light or darkness when he wrote v.8 that says "If WE claim to be without sin, WE are self deceived and have no truth in US.

The FACT that he used "we" means he was including himself in WHOEVER makes such a claim.
 
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JLB777

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I said:
"It's interesting how much Scripture you quote, yet not understanding any of it."

How is stating a fact an attack? I've repeatedly proven how much you fail to understand Scripture.



You will have to do better than attacking me with your malicious opinionated slander, claiming “you don’t understand” the scripture.


It’s nothing more than a childish fallacy, because the scripture has instructed you in the truth and simply don’t have an answer.


Christians who do not obey Jesus Christ, will not be given eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Obeying His commandments is how we love.

Disobedience to Him is the way of hate.


“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Here is how we remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



Knowing Him is eternal life.



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4





JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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You will have to do better than attacking me with your malicious opinionated slander, claiming “you don’t understand” the scripture.
So trying to correct a false idea is now "malicious opinionated slander", huh. Or is this just an underhanded ad hominem.

There is nothing "malicious" in trying to get someone to understand Scripture. In fact, it's an act of LOVE.

It’s nothing more than a childish fallacy, because the scripture has instructed you in the truth and simply don’t have an answer.
This is totally untrue, as you well know. I've answered EVERY question of yours.

Christians who do not obey Jesus Christ, will not be given eternal salvation.
Please define specifically what you mean by "obey" before I respond.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
There it is! Now, define what you think it means.

Obeying His commandments is how we love.
True.

Disobedience to Him is the way of hate.
Know what else is hate? Rejecting flat out what Jesus says so plainly in John 10:28, for which you don't have an answer. All you've given is a total perversion of v.27 and v.28.

You have rejected the FACT that those given eternal life by Jesus, which is the MOMENT one believes in Him for salvation, SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Your opinion is that recipients of eternal life can SURELY perish. So your opinion is in direct opposition to what Jesus said very clearly. That demonstrates a hatred for what Jesus said.

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15
Also, if you really love Jesus, you would believe everything He said.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
The word "abiding" is instructive. If no murderer has eternal life IN him, John would not have added the word "abiding", which I've explained thoroughly to you. And yet, you continue to reject the truth.

Here is how we remain in Christ.
You don't even know what that means.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Because you do not understand what "abiding" means.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Phil,

When a truly honest intellectual is presented facts that refute his ideas, he repents of them (changes his mind) and accepts the facts.

It is those who are dishonest intellectuals that just dig in and try to push back and keep defending their ideas, even though they have been refuted by facts.

You have been presented with facts that refute your claims. The more you dig in and push back, the deeper and deeper you are digging yourself a hole. This is simply negative volition. You are choosing to resist the truth of Scripture. You are harming yourself, and anyone who believes the things you claim.
 
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Gr8Grace

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There are a couple of reasons that I would question and disagree with the use of the ingressive aorist: 1) disbelief doesn't have a starting point, for we are all born unbelievers and, sans grace, unable to do anything but disbelieve, and 2) as I have pointed out to FreeGrace2, the context of 2 These 2:12 is a future event at the point of judgement, where the only thing that matters is the state of belief in the individual at that moment, irrespective of past states of belief.
Point 1: It isn't about the start of disbelief. The start/point/moment of belief is in view. "has not believed" The start/point/moment of belief has never occurred. Which takes us back to Acts 16:31. The start/point/moment of belief..........we are saved.

Point 2: Point 1 answers this. Eternal life/salvation/being born again is about the point/start/moment of belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is NEVER about a "state" of belief. People who abuse the present tense of belief/believe come up with the fallacy of "ongoing", "continuing" and such.

Take John 3:16 for example. Believe is in the present tense and the majority use it as "proof" that we need to presently believe in order to keep salvation. Utter nonsense. The verse isn't about us arrogant creatures and our individual belief. The verse is about the PURPOSE of the Lord Jesus Christ's life,death,burial and resurrection. "believe" is in the present tense and subjunctive mood.......because it is in a PURPOSE clause. It is stating the PURPOSE of the Son at this PRESENT time(which stands for all time.) Not some creatures 'present' belief.

Acts 16:31 IS about us arrogant creatures as individuals and our belief in Him. Hence the aorist tense of believe. The point/start/moment of belief.......we are saved.
 
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JLB777

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So trying to correct a false idea is now "malicious opinionated slander", huh. Or is this just an underhanded ad hominem.

There is nothing "malicious" in trying to get someone to understand Scripture. In fact, it's an act of LOVE.


This is totally untrue, as you well know. I've answered EVERY question of yours.


Please define specifically what you mean by "obey" before I respond.


There it is! Now, define what you think it means.


True.


Know what else is hate? Rejecting flat out what Jesus says so plainly in John 10:28, for which you don't have an answer. All you've given is a total perversion of v.27 and v.28.

You have rejected the FACT that those given eternal life by Jesus, which is the MOMENT one believes in Him for salvation, SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Your opinion is that recipients of eternal life can SURELY perish. So your opinion is in direct opposition to what Jesus said very clearly. That demonstrates a hatred for what Jesus said.


Also, if you really love Jesus, you would believe everything He said.


The word "abiding" is instructive. If no murderer has eternal life IN him, John would not have added the word "abiding", which I've explained thoroughly to you. And yet, you continue to reject the truth.


You don't even know what that means.


Because you do not understand what "abiding" means.


Abide means remain.

Very simple.


Those who remain in Christ, remain in eternal life.


Those who do not remain in Christ, are cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB
 
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Phil W

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Yet, the Bible teaches very clearly that anyone who claims to be without sin is self deceived and has no truth in them.
Your "clarity" makes 1 John 7 and 9 a lie.

In fact, Paul wrote about his own struggle with his own sin nature in Romans 7 and he wasn't describing past events. He wrote in the present tense, and there is NO reason to try to force the "historical present" in that chapter. There are no words to make that argument.
Your "clarity" overlooks Rom 6:6's previous answer for Rom 7:24's lament.
It also overlooks Rom 8:2's answer to Rom 7:23.

And, Paul admitted to Timothy that he considered himself to be the worst of sinners, and he wrote that in the PRESENT TENSE: "I AM the worst".
He was indeed the worst, as he was before his conversion a persecutor of Christ's church.
He was the worst of those saved.

All you can to is reject Scripture to hold to the notions you do.
What is needed is repentance of such sin. Come to your senses, as the prodigal finally did.
If I were to repent of this alleged sin, I would be able to say I had no sin...right?
The notion I reject is that Jesus didn't conquer sin while in the flesh and we can't partake in that victory after we have been "immersed" into Him and His death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
Your ways are oldness of life.
 
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Phil W

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Yet, the Bible teaches very clearly that anyone who claims to be without sin is self deceived and has no truth in them.
Your "clarity" makes 1 John 7 and 9 a lie.

In fact, Paul wrote about his own struggle with his own sin nature in Romans 7 and he wasn't describing past events. He wrote in the present tense, and there is NO reason to try to force the "historical present" in that chapter. There are no words to make that argument.
Your "clarity" overlooks Rom 6:6's previous answer for Rom 7:24's lament.
It also overlooks Rom 8:2's answer to Rom 7:23.

And, Paul admitted to Timothy that he considered himself to be the worst of sinners, and he wrote that in the PRESENT TENSE: "I AM the worst".
He was indeed the worst, as he was before his conversion a persecutor of Christ's church.
He was the worst of those saved.

All you can to is reject Scripture to hold to the notions you do.
What is needed is repentance of such sin. Come to your senses, as the prodigal finally did.
If I were to repent of this alleged sin, I would be able to say I had no sin...right?
The notion I reject is that Jesus didn't conquer sin while in the flesh and we can't partake in that victory after we have been "immersed" into Him and His death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Abide means remain.
I asked for an explanation of WHY John added "abide" if a murder has no eternal life. Why.

Very simple.
Then explain.

Those who remain in Christ, remain in eternal life.
Let me introduce you to a verse that you probably aren't aware of.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I suppose you don't know what is "guaranteed to come", so I'll help you out there as well.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice the aorist tense of the red words emphasizing that the believing occurred previously.

Notice the blue words are the Holy Spirit who is "the deposit", referring to His indwelling.

Notice the green words that refers to what is guaranteed; our inheritance.

Do you have any idea what "guarantee" means?

There it is.
Yes, it is. In color, no less.

Those who do not remain in Christ, are cast into the fire and burned.
You don't have any verse that says that. In fact, those who HAVE believed are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing the believer's inheritance.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Those who pay attention to context know that v.1-6 are about fruit bearing.

Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Obviously you didn't notice the key to understanding the verse, so I colored the words which obviously go with 2 Cor 1:22 and Eph 1:13,14.

So, NO one who has believed can ever "not be in Christ", so your notions that any believer may not remain in Him is false.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Your "clarity" makes 1 John 7 and 9 a lie.
No it doesn't. Your statement reveals your failure to understand.

Your "clarity" overlooks Rom 6:6's previous answer for Rom 7:24's lament.
It also overlooks Rom 8:2's answer to Rom 7:23.
None of those verses changes anything. In spite of the fact that you have rejected Paul's testimony about his own struggle with his sin nature, it's still true.

He was indeed the worst, as he was before his conversion a persecutor of Christ's church.
You may cease perverting Scripture. This is what he said to Tim:
"Christ came to save sinners, of whom I AM the worst."

He was the worst of those saved.
You just keep perverting Scripture by trying to force a past tense into the verse, which isn't there. He didn't say what you are trying to force the verse to say.

Since Paul's father was a Pharisee, and so was he, it goes to reason that he was extremely self righteous, like all the other Pharisees, who thought they were keeping the law.

Do you know what's far worse than a drunk in the gutter, or those who attend orgies? Highly self righteous people. They think they can please God by their own works. That's what Paul most likely had in mind when he admitted he was the worst of sinners, using the present tense "I AM the worst".

If I were to repent of this alleged sin, I would be able to say I had no sin...right?
You aren't even close to repenting, given your long history of rejecting Scripture.

The notion I reject is that Jesus didn't conquer sin while in the flesh and we can't partake in that victory after we have been "immersed" into Him and His death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
I've already told you that Jesus DID conquer sin while in the flesh. Why don't you pay attention?

By doing so, Jesus was fully qualified to die for our sins, and pay the sin debt.

Your ways are oldness of life.
Nope. You just refuse to understand.
 
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TibiasDad

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In fact, Paul wrote about his own struggle with his own sin nature in Romans 7 and he wasn't describing past events. He wrote in the present tense, and there is NO reason to try to force the "historical present" in that chapter. There are no words to make that argument.

There are, in fact, words and reasons to make that claim; you have to keep the wider context of chapters 6 and 8 in the picture, which is difficult for those who rely on isolationist tactics to pigeon-hole their proof texts.

Let's overview the flow of Rom 6-8 and see what direction Paul takes as he progresses through these chapters. (As an aside, it's good to remember that the original mss had no chapter and verse designations, and typically, very little punctuation, so to look at a manuscript was to look at, at times, a very long run-on sentence. I say this only to highlight that there is a connectivity of thought that is not easily.broken not should it be.)

Now, at what we would call the end of Romans chapter 5, Paul writes, "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Here Paul tells us what the purpose of the law was; not to provide a means of gaining salvation, but to exacerbate the reality of sin and its power over us through the increase of human acts of sin. In other words, the law is not the prescription for the cure of sin, it is a prognostic tool to reveal that we are sick!

This leads to the opening verses which we now refer to as chapter 6, saying:
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Paul is saying, that even though the law was given to increase the number of sinful actions, this does not mean that we, as Christians, should indulge in sinful behavior so that it would give God more opportunity for graciousness! μὴ γένοιτο. And why, is this? Because,
"we are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

This is a life that is no longer under the control of sin, no longer in slavery to that will contrary to God and righteousness! In fact, Paul goes on to say,
"though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness...When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."

So this far, we note that:
  • The purpose of the law was not to remedy sin, but to reveal is deadly, destructive, and determining power over us.
  • However, this does not mean that we let sin's power control us to allow grace to increase, nor is behavior irrelevant because we are under grace, not law! Nothing could be further from the truth, because,
  • We are (present tense reality) no longer slaves to sin, but are free to follow after righteousness which leads to holiness, which results in eternal life.
  • It is also important to note the use of the passive voice in reference to our freedom, namely, you have been set free from the law of sin and death, not by the written code, the 613 laws of the OT, but by the blood of Christ and the grace of God.
Now, as Paul continues into "chapter 7", his thought is still on the concept of slavery, saying:

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

In short, Paul is saying that those who are familiar with the law, know that a husband and wife are are only bound by law as long as both parties are alive, but when one dies, the other is free to remarry as they desire. Thus, since we died to our old husband, the law, we are no longer bound to this "husband", but can now be united to another, namely, Christ.

But note the tense change. Paul says "when we were in the realm of the flesh", under the power of the law, and thus, sin and death. This is a past tense reality, not a present tense reality in which, by contrast, we are no longer enslaved "to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. We are also that Paul uses the first person plural, which includes himself, as one who is no longer a slave to sin or its power through the law.

Paul now returns to the purpose of the law, as he did at the end of chapter 5, giving us more insight into what the law was meant to accomplish. He writes:

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

So here we note:
  • The law was intended to teach us what defines sin, and what types of specific behaviors in contrast to others are expressions of that sinfulness, thereby,
  • Revealing the ugliness of sin in contrast to the goodness of the law's requirements.
  • But we also note that the tense change to past tense(either aorist, or imperfect, not perfect, or we would see it written as a present tense) seen earlier is still being used almost exclusively, and that Paul is talking about himself in the first person.
  • Note also, and this most importantly, more than tenses and other technical aspects, what Paul speaks of regarding his spiritual condition, saying he was dead, and deceived.

Then we reach the controversial section of the chapter, but it only controversial for one reason, because of the "present tense" first person, "I am"! But the issue is not the present tense ἐγὼ εἰμι, but rather I am what? The answer is the determination of what point in his life he is referring to:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Note how Paul describes his "present tense" spiritual condition:
  • I am unspiritual,
  • sold as a slave to sin.
  • I do not understand what I do.
  • For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
  • And if I do what I do not want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
  • making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
  • What a wretched man I am

So we've looked at chapters 6 and 7 and this is the picture of Paul's life depicted in each chapter

Chapter 6:
  • We are (present tense reality) no longer slaves to sin
  • we are those who have died to sin
  • slaves to righteousness...
  • We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
  • alive to God in Christ Jesus
Chapter 7:
  • I am unspiritual,
  • sold as a slave to sin.
  • I do not understand what I do.
  • For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
  • And if I do what I do not want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
  • making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
  • What a wretched man I am
Now to chapter 8- one of my favorites, if not my favorite in all of scriptures.

The opening proclamation sets the tone of the whole chapter and the "present tense" reality of both Paul and those to whom he addressed these words:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you a free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

In these four verses, we find the "present tense" reality of the Christian life starting with:
  • No condemnation
  • Set free from the law of sin and death
  • Able to meet all the righteous requirements of the law
  • Able to not live according to the flesh
  • Able to live according the Spirit
As the chapter goes on, the list continues with:
  • not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit,
  • We have no obligation to the flesh
  • are the children of God
  • God is working for the good of believers
  • More than conquerors
So what can we draw from the progressive "present tense" descriptions Paul gives about the Christian spiritual condition :

Chapter 6:
  • We are (present tense reality) no longer slaves to sin
  • we are those who have died to sin
  • slaves to righteousness...
  • We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
  • alive to God in Christ Jesus

Chapter 7:
  • I am unspiritual,
  • sold as a slave to sin.
  • I do not understand what I do.
  • For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
  • And if I do what I do not want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
  • making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
  • What a wretched man I am
And finally...

Chapter 8
  • No condemnation
  • Set free from the law of sin and death
  • Able to meet all the righteous requirements of the law
  • Able to not live according to the flesh
  • Able to live according the Spirit
  • not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit,
  • We have no obligation to the flesh
  • are the children of God
  • God is working for the good of believers
  • More than conquerors

It is interesting that chapters 6 and 8 coincide with each other perfectly in there descriptions of the "present tense" reality of the believer, but chapter 7 is completely antithetical to the two chapters that surround it, and yet, we are to believe that the descriptions of these realities are simultaneously true;
  • that Paul is both a slave to sin and able to not be obligated to the flesh,
  • that he is no longer able live a life sinning yet at the same time not able to control his sinful appetites,
  • that he is both alive spiritually and dead spiritually
And all this is his present tense state of being as he pens, or dictates this information to those that are under his leadership! Add to this violation of the law of non-contradiction the fact that the context of Paul's words in chapter 7 as he goes into the "I am" descriptions is past tense in every way, and simply adds another nail to the coffin of this idea that the Apostle Paul was experiencing the descriptions in chapter 7 in real time as he penned the words. You would never allow a pastor of your church to stand up and say that he was a slave to sin, and unable to control his proclivity to sin, much less if, at the same time, he claimed it impossible for one to be a believer and continue to live a life of sin. I know my church wouldn't let me be a pastor and admit to such a non-victorious life style.

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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Take John 3:16 for example. Believe is in the present tense and the majority use it as "proof" that we need to presently believe in order to keep salvation. Utter nonsense. The verse isn't about us arrogant creatures and our individual belief. The verse is about the PURPOSE of the Lord Jesus Christ's life,death,burial and resurrection. "believe" is in the present tense and subjunctive mood...

πιστεύων is a present, active, participle, nominative, male, singular. The Subjunctive clause, μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν, follows, or is the result of the πιστεύων.

Doug

Addendum, I forgot the hina in the above, but this makes the purpose reflective of "he sent his only son" , not the believing.
Furthermore, as an aside, why wouldn't the aorist be used if the punctiliar action is all that is necessary?

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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I couldn't help but lol when I read this response to gr8grace. The 2 verses of discussion ARE "cut and dried". There SHOULDN'T be anything to debate.

But you can't even read the verses correctly, and gr8grace was more eloquent than I.

There is no time frame in either verse for "have not believed". Neither writer was speaking about in the past week, month, year, or decade. They both simply said "have not believed".

Do you think "have not believed" is somehow different than "did not believe"? If so, please explain.

Given your claim to Greek training, you sure don't show much understanding of English words.

And yet Gr8Grace said the the formation of my argument to the contrary was "technically right", if I recall correctly.

Doug
 
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FreeGrace2

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There are, in fact, words and reasons to make that claim; you have to keep the wider context of chapters 6 and 8 in the picture, which is difficult for those who rely on isolationist tactics to pigeon-hole their proof texts.
Do you hold to the view that a born again saved person no longer has a sin nature to contend with?

Let's be clear. What Paul wrote in ch 7 isn't changed by either ch 6 or 8. It's his personal testimony.

It seems you're just trying to explain away what you don't agree with.

This is a life that is no longer under the control of sin, no longer in slavery to that will contrary to God and righteousness! In fact, Paul goes on to say,
"though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness...When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."
Just read the choices believers have in ch 6. That puts the whole of ch 7 in proper focus.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

These are choices that believers face every day. If believers no longer have sinful natures, none of what Paul wrote in these verses would be relevant to saved people. And they wouldn't be relevant to unbelievers, either, because they don't have the power source (Holy Spirit) in them to make the right choice.

But note the tense change. Paul says "when we were in the realm of the flesh", under the power of the law, and thus, sin and death. This is a past tense reality, not a present tense reality in which, by contrast, we are no longer enslaved "to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. We are also that Paul uses the first person plural, which includes himself, as one who is no longer a slave to sin or its power through the law.
Just go back to ch 6 and the choices facing every believer.

Then we reach the controversial section of the chapter, but it only controversial for one reason, because of the "present tense" first person, "I am"! But the issue is not the present tense ἐγὼ εἰμι, but rather I am what?
It's only "controversial" to those who have the unbiblical view that believers no longer have a sinful nature. It's not controversial to anyone else.

Paul was very clearly testifying to his own struggle with his own sin nature.

The answer is the determination of what point in his life he is referring to:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
The red words PROVE that Paul WAS speaking in his current present tense. The red words cannot refer to his former life as an unbeliever, because the 'inner being' of an unbeliever does NOT "delight in God's law".

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
Because Jesus paid the sin debt that every human being owed.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"I couldn't help but lol when I read this response to gr8grace. The 2 verses of discussion ARE "cut and dried". There SHOULDN'T be anything to debate.

But you can't even read the verses correctly, and gr8grace was more eloquent than I.

There is no time frame in either verse for "have not believed". Neither writer was speaking about in the past week, month, year, or decade. They both simply said "have not believed".

Do you think "have not believed" is somehow different than "did not believe"? If so, please explain."
And yet Gr8Grace said the the formation of my argument to the contrary was "technically right", if I recall correctly.

Doug
If you are so "technically correct", then why not just answer my very straightforward question:

Is "have not believed" somehow different than "did not believe"?

Or, is "have not believed" somehow different than "never believed"?

If there is a real difference, then please explain coherently.

I claim they are one and the same. All 3 phrases communicate the SAME INFORMATION.

Now, if you are so technically correct, it should be easy to refute my claim.
 
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JLB777

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I asked for an explanation of WHY John added "abide" if a murder has no eternal life. Why.


Then explain.


Let me introduce you to a verse that you probably aren't aware of.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I suppose you don't know what is "guaranteed to come", so I'll help you out there as well.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice the aorist tense of the red words emphasizing that the believing occurred previously.

Notice the blue words are the Holy Spirit who is "the deposit", referring to His indwelling.

Notice the green words that refers to what is guaranteed; our inheritance.

Do you have any idea what "guarantee" means?


Yes, it is. In color, no less.


You don't have any verse that says that. In fact, those who HAVE believed are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing the believer's inheritance.


Those who pay attention to context know that v.1-6 are about fruit bearing.


Obviously you didn't notice the key to understanding the verse, so I colored the words which obviously go with 2 Cor 1:22 and Eph 1:13,14.

So, NO one who has believed can ever "not be in Christ", so your notions that any believer may not remain in Him is false.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



I find it alarming that anyone who is a Christian, could believe and promote the idea that a Christian, is not required to obey the commandments of the Lord to love God and love His children, for salvation.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


That by default means that Christians can hate and murder and lie, treated their brothers and sisters without love, no differently than the world, and still be welcome in God’s kingdom on the Day of Judgement, when we will all stand before our Lord, to give an account.


Obeying the Lord to forgive is also something if ignored will result in our own forgiveness being rescinded.


Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35


JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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I asked:
"I asked for an explanation of WHY John added "abide" if a murder has no eternal life. Why."
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

I find it alarming that anyone who is a Christian, could believe and promote the idea that a Christian, is not required to obey the commandments of the Lord to love God and love His children, for salvation.
So, instead of providing an answer or explanation to my question, you retreat to emotionalism.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
The question continue to GLARE. Why did John include "abiding" if the message would have been MUCH MORE CLEAR to just say this:

"no murderer has eternal life in him".

The reason, which you seem to want to dodge, is that abiding changes how you want the verse to read. In fact, your view reads the verse AS IF the "abiding" isn't even there. But it is. For a reason. One that you don't want to know.

That by default means that Christians can hate and murder and lie, treated their brothers and sisters without love, no differently than the world, and still be welcome in God’s kingdom on the Day of Judgement, when we will all stand before our Lord, to give an account.
Let's be clear here, ok? Can you handle some intellectual honesty? Believers who live like you describe here are subject to God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11), which can include death by Satan (1 Cor 5:5), or at least PAIN by Satan (1 Tim 1:19,20).

Why do you always ignore this biblical fact?

Obeying the Lord to forgive is also something if ignored will result in our own forgiveness being rescinded.
Your opinion as no basis in Scripture.

Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35

JLB
In other words, if a believer doesn't forgive others, that is a sin. And unless the believer repents and confesses that sin, God won't forgive and cleanse him from that sin.

It's all very straightforward and clear in Scripture. We've been over all this many times.
 
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TibiasDad

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Do you hold to the view that a born again saved person no longer has a sin nature to contend with?

Let's be clear. What Paul wrote in ch 7 isn't changed by either ch 6 or 8. It's his personal testimony.

It seems you're just trying to explain away what you don't agree with.

No, I do not, and fishing for reasons to disagree with me beyond what I actually say.

I am not "trying to explain away what don't agree with", I am giving my reasons for disagreeing with your position. Thus, the rest of your argumentation falls apart for being based on another strawman.



Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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In other words, if a believer doesn't forgive others, that is a sin. And unless the believer repents and confesses that sin, God won't forgive and cleanse him from that sin.

And if that sin isn't forgiven and cleansed can that believer go to heaven?

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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If you are so "technically correct", then why not just answer my very straightforward question:

Is "have not believed" somehow different than "did not believe"?

Or, is "have not believed" somehow different than "never believed"?

If there is a real difference, then please explain coherently.

I claim they are one and the same. All 3 phrases communicate the SAME INFORMATION.

Now, if you are so technically correct, it should be easy to refute my claim.

You would have to ask Gr8Grace what his reasoning was for using that term!

Doug
 
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