WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - UPDATED.

Tradidi · Jul 10, 2020

Albion said:
We are to be baptized. You know that from Scripture and nothing else is needed for you to know it. Do you suppose that which day of the week or which Christian must be the baptizer for you to be properly baptized? The Catholic Church, by the way, does not insist that it be a deacon, priest, or bishop.

Are infants to be baptised? Scripture does not tell us explicitly, but if baptism is a matter of life and death, and Scripture says it is, then we better get it right.

True, the Catholic Church teaches that anyone can baptise, provided he does so correctly.

Tradidi · Jul 10, 2020

redleghunter said:
Now the proof the traditions by word were not written down sometime in the lives of the Apostles.

Better still, the proof that they were all written down.

redleghunter said:
Or better, where do we now find these oral traditions.

1. From whom did the Apostles hear the word of God? From Jesus.

2. From whom did the Apostolic Fathers hear the word of God? From the Apostles.

3. From whom did the Early Church Fathers hear the word of God? From the Apostolic Fathers.

4. From whom did the early Christians hear the word of God? From the Early Church Fathers.

5. From whom did the next generation hear the Word of God? From the previous generation.

6. Repeat 5 until you arrive at our generation.

Hence the name, Tradition.

Tradidi · Jul 10, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
Must say good night.
Please start a thread and tag me in.
Maybe. Can the CC change a doctrine?
I can think of one right now....

I'd be willing to listen to the specific example you have in mind. But I see no sense in starting an open ended thread where each man and his dog can slander the Catholic Church to his hearts content. I'm not very good at multi tasking, but I'll do my best to tackle one issue at a time.

Athanasius377 · Jul 10, 2020

Tradidi said:
I'd be willing to listen to the specific example you have in mind. But I see no sense in starting an open ended thread where each man and his dog can slander the Catholic Church to his hearts content. I'm not very good at multi tasking, but I'll do my best to tackle one issue at a time.

I would recommend a different thread where we can set out the rules and if the thread gets too far off topic rest assured it will get cleaned up. Since material and formal sufficiency seems to be an area you’re will to discuss why don’t come up with a suitable thesis and I will come up with a suitable antithesis and I’ll start a new thread in the proper forum. If it gets too far off topic then hit report. We do this sort of thing all the time. Folks shouldn’t have to read 8 or 9 pages in a thread to get to the heart of the matter. Remember there are plenty of folks that read our posts without commenting.

cheers

redleghunter · Jul 10, 2020

Tradidi said:
Better still, the proof that they were all written down.

If they were not how do we know them.

Tradidi said:
1. From whom did the Apostles hear the word of God? From Jesus.

2. From whom did the Apostolic Fathers hear the word of God? From the Apostles.

3. From whom did the Early Church Fathers hear the word of God? From the Apostolic Fathers.

4. From whom did the early Christians hear the word of God? From the Early Church Fathers.

5. From whom did the next generation hear the Word of God? From the previous generation.

6. Repeat 5 until you arrive at our generation.

Then we should know exactly what those Traditions are. Can you list them?

Athanasius377 · Jul 10, 2020

Tradidi said:
Better still, the proof that they were all written down.

1. From whom did the Apostles hear the word of God? From Jesus.

2. From whom did the Apostolic Fathers hear the word of God? From the Apostles.

3. From whom did the Early Church Fathers hear the word of God? From the Apostolic Fathers.

4. From whom did the early Christians hear the word of God? From the Early Church Fathers.

5. From whom did the next generation hear the Word of God? From the previous generation.

6. Repeat 5 until you arrive at our generation.

Hence the name, Tradition.

RLH brings up a good point. Where
Can we find this tradition. The Jews have the Talmud which is the tradition and a commentary. They managed to produce such a work under terrible persecution. Rome has ha d 2000 years. Where can I find this tradition?

redleghunter · Jul 10, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
RLH brings up a good point. Where
Can we find this tradition. The Jews have the Talmud which is the tradition and a commentary. They managed to produce such a work under terrible persecution. Rome has ha d 2000 years. Where can I find this tradition?

Interesting the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) which many Catholics point to answer this question was instituted by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

Tradidi · Jul 10, 2020

redleghunter said:
If they were not how do we know them.

Handing down truth, or any information for that matter, is not limited to the written word only. Initially, before (/after) the Scriptures were written, the word of God was passed down exclusively (/predominately) by word of mouth. Jesus never wrote a single word, except when He wrote in the sand. Btw, tradition (with a lower case) tells us what it was that He wrote in the sand. St. Paul never received his teaching directly from Jesus, but from the Apostles through their oral teaching. If oral tradition was able to faithfully transmit the faith between Peter and Paul, it can also work between Paul and Timothy, and between Timothy and his disciples, etc.

redleghunter said:
Then we should know exactly what those Traditions are. Can you list them?

I cannot list them all, just as I cannot list all the teachings that one can find in the Scriptures. I can list some of them, the Church can list quite a few more, and the Holy Spirit can list them all. But at the end of the day, they can also be found in Scripture, although not always explicitly, and certainly not always in a manner that can be understood without a reliable teacher.

redleghunter · Jul 10, 2020

Tradidi said:
Handing down truth, or any information for that matter, is not limited to the written word only. Initially, before (/after) the Scriptures were written, the word of God was passed down exclusively (/predominately) by word of mouth.

That is not the witness of the Holy Scriptures. Jesus said many times “It is Written.” (Matthew 4)

In fact we see “it is written” throughout the OT and NT as seen here:

It is Written

And quite often we have the prophets proclaim “Thus saith the LORD” as we see here:

Thus saith the LORD

Meaning Holy Scriptures attest to the very words and commands of God.

God wrote the Law with His Finger. (Exodus 31:18)

Tradidi said:
Jesus never wrote a single word, except when He wrote in the sand.

Yet we know what Jesus said because we have a written account in the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.

Tradidi said:
St. Paul never received his teaching directly from Jesus, but from the Apostles through their oral teaching. If oral tradition was able to faithfully transmit the faith between Peter and Paul, it can also work between Paul and Timothy, and between Timothy and his disciples, etc.

This is quite incorrect.

Perhaps review Galatians chapter 1 where Paul claims the opposite of what you claim.

Verses 10-12 most pertinent:

10Am I now seeking the approval of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11For I certify to you, brothers, that the gospel I preached was not devised by man. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:10-12)

Tradidi · Jul 11, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
I would recommend a different thread where we can set out the rules and if the thread gets too far off topic rest assured it will get cleaned up. Since material and formal sufficiency seems to be an area you’re will to discuss why don’t come up with a suitable thesis and I will come up with a suitable antithesis and I’ll start a new thread in the proper forum. If it gets too far off topic then hit report. We do this sort of thing all the time. Folks shouldn’t have to read 8 or 9 pages in a thread to get to the heart of the matter. Remember there are plenty of folks that read our posts without commenting.

cheers

Done, here it is: Sola Scriptura: Are the Scriptures Sufficient as a Rule of Faith?

LoveGodsWord · Jul 11, 2020

Tradidi said:
Done, here it is: Sola Scriptura: Are the Scriptures Sufficient as a Rule of Faith?

Goodness, your asking the question is scripture sufficient as a rule of faith? Well of course it is. It is the only rule of faith. When the bible uses the term "the faith" it is talking about the teachings of the Word of God as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the very Word of God. If one denies the Word of God they deny "the faith" and to deny "the faith" (the Word of God) is to deny salvation which is only received by faith as we believe and follow God's Word. There is no faith if there is no Word and if no faith only sin and sin will keep all those who practice it out of God's kingdom. Our salvation is by faith in the very word of God that this thread claims is not sufficient. Therefore what is being taught here is against the faith in my view and another Gospel which is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the last days we are warned that many will depart "the faith" (the teachings of the Word of God) before Jesus returns. Something for everyone to consider and pray about.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 11, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
Hey LGW
What a great post!
Have I ever told you how much I admire your knowledge of scripture?

Here is how I'VE learned:
When I became born again many years ago, I had never read the bible -- I was Catholic. Since I then came to have spiritual needs I did not have before and the CC could not supply them,,,,I changed denomination.

I began to read the bible and to study it with the second denomination...a very basic and good church. (Nazarene). As I studied the bible I did not want to be brainwashed and wanted to understand everything on my own,,,so I checked everything carefully, as the Bareans did.

You can take a verse from the bible and understand it in different way....even scholars do. So I do agree with you that we are responsible to God for our own understanding and the fact that we live what we believe.

I'm not sure this is enough however. I've heard some declare Faith Alone. This is a lie and cannot be true, yet some believe it fervently. I DO believe that they pick and choose which verse to believe because if the entire N.T. is read, it becomes apparent that Jesus wants us to DO something and not just "believe". In quotation marks because BELIEVE actually means also to OBEY.

Maybe we should just be adhering to Jesus' teachings only? Is this the Jesus Only movement, which I know nothing about?

I've always like what you say about God "winking" at us and I agree with this because God is a very big and Almighty God and sometimes we reduce HIM to OUR understanding.

Anyway, thanks for such a great reply!

Hey GG, Sorry little slow in getting back to this thread. All thanks to God dear sister as they are God's Words not mine. He promises to be everyones guide and teacher if we seek him to know his Words. This is a part of the new covenant promises to those who wish to seek and follow Jesus *John 7:17; Hebrews 8:11; 1 John 2:27; John 14:26; John 16:13; John 8:31-36; John 17:17.

It sounds like God is guiding and teaching you as well. How great is our God who send His Spirit to be our guide and teacher as we seek him through his Word.

I believe where many make the mistake is that they seek to know Gods' Word outside of Gods' Word to understand his truth. That is the reasons for the many different church's and doctrines we see today. That does not mean that God does not have his people in all of these church's I believe he does but the hour is coming and now is that the true worshippers will worship him in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth. God is calling his people out from fallen Babylon (apostate christianity) back to the pure Word of God. God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him while those who do not hear will not follow because they are not his sheep.

In my view there is only truth in God's Word and as Jesus says our very life depends on it when he says, Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. All scripture is given by inspiration of God (God breathed).... It is only in God's Word we can know what God's truth as His Word is the standard of all truth *John 6:63 and it is through his Word that he guides us and teaches us through the promise of His Spirit as we seek him for it. Our salvation is by faith and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

God bless

LoveGodsWord · Jul 12, 2020

There is no salvation without Gods Word.

Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith (faith comes by the Word of God); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Romans 14:23 ...whatsoever is not of faith is sin

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Matthew 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

According to the scriptures no word = no faith and no faith = no salvation. Now how about you prove that scripture is not all sufficent?

.................

Yep seems like "ALL SCRIPTURE" seems pretty sufficient to me don't you think?

Hope this helps.

FredVB · Oct 24, 2020

There is no salvation without Gods Word.

Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

This is not simply the written Bible. People do get saved without yet reading the Bible already, certainly without the entirety of the Bible. They need to hear the gospel of Christ, which is essential of what is the word of God, knowing needed things about who Jesus Christ is, believing him and trusting him, who came for us and whom we are to follow, and who died on a cross and rose again after that, for us and our salvation with atonement for our sins which separated us from God. We do need to trust the Bible, the word of God as originally written, through the language of the original writers who were inspired from the Spirit of God. Not believing the scriptures would mean not believing the same Jesus, though. And God knows the hearts, and is the one exclusively knowing each of whom belongs to God, through Christ.

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

FredVB said:
This is not simply the written Bible. People do get saved without yet reading the Bible already, certainly without the entirety of the Bible. They need to hear the gospel of Christ, which is essential of what is the word of God, knowing needed things about who Jesus Christ is, believing him and trusting him, who came for us and whom we are to follow, and who died on a cross and rose again after that, for us and our salvation with atonement for our sins which separated us from God. We do need to trust the Bible, the word of God as originally written, through the language of the original writers who were inspired from the Spirit of God. Not believing the scriptures would mean not believing the same Jesus, though. And God knows the hearts, and is the one exclusively knowing each of whom belongs to God, through Christ.

John 1:1-3, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created."

Jesus is the Word; the Bible is the Word. One is in human form, the other is a collection of writings. Both are the Word of God, just different forms.

Albion · Oct 24, 2020

FredVB said:
This is not simply the written Bible. People do get saved without yet reading the Bible already, certainly without the entirety of the Bible.

They need to hear the gospel of Christ, which is essential of what is the word of God, knowing needed things about who Jesus Christ is, believing him and trusting him, who came for us and whom we are to follow, and who died on a cross and rose again after that, for us and our salvation with atonement for our sins which separated us from God.[/quote]
What you are describing IS the Bible, but in a different form, like hearing it read to you from a recording (which you can get in the shape and dimensions of a pocket-sized radio for only $29.95, according to the TV commercial I saw just this morning!)

iamlamad · Oct 24, 2020

Tradidi said:
Better still, the proof that they were all written down.

1. From whom did the Apostles hear the word of God? From Jesus.

2. From whom did the Apostolic Fathers hear the word of God? From the Apostles.

3. From whom did the Early Church Fathers hear the word of God? From the Apostolic Fathers.

4. From whom did the early Christians hear the word of God? From the Early Church Fathers.

5. From whom did the next generation hear the Word of God? From the previous generation.

6. Repeat 5 until you arrive at our generation.

Hence the name, Tradition.

Something happened along the way. Someone misheard or someone misunderstood, or both. Every Generation must learn the word of God and base their beliefs on what is written. It is good to check our beliefs with what those who went before believed.

FredVB · Oct 28, 2020

FredVB said:
People do get saved without yet reading the Bible already, certainly without the entirety of the Bible. They need to hear the gospel of Christ, which is essential of what is the word of God, knowing needed things about who Jesus Christ is, believing him and trusting him, who came for us and whom we are to follow, and who died on a cross and rose again after that, for us and our salvation with atonement for our sins which separated us from God. We do need to trust the Bible, the word of God as originally written, through the language of the original writers who were inspired from the Spirit of God. Not believing the scriptures would mean not believing the same Jesus, though. And God knows the hearts, and is the one exclusively knowing each of whom belongs to God, through Christ.

pescador said:
John 1:1-3, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created."

Jesus is the Word; the Bible is the Word. One is in human form, the other is a collection of writings. Both are the Word of God, just different forms.

Jesus is the Word, Logos, with God who is God. The Bible is the word of God. It is not the same word, and they are not different forms of the same thing. The Bible is not the Creator. As the word of God, it (not He) shows what we need to know, including how to live. Jesus the incarnate Logos, Word with God who is God, lived accordingly by it, and was obedient to the heavenly Father, God, through it.

Albion said:
They need to hear the gospel of Christ, which is essential of what is the word of God, knowing needed things about who Jesus Christ is, believing him and trusting him, who came for us and whom we are to follow, and who died on a cross and rose again after that, for us and our salvation with atonement for our sins which separated us from God.

Click to expand...

What you are describing IS the Bible, but in a different form, like hearing it read to you from a recording (which you can get in the shape and dimensions of a pocket-sized radio for only $29.95, according to the TV commercial I saw just this morning!)

I was not saying something excluding that. Some people I have heard in the past, Camping included, have said all the Bible is the gospel, all of it needs to be believed, for the gospel to be believed. Actually the gospel of Christ is the power of salvation, people believing the gospel of Christ are saved, though they do not then know what things are said in the Bible, which does still certainly include this gospel. So when any of us have heard the gospel of Christ for salvation, we have heard from the word of God, of course it is from the Bible. Those saved should learn from the Bible then, believing it. We all need that, it is really valuable to us and our growth. But none of us lose salvation without that, it is with Christ himself that we are saved.

Psalm 52.8 · Oct 29, 2020

I do wonder if those who stress sola scripture always adhere to it:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Romans2:14&15

The above is sola scripture too

LoveGodsWord · Oct 30, 2020

Psalm 52.8 said:
I do wonder if those who stress sola scripture always adhere to it:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Romans2:14&15

The above is sola scripture too

Yep, so your point?

WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - UPDATED.

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